Help Needed - SES Codes 215,225,227,235(INPA)

[jfoj]

Originally Posted by upallnight

You must be from the school of throwing parts at a problems instead of actually doing some investigative work to verify what is the problem.

No, I usually fully diagnose and investigate faults very thoroughly, however, I have been working on vehicles for a LONG time and I have found that there are some things that are not worth screwing around with.

Unlike a weak battery that can leave you stranded, a weak battery can be jump started and in some cases the car can be roll started. Additionally weak batteries do not typically cause problems while driving, they can, but RARELY do.

When a fuel pump starts to have problems it can leave you in a bad situation on the road or in traffic and not IF, but WHEN it fails it will generally leave you stranded where you are. No jump starting, roll starting or other things other than a tow will get you going again.

There are some subsystems that are not worth screwing around with.

Many, many BMW models have a very clear history of fuel pumps that both hard fail and soft fail. Fuel pump life has very little to do with actual mileage, it has to do with run hours. A highway queen may have far more miles and far fewer run hours then a city queen that spends its time in stop and go traffic and idling at traffic lights. It seems that approximately 5000 hours is about the expected lifespan of many fuel pumps.

I find that after about 8 years you are on borrowed time.

When I bought my E70 X5 with 66k miles on it, I quickly replaced the fuel pump as PM replacement. The fuel filter is integrated into the fuel pump and I know all too well about the E46, E39, E38 series fuel pumps. I had a number of 1100 mile trips I was going to be making once I purchased the X5 and made a conscience decision to replace the fuel pump on MY schedule, not on the CARS schedule.

It was not worth the risk of me being stranded and the headache and inconvenience.

I had a spare fuel pump for my E46 on the shelf for 2 1/2 years before I replaced it. The E46 is a city dweller and is never far from home. I had planned on replacing it on the cars 8th birthday, but the weather got the best of me and I missed my mark by about 2 weeks. Temps dropped to below 20F and one morning I went out to start the car and the FPR was moaning, I knew the pump was on very borrowed time. Drove the car that day, then next morning, no start. Did I diagnose anything, no, I knew the car needed a fuel pump, I had the fuel pump, I had planned on installing the fuel pump and did not get to it.

So rather that even opening the hood, I went out, pulled the rear seat and replaced the fuel pump in 14 minutes. Yea, the colder it gets, the faster I work.

Now I am glad I replaced the pump proactively on my E70. BMW has extended the Warranty on the E70 fuel pumps, they know they have issues. Additionally, the E70 fuel pump replacement is not a 14 minute swap! I would not have been very happy replacing the pump on the side of the road or in below freezing weather.

Again, do what you what, others will do what they want, but based on my driving style and schedule as knowing it is not IF, but WHEN the pump will go soft or just hard fail, I replace fuel pumps by the cars 8th birthday.

[LeiZ]

Thanks for all the inputs. I really appreciate it. Yesterday I cleared the codes and see if it comes back today. Meanwhile, the fuel gauge is arriving Friday so I will report back once I have the fuel pressure date.

As for the fuel trim data, I'm a little too green to figure out how to do that. Any suggestion will be appreciated.

Thanks again!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jfoj]

Hopefully the fuel pressure gauge you are getting has a bleeder port to measure fuel volume as well? Not many have this feature.

As for Fuel Trim values, need to know what OBDII tool you are using.

And for all the naysayers out there that claim there is nothing to be concerned about the OP's fuel pump, I mean come on, the pump is likely the original and at least 14 years old, how many years to you expect it to last beyond 14 years and its is amazing it is still working at this point. Also keep in mind MILEAGE has very little to do with an electric fuel lifespan, it is all an hours based wear issue. Keep in mind for every second the engine is running, the fuel pump is also running, even while you are stopped at a traffic light and the vehicle mileage is not moving the pump continues to run and the brushes continue to wear.

The Pierburg pumps seem to last a bit longer than the Siemens/VDO pumps, not exactly sure why, but this vehicle likely still has the original fuel pump installed. 5 minutes to pull the rear seat and check for to see if the sound proofing has been cut or disturbed will give you and idea as to what is going on with the vehicle if the past history is unknown.

[jfoj]

It does not matter why the O2 sensors were replaced, often when they are replaced, fresh O2 sensors are more active and sensitive and will trigger other codes that older, lazy O2 sensors may miss.

Additionally, with the EXCEPTION of a failed heater circuit, I never see any O2 sensor related codes that are actually for a failed or lazy O2 sensor. Almost any code that references an O2 sensor, with the exception of a failed heater circuit, tend not to be anything to do with O2 sensors.

This is the problem with people that do not think and even the industry Pros, if a sensor is mentioned in a DTC, they automatically condemn the sensor. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG way of doing business.

Addition, there is no O2 sensors testing software that works that I have found, nothing what so ever. I use a $4 App and Log the O2 sensor from cold start. I can find bad O2 sensors all day long that never trigger any O2 sensor codes and that never trigger any DTC's. Any yes, I have more money wrapped up on Pro level tools and software than you have in your vehicle and I still use my $4 App all day long to flag and condemn bad sensors that pass every where else.

The OP does not need to do anything with his current O2 sensors other than to verify the wiring is not swapped Bank to Bank.

I will post an example of some O2 sensors that never had any errors, BUT, they were causing the SAP Readiness Monitor to no turn to Ready/Clear/Pass. I just need to access the files.

[bcredliner]

Problem here is there are codes without symptoms.

Always start with troubleshooting, even when the problem seems obvious, in particular stuff that doesn't cost much and easy to do that will narrow it down to the root cause.

Since the codes are primarily limited to bank one I would first check the wire connections on the O2 sensors on that bank. If they are fine you could swap the sensors side to side to see if code moves to Bank 2. Not sure how you can have them connected to the wrong bank because of the distance they are apart from one another. Pre cat O2 sensors are primarily dedicated to fuel trim. Post cat are primarily dedicated to emissions but depending on the engine it can also influence fuel trim a bit. I would check plug holes on bank 1 for oil and if none pull those plugs and see how they look. You could also have an injector that is plugged on that bank (could start with filling up with gas that has Techron in it and adding a bottle to the tank). It could also be a coil on that bank.

Beyond that, fill the tank, clear the codes and see if they return before a 1/4 tank. Check for vacuum leaks--smoke test is best but spraying carb cleaner around typical vacuum leak areas will sometimes find a leak (engine will increase rpms). Common place for vacuum leak is the air intake tube near the throttle body. Clean the MAF with MAF cleaner. You could have rented--with full refund of rental cost when it is returned--a fuel pressure tool at major auto parts stores. Check the air filter, mostly for grins, but ya never know.

[jfoj]

Not twisting any words here, stating what needs to be stated.

Your "testing" of O2 sensors with what ever software you are using is SO wrong it is not even funny. This is just like the Pro techs that look at the O2 sensor Voltage swings and "think" they can determine a good vs a bad sensor, you can't do that under almost ever circumstance.

Here is a VERY clear example of verifying good vs lazy O2 sensors. The cold start behavior is CRITICAL to determine the sensor health. Note this graph is from an E46 and the deep "V" negative Voltage swing is due to the SAP running and pumping extra air into the exhaust stream. You can see how the old sensors do not react like the fresh sensors react.

TOO many people "think" they know how to monitor and test things, there is no software that I have found that will do this automatically because there are no software developers that understand how to accurately and properly flag lazy sensors.

The other reason the OP is likely suffering all the sudden from Lean codes is due the overnight temps dropping into the upper 30F to lower 40F.

Vacuum leaks and weak fuel pump are PRIME reasons for the cold start errors on a 10+ year old BMW I6. This is nothing new.

[Helihover]

Originally Posted by jfoj

Not twisting any words here, stating what needs to be stated.

Your "testing" of O2 sensors with what ever software you are using is SO wrong it is not even funny. This is just like the Pro techs that look at the O2 sensor Voltage swings and "think" they can determine a good vs a bad sensor, you can't do that under almost ever circumstance.

Here is a VERY clear example of verifying good vs lazy O2 sensors. The cold start behavior is CRITICAL to determine the sensor health. Note this graph is from an E46 and the deep "V" negative Voltage swing is due to the SAP running and pumping extra air into the exhaust stream. You can see how the old sensors do not react like the fresh sensors react.

TOO many people "think" they know how to monitor and test things, there is no software that I have found that will do this automatically because there are no software developers that understand how to accurately and properly flag lazy sensors.

The other reason the OP is likely suffering all the sudden from Lean codes is due the overnight temps dropping into the upper 30F to lower 40F.

Vacuum leaks and weak fuel pump are PRIME reasons for the cold start errors on a 10+ year old BMW I6. This is nothing new.

So using INPA, which was designed by BMW engineers, for they're BMWs, I can not diagnose a bad O2 sensor? Seems kind of wierd.... What about ISTA? Will that diagnose a bad O2 sensor?

[jfoj]

Shaking my head!

I am not just talking/responding specifically to you, Trader4, I am involved with MANY forums and I typically understand that MANY, MANY people read, but few contribute. SO, my comment are almost always stated for ANYONE might read the thread now or 2 years from now that might not agree with my comments or statements, my response was directed toward all the general observers of this or any thread I contribute to. So you may or may not be a "naysayer", your choice!

Nothing wrong with the O2 sensors from my take, if the O2 sensors were not registering/reading well, they would not be able to detect the wide swing in fuel mixture for the bank. The 215 - P0139 code is probably due to a severe Lean condition the DME cannot overcome or correct for. If the OP had a generic OBDII tool that supported Live/Realtime data and Freeze Frame info, I think there would be a lot more data to review and understand what the Fuel Trims are for each bank and under what driving conditions.

I mentioned that the OP might want to verify they are correctly wired in polarity if they were "Universal" fit sensors and to verify the wiring is connected to the correct Bank. It is kind of hard to swap the Bank wiring up and only have errors for a single bank, but I have seen it all where the pre and post cat sensors were swapped on a Bank, not very easy to pull off, but I think I have seen it all at one point or another.

I would like to know from the OP if the sensors were "direct fit" meaning they had the connectors on the end of the pigtail or "universal" sensors which only have bare wires on the pigtail and the original connector needs to be spliced onto the sensor. This helps understand how and why things may have gone wrong during replacement of the sensors.

And just since nobody seems to do the heavy lifting, here is the full translation of the codes listed below. This was gather from the Bentley Manual and often I find errors in the Bentley code descriptions and/or repeats or duplicates. Notice that all but one of these codes is related to Bank #1 which is typically the furthest away from the fuel rail inlet.

215 - P0139 O2 Sensor Circuit Slow Response (Bank 1, Sensor 2)

225 - P1192 Post Catalyst Fuel Trim System (Bank 1)

227 - P1314 Fuel Mixture Deviation Detected with Low Fuel, this code also seems to show up as a generic fuel system error as well and typically not bank dependent.

235 - shows up for both P1091 OR P1092! 235 shows up in duplicate in the Bentley listings.

P1091 = Pre Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Lean (Bank 1) which I tend to buy

P1092 = Pre Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Rich (Bank 1), I do not buy this based on the other codes.

[jfoj]

Originally Posted by Helihover

So using INPA, which was designed by BMW engineers, for they're BMWs, I can not diagnose a bad O2 sensor? Seems kind of wierd.... What about ISTA? Will that diagnose a bad O2 sensor?

None of them work well enough.

But lets talk about "diagnosing" a bad O2 sensor. No output, this does not happen often, probably any basic tool will show this. Lazy, slow to respond and slow to warm up sensors, no, because many of the tools were written by software people that do not understand the automotive world. Also most tools written by manufacturers never take into account soft failures or degraded sensors. They typically think in black and white, go or no go, it works or it doesn't.

Look at the graph I posted above. That data was gathered with a $4 App.

Then I can take the data and do what ever I want with it. You can clearly see how the bad O2 sensors are very slow to warm up and function. This car had no error codes relating to the O2 sensors, but had other problems that were related to lazy and slow to respond O2 sensors.

I could go on for WEEKS and WEEKS and WEEKS about how EVERYONE misses the fact that OBDII/EOBD is a very powerful and useful system. People think manufacturer tools and software are the best or only tools to use, but more often than not the smart phone/tablet Apps that can gather and Log the standard and manufacturer specific PID's are far more useful than much of the manufacturers software.

There is not one tool for any vehicle. EVERYONE needs a decent OBDII smart phone/tablet App and interface, regardless of what other tools that want or may already have. If the SES/CEL/MIL lights up on the dashboard, ANY Generic ODBII tool can and will read the codes that triggered the SES/CEL/MIL. There are what are known as manufacturer specialized or proprietary codes that only more advanced Pro scan tools or manufacturer specific software or tools can read, but more often than not any codes that do not trigger the SES/CEL/MIL for driveability are not very useful and they are rarely are the holy grail of a solution.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

Of course you're twisting words. You claimed:

"for all the naysayers out there that claim there is nothing to be concerned about the OP's fuel pump"

neither I now anyone else ever said anything even close to that. What
I and Upallnight said was that it seems premature to change a fuel pump
based on some vague codes. And there is a fourth code, which hasn't
been identified, in the process of being set. Heh, no need to figure out
what that other code is, right? No, just change the fuel pump.

" if a sensor is mentioned in a DTC, they automatically condemn the sensor. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG "

That's true, but again, I didn't condemn the sensor. All I said was
that since the O2
sensors had been recently replaced and now codes are showing up that
rely on the O2 readings, looking at that would be appropriate. Apparently
you think so too, you told him to verify that they were not cross connected.
Like that is the *only* possibility? Can't be a bad connection that's now
been disturbed. Can't be a short, or open? Of course it can.

Obviously the basic testing that I can do with my PC software will
show if it's open, shorted, voltage is totally out of range. That is
probative, too bad you have a problem with it. I never said it was
a definitive, absolute test. But he has been fiddling with the O2
sensors prior to the problem. It's clearly a good idea to make sure
they have basic functionality. But no, let's just go change that
fuel pump instead, without even doing a pressure test. Go figure.

Please, please, please not again please.