Thanks for nothing BMW NA ( Blue smoke/Oil loss/Oil separator )

[JCL]

Originally Posted by mgruber

Not sure I agree with your comment on the warranty period. His car is already at 70,000 miles and BMW stated they would replace the engine for him given that he falls in the window of cars the this is likely to happen to, per the SIB. I would be shocked as hell if BMW installed a new engine, and let's just say it fails 2,000 miles later, they tell him to take a hike. Personally, I'd call an attorney.

That isn't what I said. If it failed today, and they replaced it, he would have 30,000 miles of warranty left. His warranty is on the vehicle, not the replacement part.

[nrgetic99]

Originally Posted by JCL

That isn't what I said. If it failed today, and they replaced it, he would have 30,000 miles of warranty left. His warranty is on the vehicle, not the replacement part.

UPDATE :

As of today, BMW NA are working with my stealer and may have their roving tech specialist look at the vehicle at my stealers location.

What swung it was the fact that I cannot get it to exhibit the symptoms at my stealer due to the ambient conditions. The dude at BMW NA tried to tell me that whatever happened, the car would store a code that could be interogated later.

I said "Really, does BMW have a code for a frozen breather hose ? " to which the reply was that they probably do not.

I then added that there is no code that I know of for oil ON TOP OF THE PISTON and the first code to be thrown would be a misfire code about 2/10's of a second before the TERMINAL ENGINE FAILURE code.

We will see... I am not holding my breath.

I will however add the heated jacket for the hoses whatever happens..now I have the price down to $363 in parts.

David

[Chris F.]

David, would you mind posting that TSB? I've been debating getting this done on my '01 4.4i simply for the peace of mind (like you). I certainly can't afford 10k+ on a new engine.

I've heard the kit is a pain to install. I'd guess $600-$700 of labor? Isn't there also a insulated oil seperator available as well as the heated lines?

I'm curious how effective these heated lines really are as they would drain the battery when the vehicle is off. How long is the heat retained overnight when its 2 degrees out?

[nrgetic99]

Originally Posted by Chris F.

David, would you mind posting that TSB? I've been debating getting this done on my '01 4.4i simply for the peace of mind (like you). I certainly can't afford 10k+ on a new engine.

I've heard the kit is a pain to install. I'd guess $600-$700 of labor? Isn't there also a insulated oil seperator available as well as the heated lines?

I'm curious how effective these heated lines really are as they would drain the battery when the vehicle is off. How long is the heat retained overnight when its 2 degrees out?

I am having trouble copying and pasting the bulletin. To the best of my knowledge, the heated jacket is only hot when the ignition is on. In fact, one step of the install is to check for +12V with the ignition on. I also am assuming it is thermostatically controlled in some fashion as otherwise, it would seriously reduce the life of the heating elements to have it on whenever the ignition was on.

As for install, I have the entire bulletin and I do not see it as a complicated job at all.

1. Remove engine acoustic cover
2. Open Right side junction box
3. Drill hole in juction box cover to allow heating wrap hardness to exit
4. Splice 2 wires and cover with heat shrink sleeving
5. Check for 12V under ignition on heating wrap loom you just spliced
6. Replace junction box cover and wrap vent hoses with heating wrap
7. Add zipper ties for loom and wrap
8. Replace acoustic cover
9. Pop a cold one and admire you work while simulataneously posting pictures of it on X5world.

David

[nrgetic99]

Ok,

This is what I have ...

SI B11 01 04
Engine

March 2004
Service Engineering

SUBJECT
Heated Wrap for Crankcase Vent System

MODEL
E53 X5 with M62 engine from start of production through 9/2003.

SITUATION
During periods of driving in extreme cold weather conditions, certain X5 vehicles may experience misfiring, blue smoke from the exhaust, high oil consumption/oil loss or engine damage.

CAUSE
Condensation in the crankcase vent system could freeze, causing higher than normal crankcase pressures. In extreme cases, this could cause engine oil to be introduced into the intake manifold and then into the combustion chambers. Should sufficient oil quantities enter the cylinders, engine damage could result.

CORRECTION
Install a heated wrap kit around the crankcase vent hoses.SI B11 01 04
Engine

March 2004
Service Engineering

SUBJECT
Heated Wrap for Crankcase Vent System

MODEL
E53 X5 with M62 engine from start of production through 9/2003.

SITUATION
During periods of driving in extreme cold weather conditions, certain X5 vehicles may experience misfiring, blue smoke from the exhaust, high oil consumption/oil loss or engine damage.

CAUSE
Condensation in the crankcase vent system could freeze, causing higher than normal crankcase pressures. In extreme cases, this could cause engine oil to be introduced into the intake manifold and then into the combustion chambers. Should sufficient oil quantities enter the cylinders, engine damage could result.

CORRECTION
Install a heated wrap kit around the crankcase vent hoses.

PROCEDURE
Loosen the locks on the acoustic engine cover by turning them counterclockwise 90 degrees . Remove the cover.


Open the right side (cylinders 1-4) wiring distribution box (1).

Mark and center punch the position in the distribution box (1) as shown in the illustration.
Dimension A = 30 mm
Dimension B = 25 mm


With a piece of wood (1) positioned under the distribution box (3), drill a 9.5 mm hole (2) in the area previously marked. Afterward, remove any burrs from the hole.

Feed the connector cable (1) through the hole in the distribution box (2) until it locks in position.

Remove the tape and expose the cable harness (1). Note the red/blue (2) and brown (3) connector branches. The red/blue is terminal 87 while the brown is ground.

Identify and separate one wire from each branch away from the others. Cut them approximately 30 mm away from the crimp connection (located under the plastic cap). Strip these wire ends (1) 4 mm . Slide the supplied shrink wrap over each wire in the kit cable harness (3). Crimp the kit cable harness to the distribution box wiring (2) ensuring that the wire colors match. Slide the shrink wrap over the crimp and heat until the wrap has shrunk tightly over the connection.

Rewrap the connector branches and the new connection points with electrical tape (1) and place them back in the wire distribution box. Close the wire distribution box (2).
Using a multimeter, ensure that there is battery voltage and ground at the connector by switching on the ignition.

Pull the heated wrap (1) in the manner indicated under the vent hoses (2) until the black thread marking (3) can be seen. Fold the wrap tightly around the hoses and close with the Velcro strip.

Secure the heating wrap and wiring with cable ties as shown (1&2). Connect the wiring from the wrap to the connector from the wire distribution box (3).
Reassemble the vehicle.

PARTS INFORMATION

WARRANTY INFORMATION
Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

Main Work:
Use this labor operation number when the only repair performed is the listed warranty repair.

OR
+Associated Work:
Use this labor operation number when other repairs or services are performed along with the listed warranty repair.
Under no circumstances should both labor operation numbers be claimed.
Attempts to claim both times will result in an unnecessary delay in claim processing and payment.

[nrgetic99]

Originally Posted by JCL

I don't think that is an oversimplification. Yes, these vehicles can have this problem. Yours didn't. You have assumed that a stumble on idle one time was caused by a frozen separator when in fact it may not have been.

You speak about the production window as if it applies to 2003 vehicles. It is a ten year problem, BMWs have had this issue for that long. Yours is no more likely to have the problem than any other year, or than many other makes of vehicles that use similar crankcase vents.

I wouldn't put the heated lines on, simply because it can fail with them; they aren't a sure fix. They simply decrease the odds of it happening if your vehicle is predisposed to freezing up. That predisposition starts with many short trips and condensation in the separator, it doesn't start with leaving it parked in the cold. If you do a lot of very short trips, then yes, consider the heated lines as insurance. Apart from the lines, however, the best thing you can do is move to an extreme service interval for oil changes, every 7500 or even every 5000 if you want to triple the manufacturer recommendation. Check for signs of water in the oil around the oil filler cap (a white paste). It may be worth having the separator/crankcase vent cleaned out or changed, without going to the heated hoses (they aren't putting any heat down when you start it and it is very cold, and so wouldn't have impacted your stumble if in fact it was caused by a frozen separator).

You imply that it is a sure bet that your engine will eventually fail. Statistics don't support that conclusion. Hundreds may fail eventually. Many thousands have been built. The ones that failed had a heavy buildup of moisture in the lines over time. It is a simple actuarial calculation, nothing more. You can bet that BMW is far ahead by waiting until some fail. Your best bet to ensure you don't get stranded is simply to maintain the vehicle properly, and more frequently given the extreme conditions.

Whether it has this problem or not, I think I deserve more than lip service from the vehicle manufacturer. If they convince me via a process that is not "our policy is..." then I will happily do nothing.

The vehicle also has pre-paid maintenance. However, nothing in that schedule will address this concern.

FWIW, I have 20 years in the oil industry and have been a lubricant formulator for 15 of those.. I actually worked on the original 'black sludge' issues that afflicted Euro cars in Europe in the 80's and 90's.

With all due respect, changing a premium synthetic oil more often is not going to have a major impact on the mechanism for this particular potential mode of failure. However, I am happy to hear a reasonable technical argument that relates to the lubricant that may support this theory. Checking the separator and hoses often is a better option.

In essence, one of the bye products of combustion is water and how it is dealt with is the major issue...if the engine is allowed to warm throughly, the water is driven off or evaporates and will not collect or freeze at local cold spots. Short trips in cold climes do not drive off/evaporate the water. Whereas some oils (Group I base stocks) can be proven to be worse in the now, defunct Sequence IID test, invariably , premium fluids with genuine synthetic base stocks (not Group III) experienced zero problems and never exhibited any emulsion sludge in the breather hose.

Lubricants with poorer (read cheaper) base oils can be made to perform better in respect of emulsion sludge with very targeted and specific additives. However, the degradation with time will still make poorer oils worse in the long run than than genuine synthetic premium.

To be really technical, the polarity of the Group I base oils means they can solubilize more of the water generated during combustion wheras a true synthetic base oil (not Group III) is extremely non polar and will not solubilize the water so it tends not to get carried to areas of the engine such as the oil separator where it will do harm.

As you rightly state, driving habits are the biggest casual factor combined with a design oversight, weakness or fault depending on your perspective.

Outside that, the comment that regular maintenance is my best option is a little vague... if you have some very specific not lubricant related suggestions, I am happy to hear them.

On a personal note, it would be interesting to hear what oils folks were using on those vehicles that have experienced catastrophic failures .. I will do my research on what my stealer is using in my vehicle and if I am concerned, I may change the oil out now for something I know to be better.

One final note, the algorithm that BMW use in determining oil change interval uses, along with other factors, includes the number of key on, key off cycles so a consumer that does a lot of short trips where the vehicle gets started and stopped a lot and sits idle SHOULD have the oil change interval light illuminate sooner.

David

[primetime]

nrgetic..Very well put..Alot of valuable info you gave us about the group number's for the different types of oil..I've heard that 0w - 30 is better for the winter's and then going back to normal 5w- 30 for the other seasons. Is this true? Or does it even matter?

[nrgetic99]

All :

Just to be clear here...I really appreicate the input and I am genuine in saying I welcome everyones suggestions...as you can probably tell, I am an engineer so by definition, I can NEVER have too much data

Many thanks..lets keep talking about this,

David

[JCL]

Originally Posted by nrgetic99

With all due respect, changing a premium synthetic oil more often is not going to have a major impact on the mechanism for this particular potential mode of failure. However, I am happy to hear a reasonable technical argument that relates to the lubricant that may support this theory. Checking the separator and hoses often is a better option.

I agree with the above. We don't know that the engines that failed all had premium synthetic oil. I would use a good synthetic, and if I was getting signs of emulsion sludge I would change the oil more frequently to flush it. Without getting into the lubricity questions (my tribology courses were 27 years ago) I would just focus on the visible signs of condensation. I go back to my point that this starts with short trips that don't boil off the condensation. The engine simply needs to get good and hot every now and then. We get posts such as "I only drove to the store" and "I left it idling for 30 minutes with no load in the cold and it got a hydraulic lock" and I think that those driving habits are the biggest contributor.

In essence, one of the bye products of combustion is water and how it is dealt with is the major issue...if the engine is allowed to warm throughly, the water is driven off or evaporates and will not collect or freeze at local cold spots. Short trips in cold climes do not drive off/evaporate the water.

Bingo. We have raging agreement!

As you rightly state, driving habits are the biggest casual factor combined with a design oversight, weakness or fault depending on your perspective.

I think that is fair, there are multiple perspectives. I do think that it would be better for BMW, and BMW owners, if the original design didn't allow this to ever happen. Having said that, proper maintenance (including the use of quality synthetic oils), not idling for extended periods in cold weather, getting the engine properly warmed up, all greatly reduce the odds. If a vehicle is 4 or 5 years old, cleaning out the crankcase vent lines seems like a very reasonable preventative maintenance step. I think BMW should put that in their Inspection II, rather than moving to heated vent lines. Most owners never have this problem. Some do, and it is unfortunate, but let's keep it in perspective. It is much more likely to not happen than to happen.

We could debate the performance of Group III oils, but I suspect we wouldn't get anywhere, too much of it is anecdotal. Besides, you would leave me in the dust. Your 20 years is in oil formulation; my 25 years since mechanical engineering school focuses on engines and service issues more than specific lubrication questions. I don't think this is a lubrication problem.

One final note, the algorithm that BMW use in determining oil change interval uses, along with other factors, includes the number of key on, key off cycles so a consumer that does a lot of short trips where the vehicle gets started and stopped a lot and sits idle SHOULD have the oil change interval light illuminate sooner.

I haven't seen that effect. I believe that the algorithm simply counts the litres of fuel consumed, and doesn't consider short trips vs highway. The different km/miles to an oil change is because of the relative fuel efficiency in those two extremes of highway vs city, not because the engine knows how it is being driven. You can see the measure of litres to the next oil change on the hidden menus in the OBC. There is no count of starts/stops to my knowledge.

Good discussion, as engineers are wont to have. One last question: Do you have any indication that the original stumbling was caused by this problem?

Jeff

[nrgetic99]

Originally Posted by JCL

Good discussion, as engineers are wont to have. One last question: Do you have any indication that the original stumbling was caused by this problem?

Jeff

Anecdotal.

A little more and denser white smoke and hesitation. Could have been an overly rich mixture due to the extreme cold but typically you can smell the excess gas and the tailpipe emissions are very white...what I saw seemed more whitish grey.

David