Battery for E53 2005 4.4i

[andrewwynn]

You are adding more than I've said ever.

I simply said that by my example of it really happened to me: a standard load + capacity test gave my battery a clean bill of health and was wrong. Then followed up with if it happens to you, consider that the test may have been inaccurate before you replace the starter or alternator chasing the problem.

What will typically happen in such a case (battery tests ok) is somebody will assume that means the problem lies elsewhere. That can be a very costly proposition.

The battery testing formula is of course an estimate. They measure for 15 seconds and estimate the long term capacity of the battery. It uses a *formula* so by definition is an extrapolation of capability. It's more accurate than the DTE in most cases but in some cases clearly the load test is way off.

I would bet 1/100 to 1/1000 odds of repeating the high current low capacity situation I had.

Regardless if people call load capacity or vice versa there are two very different and distinct ratings for batteries that will be on every car battery sold:

CCA and AH.

Cold Cranking Amps and Amp-Hours.

CCA a measure of how fast the battery can deliver charge when cold. This is almost always a calculated estimate because batteries are not fabricated at 0° F and the testers use estimate curves to predict a CCA based on ambient temp and current at that temp.

That is a measurement of LOAD. Not in any way shape or form "capacity"

Capacity of a battery is measured in amp•hours, and can ONLY be measured over time there are no short cuts.

Typically a battery will be subjected to a load such as 5A and the time it takes (hours) to drain to 1.75v/cell will give you the amp•hours (an 80AH battery should give you about 16 hours of 5A discharge for example)

I own hardware for capacity testing batteries: it has FETs and big heat sinks and a fan. It will pull a calibrated drain from a battery and will shut off at a design limit say 3.0v for LiON cell. I've never seen a commerically available tool for testing a car battery capacity only load capability.

I've seen people CALL a load test a capacity test; it assuredly is not. It's a "capability test". Pulling half the CCA from a battery for 15 seconds is a good test of it's capability, it has no relationship in any way to the AH or capacity of a battery.

I am instructing people in the normal care of a suspected end of life battery: the first thing to do if a battery makes itself suspect (old, requires a jump start more than once and no known drain), you of course charge it up (typically a solid drive of an hour is enough to do a test but overnight on a charger is better) then go get a load test.

99 or 99.9% of the time that will be conclusive, most often when an old battery can't start a car after you have left the lights on for 10-30 minutes, coincidentally the amp capability has been diminished and the battery will fail a load test and it's a clear cut case of end of life.

SOME of the time the battery will pass a load test; and some people will even say a "capacity" test (which cannot be done in seconds or minutes but takes large parts of days).

There will absolutely be somebody that chimes in eventually "me too".

I've had MANY MANY MANY batteries fail in this way: countless. Back in the day with NiMH chemistry they used the term "memory effect" to describe the case of a battery that would not lose current nor voltage capability but would lose mAH capacity.

I've only had ONE of many CAR batteries do this. It had at least 3/4 of it's new amp capability but lost maybe 95-98% of it's AH capability.

Put on a charger and it just saw the battery as fully charged, pull 500A out for 5 seconds and it maintained voltage. Pull 1/2A for 20 minutes and voltage dropped to 9.6V.

Jump start and it's fully charged in 20 minutes ready to sit a week and start the car without a problem.

So, yes a very odd case probably 1 in 1000. But if somebody else can realize it's the battery not the alternator or starter and learn from my real world example my job here is done.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by andrewwynn

You are adding more than I've said ever.

I simply said that by my example of it really happened to me: a standard load + capacity test gave my battery a clean bill of health and was wrong. Then followed up with if it happens to you, consider that the test may have been inaccurate before you replace the starter or alternator chasing the problem.
Yes, you did say that, not challenging your battery was bad
What will typically happen in such a case (battery tests ok) is somebody will assume that means the problem lies elsewhere. That can be a very costly proposition.
Troubleshoot, troubleshoot, troubleshoot. My suggestion is always to troubleshoot before replacing anything. Too often members jump to conclusions based on their personal experience rather than recommend troubleshooting to be sure of root cause.
The battery testing formula is of course an estimate. They measure for 15 seconds and estimate the long term capacity of the battery. It uses a *formula* so by definition is an extrapolation of capability. It's more accurate than the DTE in most cases but in some cases clearly the load test is way off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula

I would bet 1/100 to 1/1000 odds of repeating the high current low capacity situation I had. Has it ever come up since you became a member. To best of my knowledge it hasn't while I have.

Regardless if people call load capacity or vice versa there are two very different and distinct ratings for batteries that will be on every car battery sold:

CCA and AH.

Cold Cranking Amps and Amp-Hours.

CCA a measure of how fast the battery can deliver charge when cold. This is almost always a calculated estimate because batteries are not fabricated at 0° F and the testers use estimate curves to predict a CCA based on ambient temp and current at that temp.

That is a measurement of LOAD. Not in any way shape or form "capacity"

Capacity of a battery is measured in amp•hours, and can ONLY be measured over time there are no short cuts. https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/experience/2014/01/what-does-cold-cranking-amps-cca-mean

Typically a battery will be subjected to a load such as 5A and the time it takes (hours) to drain to 1.75v/cell will give you the amp•hours (an 80AH battery should give you about 16 hours of 5A discharge for example)

I own hardware for capacity testing batteries: it has FETs and big heat sinks and a fan. It will pull a calibrated drain from a battery and will shut off at a design limit say 3.0v for LiON cell. I've never seen a commerically available tool for testing a car battery capacity only load capability.

I've seen people CALL a load test a capacity test; it assuredly is not. It's a "capability test". Pulling half the CCA from a battery for 15 seconds is a good test of it's capability, it has no relationship in any way to the AH or capacity of a battery. https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/experience/2014/01/what-does-cold-cranking-amps-cca-mean

I am instructing people in the normal care of a suspected end of life battery: the first thing to do if a battery makes itself suspect (old, requires a jump start more than once and no known drain), you of course charge it up (typically a solid drive of an hour is enough to do a test but overnight on a charger is better) then go get a load test.

99 or 99.9% of the time that will be conclusive, most often when an old battery can't start a car after you have left the lights on for 10-30 minutes, coincidentally the amp capability has been diminished and the battery will fail a load test and it's a clear cut case of end of life. To load test the battery must be fully charged https://itstillruns.com/do-battery-l...t-8096415.html

SOME of the time the battery will pass a load test; and some people will even say a "capacity" test (which cannot be done in seconds or minutes but takes large parts of days). https://www.ecmweb.com/content/benefits-battery-capacity-testing

There will absolutely be somebody that chimes in eventually "me too".

I've had MANY MANY MANY batteries fail in this way: countless. Back in the day with NiMH chemistry they used the term "memory effect" to describe the case of a battery that would not lose current nor voltage capability but would lose mAH capacity. http://blog.chiltondiymanuals.com/short-history-electric-car-batteries

I've only had ONE of many CAR batteries do this. It had at least 3/4 of it's new amp capability but lost maybe 95-98% of it's AH capability. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it

Put on a charger and it just saw the battery as fully charged, pull 500A out for 5 seconds and it maintained voltage. Pull 1/2A for 20 minutes and voltage dropped to 9.6V. The reading from a battery charger or multimeter has nothing to do with capacity. The only reason to read the battery voltage is to verify the battery is fully charged before doing a load test. Applying any amp load to a battery for any length of time changes the capacity. There can be some recovery but that is not considered in a load/capacity test. This is from your post #24---That all said: normally bc is correct, a load test *should* by all means give you a definitive answer about the battery condition, but only a long term load test (eg pull 10A for half a day) will test the battery fully. Nobody ever performs that test but it really should be done occasionally. An 80AH battery should be able to run a 1A load for 80 hours, and a 10A load for maybe 6A for 10-11 hours (internal resistance costs you some storage the higher the draw). This is how this started for me. These instructions are incomplete and incorrect. The amount of draw and time are specific to the battery being tested. And the test is to determine the time it takes to get to a specific amp level. No test numbers can be universally applied. And says nothing about the battery must be fully charged, removing any surface charge etc.


Jump start and it's fully charged in 20 minutes ready to sit a week and start the car without a problem.

So, yes a very odd case probably 1 in 1000. But if somebody else can realize it's the battery not the alternator or starter and learn from my real world example my job here is done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery About 100 million batteries are sold annually. Using 1 in 1000 that would mean that 100,000 batteries each year using the universal standard for testing tested good that were actually bad? And with even one tenth of that amount of errors accumulating over decades the standard for testing would not change according? How is that possible? Do you disagree with the documentation I have provided?

[talljames]

Ok guys, three pages of back and forth...really? Thanks for the great reading and sharing but if you want to continue may I suggect you start up another thread. I dont want this one to be closed by the moderator. I am happy that you have both said your piece and therefore now let the judgements lie.

I will post again when I get some more info. cheers!

[StephenVA]

Ok enough.
I will try NOT to continue this unique discussion on battery testing approaches and thoughts.
Having spent years in the battery tester world, a battery load test with one that can actually carbon pile a 1/2 cold (ZERO) amp output load, followed by a charging system test (Volts, Amp load, ripple, dio test) will pin point 99% of all surface charged, cell wall collapsed, soon to be dead, and wasted batteries, along with poor performing alternators with all sorts of ailments. Having sold thousands of units and tested 100,000 + batteries across the entire US market with that approach, I can say that "if it is questionable THROW IT AWAY". Batteries are cheap compared to a tow.

Surface only charged batteries cause more issues and shop returns. TEST TEST and more TESTs should pin point the failure.

You both are OK, lots more important issues in the DIY world to focus on as most of this back and forth is in the ASE/SAE Engineering scope level of conversation. WAY WAY beyond this forum.

Photo: Example of an analog version with 500 amp load capacity. Era 2000 designed in 1950! Number 1 shop level tester sold for 40 years. Replaced by the digital one 1997, still out sold the digital one for another 8 years.... Work horse. This one is my own. Solved lots of "my car will not start again" pain... WHAT? Doesn't everyone have a $1,000 VOLT Amp Tester sitting around?

Next topic!

[talljames]

So I picked up a battery tester and it arrived from the states. These small portable units are selling like hot cakes. Anyway, lifted out the spare wheel and hooked it up.

I had previously done a bit of driving around so I figure the battery is probably not fully charged but should pass the load test. Here is the result for a 780 CCA.

I think the result speaks for itself.



I then took the engine up to 1500 revs as instructed and the result showed the charging system is still ok.



So, another battery required. Will let you know which one I get.

Oh, by the way the rear wheel is now snug as a bug with its new fixing plate.



Cheers, and thanks guys!

[StephenVA]

So I understand completely, The first test shows battery voltage with engine off, Correct?

[bcredliner]

Battery must be fully charged to do a load test.

[talljames]

Yes, first test engine off. Will get back to you after I try to charge it fully. I suppose I better disconnect in case of any earth leaks.

[X5only]

Originally Posted by semcoinc

I've gotten Walmart EverStart H8 AGM units for $149.

A great deal plus tax and $15 core fee

https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart...up-h8/40647529

Mike

Thanks for your post. My current battery has disappointed me lately - twice it has let me down in parking garages but fortunately I have a portable charger. Got the battery from BMW in Aug-2015 for $200, part 61-21-2-353-810, 720 CCA, 90AMP.

[cn90]

I don't know about V8, but for M54 engines, the best bang for the buck is Exide L3 or L5.

I have used both Exide L3 and L5, they are great for the money.
They last about 5-7 yrs.

Home Depot hardware sells them, Exide L3 about $99, L5 about $119.

PS: I do NOT use Autozone Duralast battery any longer, their quality went down in the last 5 yrs, they barely last 1-2 yrs.