Battery for E53 2005 4.4i

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by andrewwynn

I think (and still not sure) that it came off that I said you would "have to" do some testing on your own to determine the end of life state is a battery. I was simply saying that the normal process that 95% of people will do (charge up your battery take to a battery store and get a load test done) can report a false negative (that battery is good but isn't). for *whatever* reason.

I was saying it happened to me about a year ago. I've worked a LOT with batteries including designed and built battery chargers, I was stumped so I shared my story because if it happened to me It will happen to others.

I simply said : "if the same happens to you, here is a possible route to take".

Not challenging what happened to you and doesn't matter to me what route anyone takes or what if any charger/tester they have. In my pea brain a load test is a capacity test. https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/b...-tests-a1.html You can test it with low load for a longer period of time or a greater load for a shorter period of time. I see it as apples to apples. Both tests are on a fully charged battery and based on battery specs. If a bad battery can pass a properly done greater load for shorter period of time capacity test, why don't they do a small load for a longer period time rather than risk losing a battery sale or irritating a customer? Why would any MFG design a commercial battery tester that didn't do the slow method rather than the fast one? Don't get that at all.

If the only reason one needs a charger/tester is to see if a battery is bad every 4 years or so I can see why there is no need to have one. I wouldn't think of them as DIYers if that is the only use they have for one.

[andrewwynn]

 Battery capacity test.
Battery Capacity Test: Perform a battery load test to see if service or replacement is necessary. First determine the load by retrieving the CCA from the battery case and reducing this number by half. The discharge rate is one half of the batteries cold cranking rating. Apply this load to the battery for 15 seconds. The battery's voltage must remain above 9.6 volts at 70° F.

This is the PRECISE test my dead battery PASSED. It was the entire point of me sharing my example with the world.

(Also it's not a capacity test it's only an estimate just like the CCA "test" done at 25C is just an estimate based on test curves and math).

Example: drive your car only highway for an hour or so, your DTE will be very optimistic compared to reality when you switch to all city driving. the DTE estimate isn't "wrong" it's just not clairvoyant.

My battery put out 500A for 15 to 30 seconds and held over 9.6v.

That same battery had previously not been able to start my car (200-220A) after 25 minutes of running an iPhone.

(Hence why I went to get a load test (and they also did the quick capacity test as described above)

So, I figured I must have left something on or FSU was killing my battery until a week or so later when after leaving my hazzards on for no more than 8 minutes, again I could not start my car and I needed to use my booster pack.

(This same battery never had a problem first start every time at zero F, even a couple starts in a row without running to charge).

I literally had a 700A strong but 0.2AH capacity battery.

I am FOR CERTAIN not the only person this has happened to and will not be the last, so: again just pointing out to people that may find themselves in the identical predicament, test don't guess, even if "they swear" the battery is good, it can be end of life failed even when it passes the tests.

I only wish I still had the battery so I could test it more throughly.

If I had similar symptoms in the future, I would go get a load test (and quick capacity test) and if the battery passed I personally would do a longer test of the actual capacity as the mfgr does eg pull 1/20 of the AH rating and see how long it takes to reach the mfg cut off voltage (probably 9.6 or 10v). It's a real world and simple thing anybody can do, they just need some device that pulls a few A and some time and a voltage measuring tool.

For those that have a tool like the 7002 that's awesome for them, doesn't help the other 99%

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by andrewwynn

 Battery capacity test.
Battery Capacity Test: Perform a battery load test to see if service or replacement is necessary. First determine the load by retrieving the CCA from the battery case and reducing this number by half. The discharge rate is one half of the batteries cold cranking rating. Apply this load to the battery for 15 seconds. The battery's voltage must remain above 9.6 volts at 70° F.

Residual battery voltage is not the test. It is the rate of discharge based on a particular amp draw over a particular amount of time. Small amount of amps over a longer time. Larger amount for shorter period of time.

This is the PRECISE test my dead battery PASSED. It was the entire point of me sharing my example with the world.

(Also it's not a capacity test it's only an estimate just like the CCA "test" done at 25C is just an estimate based on test curves and math).

Example: drive your car only highway for an hour or so, your DTE will be very optimistic compared to reality when you switch to all city driving. the DTE estimate isn't "wrong" it's just not clairvoyant. Distance to empty is not a valid example. DTE changes based on the current amount in the tank and the current consumption rate, it is always an estimate. The battery testing formula is not an estimate.

My battery put out 500A for 15 to 30 seconds and held over 9.6v.

That same battery had previously not been able to start my car (200-220A) after 25 minutes of running an iPhone.

(Hence why I went to get a load test (and they also did the quick capacity test as described above) Capacity test is another name for a load test. They are the same test. The common term is a load test.

So, I figured I must have left something on or FSU was killing my battery until a week or so later when after leaving my hazzards on for no more than 8 minutes, again I could not start my car and I needed to use my booster pack.

(This same battery never had a problem first start every time at zero F, even a couple starts in a row without running to charge).

I literally had a 700A strong but 0.2AH capacity battery.

I am FOR CERTAIN not the only person this has happened to and will not be the last, so: again just pointing out to people that may find themselves in the identical predicament, test don't guess, even if "they swear" the battery is good, it can be end of life failed even when it passes the tests. 1 in 5, 1 in 1000, 1- in a trillion. What is your guess for a perspective.

I only wish I still had the battery so I could test it more throughly.

If I had similar symptoms in the future, I would go get a load test (and quick capacity test) and if the battery passed I personally would do a longer test of the actual capacity as the mfgr does eg pull 1/20 of the

For those that have a tool like the 7002 that's awesome for them, doesn't help the other 99%

I just mentioned that is what I have not what is required. You can spend as little as $30 dollars on a load tester if that is all you want to do.

Why are you suggesting to go have a load test done if you already believe the industry standard for testing is inconclusive. Just do your test and if it tests good there is no reason to go to the store, if it tests bad still no reason to have the store test it and then have to try to explain to them why their test if flawed.

Your link took me to a site to buy a printer cartridge

[andrewwynn]

You are adding more than I've said ever.

I simply said that by my example of it really happened to me: a standard load + capacity test gave my battery a clean bill of health and was wrong. Then followed up with if it happens to you, consider that the test may have been inaccurate before you replace the starter or alternator chasing the problem.

What will typically happen in such a case (battery tests ok) is somebody will assume that means the problem lies elsewhere. That can be a very costly proposition.

The battery testing formula is of course an estimate. They measure for 15 seconds and estimate the long term capacity of the battery. It uses a *formula* so by definition is an extrapolation of capability. It's more accurate than the DTE in most cases but in some cases clearly the load test is way off.

I would bet 1/100 to 1/1000 odds of repeating the high current low capacity situation I had.

Regardless if people call load capacity or vice versa there are two very different and distinct ratings for batteries that will be on every car battery sold:

CCA and AH.

Cold Cranking Amps and Amp-Hours.

CCA a measure of how fast the battery can deliver charge when cold. This is almost always a calculated estimate because batteries are not fabricated at 0° F and the testers use estimate curves to predict a CCA based on ambient temp and current at that temp.

That is a measurement of LOAD. Not in any way shape or form "capacity"

Capacity of a battery is measured in amp•hours, and can ONLY be measured over time there are no short cuts.

Typically a battery will be subjected to a load such as 5A and the time it takes (hours) to drain to 1.75v/cell will give you the amp•hours (an 80AH battery should give you about 16 hours of 5A discharge for example)

I own hardware for capacity testing batteries: it has FETs and big heat sinks and a fan. It will pull a calibrated drain from a battery and will shut off at a design limit say 3.0v for LiON cell. I've never seen a commerically available tool for testing a car battery capacity only load capability.

I've seen people CALL a load test a capacity test; it assuredly is not. It's a "capability test". Pulling half the CCA from a battery for 15 seconds is a good test of it's capability, it has no relationship in any way to the AH or capacity of a battery.

I am instructing people in the normal care of a suspected end of life battery: the first thing to do if a battery makes itself suspect (old, requires a jump start more than once and no known drain), you of course charge it up (typically a solid drive of an hour is enough to do a test but overnight on a charger is better) then go get a load test.

99 or 99.9% of the time that will be conclusive, most often when an old battery can't start a car after you have left the lights on for 10-30 minutes, coincidentally the amp capability has been diminished and the battery will fail a load test and it's a clear cut case of end of life.

SOME of the time the battery will pass a load test; and some people will even say a "capacity" test (which cannot be done in seconds or minutes but takes large parts of days).

There will absolutely be somebody that chimes in eventually "me too".

I've had MANY MANY MANY batteries fail in this way: countless. Back in the day with NiMH chemistry they used the term "memory effect" to describe the case of a battery that would not lose current nor voltage capability but would lose mAH capacity.

I've only had ONE of many CAR batteries do this. It had at least 3/4 of it's new amp capability but lost maybe 95-98% of it's AH capability.

Put on a charger and it just saw the battery as fully charged, pull 500A out for 5 seconds and it maintained voltage. Pull 1/2A for 20 minutes and voltage dropped to 9.6V.

Jump start and it's fully charged in 20 minutes ready to sit a week and start the car without a problem.

So, yes a very odd case probably 1 in 1000. But if somebody else can realize it's the battery not the alternator or starter and learn from my real world example my job here is done.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by andrewwynn

You are adding more than I've said ever.

I simply said that by my example of it really happened to me: a standard load + capacity test gave my battery a clean bill of health and was wrong. Then followed up with if it happens to you, consider that the test may have been inaccurate before you replace the starter or alternator chasing the problem.
Yes, you did say that, not challenging your battery was bad
What will typically happen in such a case (battery tests ok) is somebody will assume that means the problem lies elsewhere. That can be a very costly proposition.
Troubleshoot, troubleshoot, troubleshoot. My suggestion is always to troubleshoot before replacing anything. Too often members jump to conclusions based on their personal experience rather than recommend troubleshooting to be sure of root cause.
The battery testing formula is of course an estimate. They measure for 15 seconds and estimate the long term capacity of the battery. It uses a *formula* so by definition is an extrapolation of capability. It's more accurate than the DTE in most cases but in some cases clearly the load test is way off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula

I would bet 1/100 to 1/1000 odds of repeating the high current low capacity situation I had. Has it ever come up since you became a member. To best of my knowledge it hasn't while I have.

Regardless if people call load capacity or vice versa there are two very different and distinct ratings for batteries that will be on every car battery sold:

CCA and AH.

Cold Cranking Amps and Amp-Hours.

CCA a measure of how fast the battery can deliver charge when cold. This is almost always a calculated estimate because batteries are not fabricated at 0° F and the testers use estimate curves to predict a CCA based on ambient temp and current at that temp.

That is a measurement of LOAD. Not in any way shape or form "capacity"

Capacity of a battery is measured in amp•hours, and can ONLY be measured over time there are no short cuts. https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/experience/2014/01/what-does-cold-cranking-amps-cca-mean

Typically a battery will be subjected to a load such as 5A and the time it takes (hours) to drain to 1.75v/cell will give you the amp•hours (an 80AH battery should give you about 16 hours of 5A discharge for example)

I own hardware for capacity testing batteries: it has FETs and big heat sinks and a fan. It will pull a calibrated drain from a battery and will shut off at a design limit say 3.0v for LiON cell. I've never seen a commerically available tool for testing a car battery capacity only load capability.

I've seen people CALL a load test a capacity test; it assuredly is not. It's a "capability test". Pulling half the CCA from a battery for 15 seconds is a good test of it's capability, it has no relationship in any way to the AH or capacity of a battery. https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/experience/2014/01/what-does-cold-cranking-amps-cca-mean

I am instructing people in the normal care of a suspected end of life battery: the first thing to do if a battery makes itself suspect (old, requires a jump start more than once and no known drain), you of course charge it up (typically a solid drive of an hour is enough to do a test but overnight on a charger is better) then go get a load test.

99 or 99.9% of the time that will be conclusive, most often when an old battery can't start a car after you have left the lights on for 10-30 minutes, coincidentally the amp capability has been diminished and the battery will fail a load test and it's a clear cut case of end of life. To load test the battery must be fully charged https://itstillruns.com/do-battery-l...t-8096415.html

SOME of the time the battery will pass a load test; and some people will even say a "capacity" test (which cannot be done in seconds or minutes but takes large parts of days). https://www.ecmweb.com/content/benefits-battery-capacity-testing

There will absolutely be somebody that chimes in eventually "me too".

I've had MANY MANY MANY batteries fail in this way: countless. Back in the day with NiMH chemistry they used the term "memory effect" to describe the case of a battery that would not lose current nor voltage capability but would lose mAH capacity. http://blog.chiltondiymanuals.com/short-history-electric-car-batteries

I've only had ONE of many CAR batteries do this. It had at least 3/4 of it's new amp capability but lost maybe 95-98% of it's AH capability. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it

Put on a charger and it just saw the battery as fully charged, pull 500A out for 5 seconds and it maintained voltage. Pull 1/2A for 20 minutes and voltage dropped to 9.6V. The reading from a battery charger or multimeter has nothing to do with capacity. The only reason to read the battery voltage is to verify the battery is fully charged before doing a load test. Applying any amp load to a battery for any length of time changes the capacity. There can be some recovery but that is not considered in a load/capacity test. This is from your post #24---That all said: normally bc is correct, a load test *should* by all means give you a definitive answer about the battery condition, but only a long term load test (eg pull 10A for half a day) will test the battery fully. Nobody ever performs that test but it really should be done occasionally. An 80AH battery should be able to run a 1A load for 80 hours, and a 10A load for maybe 6A for 10-11 hours (internal resistance costs you some storage the higher the draw). This is how this started for me. These instructions are incomplete and incorrect. The amount of draw and time are specific to the battery being tested. And the test is to determine the time it takes to get to a specific amp level. No test numbers can be universally applied. And says nothing about the battery must be fully charged, removing any surface charge etc.


Jump start and it's fully charged in 20 minutes ready to sit a week and start the car without a problem.

So, yes a very odd case probably 1 in 1000. But if somebody else can realize it's the battery not the alternator or starter and learn from my real world example my job here is done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery About 100 million batteries are sold annually. Using 1 in 1000 that would mean that 100,000 batteries each year using the universal standard for testing tested good that were actually bad? And with even one tenth of that amount of errors accumulating over decades the standard for testing would not change according? How is that possible? Do you disagree with the documentation I have provided?

[talljames]

Ok guys, three pages of back and forth...really? Thanks for the great reading and sharing but if you want to continue may I suggect you start up another thread. I dont want this one to be closed by the moderator. I am happy that you have both said your piece and therefore now let the judgements lie.

I will post again when I get some more info. cheers!

[StephenVA]

Ok enough.
I will try NOT to continue this unique discussion on battery testing approaches and thoughts.
Having spent years in the battery tester world, a battery load test with one that can actually carbon pile a 1/2 cold (ZERO) amp output load, followed by a charging system test (Volts, Amp load, ripple, dio test) will pin point 99% of all surface charged, cell wall collapsed, soon to be dead, and wasted batteries, along with poor performing alternators with all sorts of ailments. Having sold thousands of units and tested 100,000 + batteries across the entire US market with that approach, I can say that "if it is questionable THROW IT AWAY". Batteries are cheap compared to a tow.

Surface only charged batteries cause more issues and shop returns. TEST TEST and more TESTs should pin point the failure.

You both are OK, lots more important issues in the DIY world to focus on as most of this back and forth is in the ASE/SAE Engineering scope level of conversation. WAY WAY beyond this forum.

Photo: Example of an analog version with 500 amp load capacity. Era 2000 designed in 1950! Number 1 shop level tester sold for 40 years. Replaced by the digital one 1997, still out sold the digital one for another 8 years.... Work horse. This one is my own. Solved lots of "my car will not start again" pain... WHAT? Doesn't everyone have a $1,000 VOLT Amp Tester sitting around?

Next topic!

[talljames]

So I picked up a battery tester and it arrived from the states. These small portable units are selling like hot cakes. Anyway, lifted out the spare wheel and hooked it up.

I had previously done a bit of driving around so I figure the battery is probably not fully charged but should pass the load test. Here is the result for a 780 CCA.

I think the result speaks for itself.



I then took the engine up to 1500 revs as instructed and the result showed the charging system is still ok.



So, another battery required. Will let you know which one I get.

Oh, by the way the rear wheel is now snug as a bug with its new fixing plate.



Cheers, and thanks guys!

[StephenVA]

So I understand completely, The first test shows battery voltage with engine off, Correct?

[bcredliner]

Battery must be fully charged to do a load test.