Dealership estimates

[ShoeDog]

Hi all -

So I took my '02 X5 in to the dealer for it's 3rd window regulator fix. I have now had the front two and the back left (this one) fixed. The first two were still covered on CPO, this one was not.

I dropped the car at 7:30 and said I would wait. The mechanics don't start until 8 am, but apparently were in so they supposedly started around 7:45 am. I was told it would be about 2 hours (9:45 am).

At 8:55 am the car was done, washed, vacuumed and I was ready to go. I was quoted and estimated of $450. It turned out to be $415.

As I had to get to work, I didn't look over the bill thoroughly until I got to work around 15 mins later. The billing had 2 hour of labor. Hmm, considering I wasnt' even in the dealer for 2 hours TOTAL from drop-off to pick up, I thought this odd.

I called the service advisor and told him that I didn't believe I should have been billed for 2 hours of labor since it was really an hour (7:45 - 8:45, and that giving them only an additional 10 mins to wash/vacuum). He said that they go by the "book" on what the estimated time is and if it's less, well too bad.

I know the BMW service books state the expected repair times. I'd be willing to bet that most every mechanic beats those times.

So I told him that was wrong and they should credit me an hours labor. He even said they had to wait 20-25 mins for a part to arrive (so now actual labor time really was no more than 25-30 mins tops).

He wouldn't change it and I told him I would take it higher up - first the Service Mgr and then to BMW North America.

So am I wasting my time to try that? Has anyone ever been able to get credit because they took less time?

I'm sure the mechanic was on to another job immediately, so he got paid an hour for my job (doing nothing) and was already making money on the next job in the cue.

I told them I was going to head to an independent shop because I'm out of warranty and there is no reason to keep using them.

ShoeDog

[Brit6]

Thats what the dealers do, exactly why you shoudn't go there unless you really really have to. You can actually change the regulator yourself fairly easily, heck i did it in -20C weather. The part is around $120-$140 ish i think.

[ShoeDog]

Thanks. Yeah, I won't be using them anymore unless I get another one and I'm under warranty.

Just wondered if this was worth pursuing or was it a waste of my time.

Shoedog

[jmweb]

Thats b.s. persue it.

If someone charged me on a estimated rate of what a book said, I'd be pissed. If I were you, I'd be in their shop making a scene.

I'll find you a book that say black is white if you want.

[Damager]

I'm really not trying to be a tool, but that is how MOST dealer service centers charge. They do it that way to standardize estimates across a population of mechanics and to allow them to give customers an estimate.

[Weasel]

"book" time is the industry standard in all of the automotive repair industry. I am a mechanic at a BMW dealer myself. Techs at the dealer work on the same kinda cars every day, and know them inside and out. Something as simple as a rear window regulator I can do in about 20 minutes, and the rear window regulator pays 1.9 hours by BMW service pricing. My answer to that is don't penalize me for being good/efficient in what I do! If it pays 2.4 hours to change a valve cover gasket, I get paid 2.4 hours to change it whether it takes me 45 minutes to complete or 4.5 hours to complete. And trust me, ALOT of jobs on these cars eat our freakin lunch. Parasitic draws of the battery, most bus problems, water leaks/wind noises, all of these problems take an exorbitant amount of time to properly diagnose and fix, yet we don't get paid shit for diagnosis time on these and we usually lose 1/2 a day to a day and a half of labor time to diagnosing these problems. Should I charge these customers 12 hours of labor because it took me that long to properly find/fix the problem? Or would you be damn glad the "book time" for diagnosis was only a couple of hours...

The book time for BMW service at the dealer is not an actual book, but is set directly by BMWNA and is all accessed through the computer terminal. The fact that some, not all, of the mechanics can correctly and competently complete the job faster than the book time is how better mechanics make more money. Would you rather the mechanic finished the job in 50 minutes and just let the car sit there in his stall for another hour? Just so you didn't feel ripped off? Meanwhile the mechanic would be staring at this finished job tying up his stall, stopping him from pulling in his next job... directly affecting his paycheck?

Sorry I got into a rant there, I have just been surrounded by incompetents and ignorance lately and needed to vent a bit... and for some reason this thread set me off for a sec. Sometimes I feel after working with certain people, I would be fully qualified to work the special olympics!

[jmweb]

So your saying it is ethical to charge 1.9 hours for the rear window regulator when it only took you .3 hours?

[Damager]

Yes, that is what we are saying. They charge a set amount for a repair. Some mechanics take longer, some do it quicker. Would you rather that they just say "We'll charge you what it actually takes", and then wonder and worry about whether they were assigning a newbie or a hotshot. This is completely ethical, and normal, and how MOST auto repair places work.

[Weasel]

Including independent shops also. Most of them use the Mitchell service guide, which is an actual book, riddled with greasy fingerprints. Put it this way, if a mastertech that has been working on BMW's for 20 years can't do s simple job like a window regulator, that you could train a monkey to do, quicker than book time... he should have found a new profession many years ago. Yet the newbie techs that are fresh out of school with no experiance will almost never beat the time, and their work has to be checked over by the master tech before it leaves anyways.

Are you saying its ethical to pay me less to do the job because I have a higher knowledge and experience level than others? Would you pay MORE to the less knowledgeable, less experienced, slower working techs that blunder through the job slowly?

It is the customers like you that don't know better, but think they do, that go to the independent shops with the lowest rates thinking you're doing good. Then wonder why your rear carpets get saturated when it rains... just to find out the independent shop cut open your vapor barrier (water shield glued to the inside opening of your door to keep the water outside the vehicle) to replace that regulator, not knowing it had to be carefully removed and resealed... left out half the screws, and broke half of the retaining clipd that hold the door panel on. Not so much because he didn't care as that he didn't know better, this was probably the first BMW he worked on in his career. Independent shops do NOT have the training regiment and professional learning environment of a dealership. I would rather pay for quality work in the first place than pay for cheap labor, then have to pay more for quality techs to fix what they broke.

Just look at the quote in my signature. You think professional is expensive, just wait until you pay for amateur!

Yet again, sorry for the rant... but this thread is actually just the release I need tonight, and if I can help straighten someone out on their beliefs, all the better! No hard feelings, just strong ones!

[Weasel]

And jmweb, if I might ask, what is your profession?