Another Oil Sperator Question....

[NOVAX5]

Originally Posted by primetime

...They like $$ more then they like us...Not very nice, especially since we are their customers who are buying their cars..

So you think they like us because we bought their cars in the first place? The answer is NO, NO and NO. First they make profit out of our purchase then they give you run around when you have warranty and when the warranty expires, they will empty your wallet in a blink of an eye. Where is the part that they like us because we bought $70K cars?

[primetime]

Originally Posted by NOVAX5

So you think they like us because we bought their cars in the first place? The answer is NO, NO and NO. First they make profit out of our purchase then they give you run around when you have warranty and when the warranty expires, they will empty your wallet in a blink of an eye. Where is the part that they like us because we bought $70K cars?

What part of "They like $$ more then they like us" did you not understand? They'd rather us pay to have the car fixed (even though the item is a known problem) then have themselves eat the bill...Its that simple..And trust me, I agree with you about the run around stuff..

[amacman]

Originally Posted by primetime

What part of "They like $$ more then they like us" did you not understand? They'd rather us pay to have the car fixed (even though the item is a known problem) then have themselves eat the bill...Its that simple..And trust me, I agree with you about the run around stuff..

I THINK THAT FRAUD AND DISHONOUR SEEMS TO BE THE WAY OF LIFE AT BMW AS IS THE WAY IN THE BUSINESS WORLD. DO NOT ENTERTAIN THEM ANY MORE. THERE ARE MUCH SIMPLER TECHNOLOGIES BECOMING AVAILABLE.

[lo_jack]

Actually I think that the BMW business model, which is mostly a function of the entire way the global auto industry has gone in the past 20 years, does not account for people outside warranty or not in a lease. Of course this the far end of the spectrum, but if you think about it, a less than ideal PCV system is accounted for in the warranty. They expect you to want the newer, cooler model. They expect you to pay for it willingly, even when your old vehicle is serviceable. This is just as much a function of consumer behavior as it is the manufacturer's business. At which point, the PCV system failing sporadically after 45k is doable.

If you expect your customers to buy new, keep for 3 years and trade in...then problems at or beyond 60k miles (where many of these problems happen) are outside of the model, and before 60k miles are very much out of the model, as they are under original warranty. This allows them to engineer for short term performance. I keep coming back to this over and over. If you expect your consumer to keep your car for 100k miles, you engineer to 100k miles, and you make compromises in performance to do it. If you expect less, you design for less. And it costs less to do that. If you anticipate your typical X5 driver will never turn a wrench, and hand it over to your dealership again plus cash for a new one every few years, you do not have to design for durability, and can concentrate on performance and looks.

Thinking about that though, any company in the business of building cars does better to sell you a new car every 3 years than to have you hold onto one of their products for a decade and have minimal service issues. That's logic.

[amacman]

Originally Posted by lo_jack

Actually I think that the BMW business model, which is mostly a function of the entire way the global auto industry has gone in the past 20 years, does not account for people outside warranty or not in a lease. Of course this the far end of the spectrum, but if you think about it, a less than ideal PCV system is accounted for in the warranty. They expect you to want the newer, cooler model. They expect you to pay for it willingly, even when your old vehicle is serviceable. This is just as much a function of consumer behavior as it is the manufacturer's business. At which point, the PCV system failing sporadically after 45k is doable.

If you expect your customers to buy new, keep for 3 years and trade in...then problems at or beyond 60k miles (where many of these problems happen) are outside of the model, and before 60k miles are very much out of the model, as they are under original warranty. This allows them to engineer for short term performance. I keep coming back to this over and over. If you expect your consumer to keep your car for 100k miles, you engineer to 100k miles, and you make compromises in performance to do it. If you expect less, you design for less. And it costs less to do that. If you anticipate your typical X5 driver will never turn a wrench, and hand it over to your dealership again plus cash for a new one every few years, you do not have to design for durability, and can concentrate on performance and looks.

Thinking about that though, any company in the business of building cars does better to sell you a new car every 3 years than to have you hold onto one of their products for a decade and have minimal service issues. That's logic.

DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU CHOSE TO BE HIGHLY PROFITABLE OR DO YOU WISH TO BE ALSO ETHICAL AND HONORABLE

[motordavid]

Originally Posted by lo_jack

Actually I think that the BMW business model, which is mostly a function of the entire way the global auto industry has gone in the past 20 years, does not account for people outside warranty or not in a lease. Of course this the far end of the spectrum, but if you think about it, a less than ideal PCV system is accounted for in the warranty. They expect you to want the newer, cooler model. They expect you to pay for it willingly, even when your old vehicle is serviceable. This is just as much a function of consumer behavior as it is the manufacturer's business. At which point, the PCV system failing sporadically after 45k is doable.

If you expect your customers to buy new, keep for 3 years and trade in...then problems at or beyond 60k miles (where many of these problems happen) are outside of the model, and before 60k miles are very much out of the model, as they are under original warranty. This allows them to engineer for short term performance. I keep coming back to this over and over. If you expect your consumer to keep your car for 100k miles, you engineer to 100k miles, and you make compromises in performance to do it. If you expect less, you design for less. And it costs less to do that. If you anticipate your typical X5 driver will never turn a wrench, and hand it over to your dealership again plus cash for a new one every few years, you do not have to design for durability, and can concentrate on performance and looks.

Thinking about that though, any company in the business of building cars does better to sell you a new car every 3 years than to have you hold onto one of their products for a decade and have minimal service issues. That's logic.

OT...but, .

[JCL]

OT, but interesting

Originally Posted by lo_jack

Actually I think that the BMW business model, which is mostly a function of the entire way the global auto industry has gone in the past 20 years, does not account for people outside warranty or not in a lease. ......

Thinking about that though, any company in the business of building cars does better to sell you a new car every 3 years than to have you hold onto one of their products for a decade and have minimal service issues. That's logic.

I agree. I find nothing unethical about BMW's behaviour. They are building a particular product, for a specific target market. Buyer beware. You are buying a product, but also a philosophy. They never set out to build a reliable car, or a durable car, as their top design priority. It isn't designed to break, reliability is just some distance down the list. Yes, some run for a long time, and that is great. But BMW set out to build a driver's vehicle, one that includes lots of technology. The two different design briefs are somewhat at odds with each other.

BMW likes to use technology. They aren't the only company that sets a team of engineers to work designing a fix for a problem that some don't see as a problem. The oil separator makes the exhaust cleaner, allowing BMW to get points on the various regulations about ULEV, SULEV, etc. No oil mist in the intake means cleaner exhaust. A complicated solution, to be sure, but one that is predictable given their approach to design.

People who expect BMW to provide warranty on an eight year old vehicle, or one that hasn't been operated according to the owner's manuals clear guidance, should be on their own. During the warranty period, BMW has been covering oil separator failures and just adding it to the cost of the new warranty, when some cases of failures are clearly made worse by the driver's practices (short trips, extended warmups, etc).

Think about this: how many people buy a TV or computer and expect to be using it as their primary device in eight years? Almost none. I am continually amazed at the people who change their oil every 3000 miles, because they believe it will reduce piston wear at 200,000 miles. Can you imagine what it is going to be like maintaining the electronics on an E70 in eight years? The mind boggles. Many of those vehicles will be parked, and not because the engines are worn out.

/rant off

[amacman]

Originally Posted by JCL

OT, but interesting



I agree. I find nothing unethical about BMW's behaviour. They are building a particular product, for a specific target market. Buyer beware. You are buying a product, but also a philosophy. They never set out to build a reliable car, or a durable car, as their top design priority. It isn't designed to break, reliability is just some distance down the list. Yes, some run for a long time, and that is great. But BMW set out to build a driver's vehicle, one that includes lots of technology. The two different design briefs are somewhat at odds with each other.

BMW likes to use technology. They aren't the only company that sets a team of engineers to work designing a fix for a problem that some don't see as a problem. The oil separator makes the exhaust cleaner, allowing BMW to get points on the various regulations about ULEV, SULEV, etc. No oil mist in the intake means cleaner exhaust. A complicated solution, to be sure, but one that is predictable given their approach to design.

People who expect BMW to provide warranty on an eight year old vehicle, or one that hasn't been operated according to the owner's manuals clear guidance, should be on their own. During the warranty period, BMW has been covering oil separator failures and just adding it to the cost of the new warranty, when some cases of failures are clearly made worse by the driver's practices (short trips, extended warmups, etc).

Think about this: how many people buy a TV or computer and expect to be using it as their primary device in eight years? Almost none. I am continually amazed at the people who change their oil every 3000 miles, because they believe it will reduce piston wear at 200,000 miles. Can you imagine what it is going to be like maintaining the electronics on an E70 in eight years? The mind boggles. Many of those vehicles will be parked, and not because the engines are worn out.

/rant off

nothing comlicated in any of thier designs-it`s all elementary. when i say bmw i also mean dealers-warranty-emergency service.the past couple of years have been a nightmare dealing with any of them. i do not expect any car that is run regular to last forever but bmw seem to have a disproportionate amount of problems especialy when one considers the price premium paid for vehicles and parts. dealers frequently exagerate problems to make more money(i have evidence on this practice) or when problems arrise through thier incompetence they bullshit customers in attemt to fraudulently charge customer.

[JCL]

Continuing off topic.....

Originally Posted by amacman

nothing complicated in any of thier designs-it`s all elementary. when i say bmw i also mean dealers-warranty-emergency service.the past couple of years have been a nightmare dealing with any of them. i do not expect any car that is run regular to last forever but bmw seem to have a disproportionate amount of problems especialy when one considers the price premium paid for vehicles and parts. dealers frequently exagerate problems to make more money(i have evidence on this practice) or when problems arrise through thier incompetence they bullshit customers in attemt to fraudulently charge customer.

The oil separator isn't elementary, it is a typical German engineering approach. Lots of moving parts, not much simplicity. Another example is BMW seats. Why would a seat with 20 way electrical adjustments, heating, and so on, be reliable? Reliability would start with fewer adjustments. So what is the BMW response? Add active bolsters, put power seats in the rear, make it four heated seats, let the computer control the adjustable intensity of the heat by zone, and lets mount DVDs in the headrests. It is a friggin' seat, it is supposed to be for sitting on.

I am surprised that you are putting dealers, BMW, and roadservice companies in the same club. Does BMW own your local dealership?

High price doesn't equate to high reliability. A Toyota is more reliable than a Ferrari. Put another way, if two manufacturers design cars for the same price point, the company that spends design and manufacturing money on high tech performance features has less money to spend on reliability. It is a trade off. Yes, the car should function. But there is no reason for A BMW to be more reliable than a cheaper car, that is a faulty assumption IMO.

[diyanich]

true

Originally Posted by JCL

I am continually amazed at the people who change their oil every 3000 miles, because they believe it will reduce piston wear at 200,000 miles. Can you imagine what it is going to be like maintaining the electronics on an E70 in eight years? The mind boggles. Many of those vehicles will be parked, and not because the engines are worn out.

/rant off