Ethanol mixture

[sageriders]

With the gas price hike here in US, and the apparent shortage of refining capacity, manufacturers are adding ethanol to more and more of the fuel they sell. Here in the Northeast, some, not all gas has ethanol added, at 7-10% rate. In the mid-west, all gas has ethanol added, and in some locales, as high as 15%. My question regarding the use of this mixed fuel to my local dealer netted uncertainty. Does anyone have any definitive info and/or data on the use of ethanol blends in our cars? Has BMWNA released any info?

[Wagner]

Do a search on the forum, this has come up before. Also when you check ethanol mixtures make sure you aren't confusing E85 type fuels, where ethanol is added at a large quantity, versus the MTBE replacement ethanol additive use which was done on the east coast in the beginning of May.

[sageriders]

Thanks. I'm aware of E85, and assume, when it arrives, that we will not be able to use it in our existing engines. I believe the high concentration in E85 corrodes injectors and other metallic elements. But somewhere I read or heard that ethanol, in what mixture I'm not sure, eats away at rubber seals, and that's the reason for my question.

[geokoppmann]

I'm just about to install an Full Flex Gold FFV, (Flex Fuel Vehicle), Conversion kit in my '01 BMW X5 3.0i with 81,xxx miles on the odometer to in order to permit it to burn 105 octane E-85 (Ethanol) while running at altitudes between 5,000' msl and 11,000 msl (mean sea level) here in Northern New Mexico.

My decision is prompted by the 4,000 mile, 5 month long succss I've had after installing the same kit in my '98 Ford F-150 4.2L V-6 5spd Auto with 98,xxx miles on the odometer. The results were an immediate 12HP increase and a 5.5 ft-lb Torque increase all recorded on two Dyno runs. The vehicle has considerably better throttle response at all RPMs.

All the old wives tales and negative propaganda about erroded injectors and other fuel system components caused by a high concentration of Ethanol have proved completely untrue. I've had NO PROBLEMS, (Zero, Zilch, Na Da), since the I started running on nothing but E-85 early last Sept., ('06). Even the fuel filter did not become clogged after the initial 500 mile usage.

Immediately after my Dyno runs I had the emissions tested at the City of Albuquerque's Main Testing Facility and again, the results were spectacular. Hydrocarbons registered at 10% of allowable. CO is at or near Zero % and CO2 is 15.2% where 16.0% CO2 is considered Optimum and 14.5% is Ideal.

The fuel usage I've recorded varies considerably as you would expect depending on my speed. On 95 mile trips at 78 mph on the interstate, my OEM use on 86 octane has averaged 15.5-16.7mpg depending on head winds and position of the tail gate.

Running on a full tank of E-85 over the same road, (to visit my daughter and our grandkids), I've averaged between 13.5-15.5mpg. When I reduce my speed to a max of 65-70mph the E-85 fuel burn averages 14.8-15.5mpg. On one 440 mile trip, (220 miles each way), iI locked the cruise control at 60mph running at altitudes up and down, and up again, between 4,500' and 7,800'msl and my E-85 fuel usage for the trip averaged 16.5 mpg. NOT to BAD for an OLD Pickup.

We haven't owned the X5 long enough to get good solid fuel usage records however, the former owner said he routinely got 24.5mpg in mixed city & 75 mph highway driving.

If anyone is interested in a copy of the Dyno runs or the Emissions tests I'll be glad to post them, (if I can figure out how), or I'll send them via email.

I'll keep you posted on the results of our X5's FFV Conversion.

Ethanol is HERE, NOW ! Its not a pie in the sky fuel that suffers 200 mile max range and handling/storage problems. It IS the IDEAL CLEAN BURNING fuel that can be burned in 'most' 1990 and later model gas vehicles IF they are in 'reasonable' operating condition. It will bridge the gap between our dependence on foreign oil and the more esoteric fuels which, most likely, will be produced domestically in the next 10-20 years.

[NINCHS]

how hard is that install? the website says its plug and play. how long did it take you?

[geokoppmann]

It is turly 'plug & play' IF you can touch the top of your injectors. On the X5 they are right on top of the engine.

HOWEVER, on my '98 F-150, they're burried beneath the air intake plenum (12 bolts -3" long), and just about evey sensor connection known to man for engine operation. All together about 2 hrs twisting wrenches and a gasket (if you're not careful removing the plenum.).

Most of the Subaru's and older Ford Taurus' are a piece of cake. I haven't had any experience with any others.

Shortly tho, I will be installing a 4 cyl Full Flex Gold [www.fullflexint.com] unit on my '01 BMW K1200LTC touring motorcycle.

(WHY a motorcycle -? you ask ?) Well, its just to prove that it can be done and that it will work on yet another 'older' engine.

[Wagner]

Be prepared to replace all your fuel lines as running E85 will eat up your hoses. Roundel magazine had a write up on this and specifically stated "no BMW made is built for E85 fuels".

[geokoppmann]

IF that were the case then all of the vehicles mfgr'd since 1990 would have already fallen apart since 10%-15% ethanol has been the winter oxygenated blend in gasoline sold in many, if not most, urban areas with air polution problems.

(The 'oxygenated' fuel blends have raised hell with the fuel systems on my early to mid 80's motorcycles but not on either of my two '01 BMW K1200LTC's.)

Why would any vehicle mfgr. who has sold in a USA market, (since 1988 when EPA mandated an ethanol mix), install any fuel system component that is designed to withstand 'just a little bit' of Ethanol and not 100% ethanol ? From what I've read, they usually design with 200-400% safety factors so why would they not do so where the 'probability' of their product using a corrosive fuel exists ?

All of this is not to say that there have not been fuel system problems with the blending of Ethanol in to gasoline in th U.S.

When you cut thru the 'anti ethanol' hype and study the reports of 'the problems' they almost always involve boats; offroad vehicles; lawmowers; hand held gas powered trimmers; etc. that were never designed to store or burn any fuel other than straight 86 octane gasoline or fuel/oil mix of it.

The aforementioned 'engines with ethanol caused problems weren't included in the 1988 EPA 'proclamation' so their fuel systems ARE as the were originally designed back in the 60's; 70's or early 80's and most people who use them don't pay any attention to, or understand, the E-10 (Ethanol) stickers on the pumps from which they but their fuel.)

The automotive vehicles that have experienced supposed 'ethanol related' problems have been those which have had little or no maintenance or which have been abused and are prime candatates for the scrap yard crusher.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of FFV (Flex Fuel Vehicle) conversions on the roads all over the USA and the biggest problem they've faced is having any crud that's accumulated in their gas tanks or fuel lines cleaned out by the ethanol within the first 500 miles or so with the resultant plugged up fuel filters. Once a clean fuel filter is installed, they're off and running.

If automotive fuel line and fuel hose failures were really a big problem, the millions of FFV conversions that been installed in Brazilian cars over the past 20+ years would never have gotten off the ground.

In any event, bring 50% German and having been raised by a man who learned his trade as a
Machinest in 1920's Munich, I feel VERY confident that my trust in the German mindset of NEVER designing or making ANYTHING that is not able to withstand whatever a human being can throw at it is not unfounded. I lived that mentality growing up at home and I understand throughly.

[JCL]

Geokoppmann:

Your enthusiasm is evident, and your interest in the environment is commendable. However, I wonder why you are seeing a drop of only 2 mpg when any chemical engineer will tell you that volumetrically, ethanol has about 26% less energy content. E85 should, therefore, have approximately 22% worse fuel consumption. While the AKI, or octane, is higher, your engine can not take advantage of that without remapping. So, something doesn't add up.

[Wagner]

Originally Posted by geokoppmann

IF that were the case then

That is the case...read Roundel. The fuel lines in a BMW weren't meant to received large doses of alcohol base fuels like E85.


Good point JCL, seems people overlook the fact that E85 produces less energy the regular gasoline.


cough cough HYDROGEN cough cough