Can't Sync Keys

[Qsilver7]

Originally Posted by eskirvin

Anyone have a picture of the red light? I've never seen one on any of my three X5s. Perhaps these Middle Eastern models don't have the alarm?

The DWA system's clown nose (red LED) below the interior rear view mirror:

[oldskewel]

Originally Posted by eskirvin

I'm actually PACE certified in through-hole soldering and board repair, so it might be I'm more of a brain surgeon than the fellow you suggest. I don't mind you assuming though.

Now, Wyn saying I don't have experience with this particular situation is correct, which is what I came to these boards for. If we assume it isn't a "key" issue, what else could it be? Reading Scott's site, he says when programming the keys that only the doors matter for the purpose or programming. Leaning towards the FZV or maybe even just a fuse issue. Is there anything INPA and such could tell me about the issue?

Thanks again guys for the help. I don't want this issue to persist and have the physical lock break from over use.

OK, you're probably overqualified for this job.

I did the battery replacement on two of my fobs, very successfully. Link with all the things I learned while doing that is listed several posts up. I don't do any of this stuff for a living. Self taught in all these repairs I do.

Have no charging problems at all with my fobs. And my key solution was to buy 3x used genuine BMW diamond keys on eBay for $45 total, cut off the key blades, and pair them with valet keys bought from an online BMW dealer for about $40 each - with 3 kids I figured one or more would get lost, but they're all still here.

If you believe all the doubters on here, you may think I'm making this up, but it is 100% possible. Easy in fact if you have a particular set of skills. So if you do have those skills, I'll say to ignore the naysayers. I had no problems at all opening up the keys. If anything, the most advanced secret technology that may be causing others to fail, vs. being easy for me, was that I knew I should use a utility knife with a brand new blade and a steady hand. No problems at all.

Not sure what PACE is, but it sounds good. Back in the day I was once actually a PACE instructor on a US Navy aircraft carrier. We spent some time right in your neighborhood, in fact. I was a Computer Science Professor - in the Navy, PACE means Program for Afloat College Education, where the crew can earn college credits by taking classes in their spare time on the ship. Great program, but I'm guessing your PACE is something else.

Regarding the sunroof counting as a door or not, I'll suggest that even if it does not "count," the fact that you've got a *problem* with the locking control system may be causing things not to work. I was thinking about going out to my x5 as a test for you, to see if I can reprogram keys, having no problems, but leaving the sunroof open. But then I realized that if it worked, it would be a confirmation of the sunroof not counting as a door (for me, at least), but would not confirm that is your problem.

I assume INPA would be very helpful for you. As I mentioned, I used Foxwell and PASoft BMW Scanner 1.4.0. I've got some fairly detailed info somewhere on this site about that repair. One interesting thing I just remembered is that the two different scanners gave very different sets of information / faults / tests. But the definitive thing was when Foxwell told me the driver's door was open when it was actually closed. With that clear info, I electrically swapped in (just plugged in the connector with the inner door panel off, not actually doing the DLA replacement yet) my original, electrically good / mechanically cracking DLA and had instant success with everything.

I would not do any worrying about the keyless entry until you have the central locking / alarm / sunroof open issues taken care of. If your only problem was the keys not programming, I'd say to look into the keys, but these other symptoms indicate a deeper problem that will prevent the keys from working even if the keys are good.

If you want to guess at an answer and drill (figuratively, not literally ) into it, you could try to find the limit switch (or upstream wiring) that indicates the sunroof is open or closed. Somehow rig that (make it a closed or open circuit as needed) to make it look like the sunroof is always closed. That alone might make everything work (i.e., you would then be able to program the keys).

[eskirvin]

Originally Posted by Qsilver7

The DWA system's clown nose (red LED) below the interior rear view mirror:

I have nothing like that in my car. I get why it is called a clown nose now. A decode of my VIN shows nothing about a security system.

[eskirvin]

I should be able to take a look at this again this weekend. The sunroof showing as open or potentially the FZV seem the most likely candidates, but I'll spend a little time retracing my steps as well. Thanks again for the knowledgeable advice from all of those who've given it.

[eskirvin]

Originally Posted by oldskewel

pair them with valet keys bought from an online BMW dealer for about $40 each

How'd you utilize the valet keys? I'm assuming the inductive coil for the coded start is somewhere in the valet key.

[andrewwynn]

Originally Posted by eskirvin

How'd you utilize the valet keys? I'm assuming the inductive coil for the coded start is somewhere in the valet key.

That is circuit

[Qsilver7]

Originally Posted by eskirvin

... I'm assuming the inductive coil for the coded start is somewhere in the valet key.

Yes...all of the keys (remote and non-remote...aka "valet") has an EWS transponder inside that communicates the same ISN (individual serial number) with the EWS control module and DME.

The valet key's transponder is tucked into the head of the key...you can get an idea of the location in the 1st illustration below (look for the grayed-out area in each key head). If you look at your valet key...you can see that there's an access panel in the head of the key.

The EWS transponder chip (inside the old style remote & non-remote keys) uses induction technology, too...see 2nd illustration below that gives an explanation of the inductive functionality of the autonomous transponder chip found inside the aforementioned type of BMW keys. The new style remote key's transponder is soldered to the internal IC board...but the old style remote and all non remote keys have an "autonomous" EWS transponder chip.

[oldskewel]

Originally Posted by eskirvin

How'd you utilize the valet keys? I'm assuming the inductive coil for the coded start is somewhere in the valet key.

Yes, the valet key has the EWS chip to handle the "coded start."

I can't yet see the figures in Qsilver7's post, but ...

The photo in post #1 of my thread referred to earlier shows the setup:
https://xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/...r-options.html

And I also have one intact original diamond key that came with the car. With the 3 pairs of valet+fob, I have 4x fully functional things to do the keyless entry and start the car. It is said there is a limit of 10x EWS chips per car. I don't know if there is a limit to the number of remotes that can be programmed.

I have not cut a valet key open, but it appears to me to be solid state. No panels or batteries or anything that I can see. It looks like that gray plastic head is cast over the head, enclosing the circuit. From a basic understanding of how things like that work (that may be wrong, and if I could see Qsilver7's figures, I may know more), underneath that gray plastic is some sort of coil (performing the function of a coil and antenna, even if it does not look like one) that can receive the 315 MHz magnetic field, converting it into an electric potential to drive the circuit with an EWS chip. The EWS chip wakes up, reads the coded signal on that 315 MHz carrier signal, and responds with its own processed output code, sending it back on (possibly) the same coil (now used as an antenna).

So basically it's a circuit underneath the gray plastic.

• There is no battery.
• It contains the EWS chip coded to the car's security system, that you can "only get" from BMW.
• One step up from the valet key is a "master key" (not the diamond key; this has no remote functionality) which does everything the valet key does, also unlocks the glove box, and has a light built in. That needs a battery to power the light. I don't have one, just read about it.
• Neither the valet nor master key does anything regarding keyless entry. Just the mechanical lock and the EWS chip + communications.

The cut-off diamond key fob shown in my pic does all the keyless entry stuff, and can be (must be) programmed to work on a new car or when things need to be reinitialized. They are optional. You can use the valet key to mechanically unlock the driver's door, turn the ignition, and communicate with the EWS to start the car. Those fobs also have their own EWS chips, power source, antenna, etc.

So when I'm using a valet key + fob, and scanning for codes with my Foxwell (or previously PASoft BMW Scanner 1.4.0), I would get a low priority EWS warning since it finds TWO EWS chips - a valid one in the valet key, and an invalid one from the fob which matches whatever car it came from. But it does not cause any problems.

If you were to buy a new diamond key from a dealer, based on you providing your VIN, they'd sell you a key containing a BMW-programmed EWS chip (one of 10 for your car). It would rely on you still having the original car-side part of that system to communicate with. The keyless entry functionality would need to be programmed by going through the standard procedure in your car.

I expect one day my computer will show me Qsilver7's figures and I may need to update this. But as far as functionality goes, there are no problems.

[wpoll]

FWIW, I think the EWS induction RF field and comms signal is a lot lower than 315/433MHz (which is used for the remote fob radio) - more like 125kHz or something.

[oldskewel]

Originally Posted by wpoll

FWIW, I think the EWS induction RF field and comms signal is a lot lower than 315/433MHz (which is used for the remote fob radio) - more like 125kHz or something.

Good to know. I assumed it would just use the same carrier as the remote fob, since it's already there, and the EWS just needs a little coded signal. That's maybe one of the details in Qsilver7's figures, which are always very informative when I can see them. And I can believe that whatever BMW did, it was well done, and for a good reason here.

Another general comment on the keys - it is amazing how much confusing, changing, and sometimes wrong info is out there. If I did not have these valet keys in hand and working, I might not know or believe they exist.

When I bought them from an online BMW dealer - thebmwminipartstore.com - (order placed over the phone after emailing scans of the registration and my driver's license) there was some confusion / misunderstanding when I ordered them. I did not want valet keys, I wanted what I now understand to be the "master" key (although the valet keys are fine - I just can't lock/unlock the glove box with them, and there is no light, which is a plus for me), and thought that's what I'd get. And the valet key is actually better for my needs due to having no battery, completely solid, impervious to water, etc.

But this is what I got. I was going to post the part number + the superseded one, but doing a quick google on them, I have doubts that they are right. So basically, watch out, be prepared for confusion, photographs should be helpful.

EDIT - I just checked, and these are the two keys on that site I bought my valet keys from. Obviously the $170 one is the "diamond key." No confusion about that one, but ... The other one is called a valet key there. Shown in the figure but not offered for sale looks like what my understanding would call a "master key." I think pricing was around $140 and $40 when I bought mine in late 2014.

It says there, "Plastic Valet Key." What I got clearly has a plastic head and a metal blade. I have heard legends of true plastic keys with plastic blades that are supposedly delicate and not intended for repeated use. The plastic-head/metal-blade valet keys I got are probably the toughest keys available.

https://www.thebmwminipartstore.com/...86-66126955748

https://www.thebmwminipartstore.com/...ey-51217127047