Transmission Reliability

[JCL]

Originally Posted by willgabriel

BMW's cost/benefit ethos/ethic has sacrificed its customers in this area for far too long.

I am not a BMW employee or shareholder. But if I was a shareholder, I would be fairly happy with BMW's focus on driving enthusiasts, customer loyalty, repeat sales, and profitability. BMW is one of very few remaining independent vehicle manufacturers and has been able to compete by focusing on the owner experience. I suggest that BMW sales results over the past 10 years supports that thesis.

If one unhappy customer is replaced by multiple happy customers (just extrapolating the sales figures referenced above), to the benefit of BMW shareholders, isn't that the objective of a for-profit company?

[Quicksilver]

willgabriel

I guess where I'm having trouble with your argument is when you say
"I am arguing is BMW transmission components fail before the "lifetime"
a reasonable person would expect to get from a transmission on a $60k+ vehicle ... (150k miles would seem reasonable)"

Who sets the standard for reasonable? Why not 300K. Why is your decision that 150K a reasonable sound basis for a formal legal complaint?
And you still didn't answer my suggestion about hashing it out with
BMWNA to see what they think about your expectations.Isn't that reasonable?

Finally seeing as how your transmission has not failed, I fail to see
what you're complaining about......

[Fraser]

As of a year ago (Jan '09), BMW had sold 845,000 X5s world wide. Sales to date are now close to 1 million units. If X5s were as flawed and unreliable as some people seem to think I would say that we would have heard a lot more about it.

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by JCL

Your warranty statement may be different than mine, I am not sure what US law states about consumer's expectations for component life up to triple the warranty period (50,000 miles). My warranty states that there are no implied warranties beyond what is covered by the warranty statement. That pretty much excludes nuisance law suits by owners wanting lifetime warranties.

I don't see the connection to the BMW fluid change recommendations in any way. If you can make a connection between not changing the fluid and the transmissions failing (during the warranty period) then I get it. Since we don't have any documented history on transmission failures that are due to the BMW fluid change recommendations, they are entirely irrelevant.

If a failure happens during the warranty period, I fully support the rights of the owner to claim against that warranty. Black 5 appears to have had a valid claim, and from what I have read above he should have received the benefit of the warranty he paid for. I am not advocating that he should receive a free warranty three times longer than the one he paid for, but I am glad to see that his dealer (who appears to be somewhat incompetent) finally dealt with it. Usually, documenting a problem before the expiry of the warranty is sufficient to be able to make a claim if you have a failure soon after the warranty expires. If a dealer is non-responsive, I would simply go to another dealer, assuming that is an option.

I am not sure what the point of your attacks on BMW enthusiasts are. It seems to be that if we agree with you fine, and if we don't we are either on the BMW payroll or blinded by some sort of fanboy mentality? Is that the full extent of your argument? How about if we have several decades of experience in dealer service management (non-BMW in my case), and we simply think your argument is entirely without merit?

1. It is not an attack on BMW enthusiast. Most that I know are reasonable. 2. BMW establishes the warranty, AND ALSO labels their transmission "maintenance-free" which, yes, includes the fluids, but also the other components that are failing leading to the need for a full transmission change. And what do you mean there is not necessarily a connection between not changing the fluid and BMW's rec to not do so? If there was no connection, why did BMW change their policy? Hmmmm ... again, the fact that BMW gets to define the warranty period while also making expert rec's regarding how major components are maintained, BUT THEN wants no culpability when a major component that most reasonable people would expect to last 150k miles fails is highly problematic and grounds for a formal complaint.

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

willgabriel

I guess where I'm having trouble with your argument is when you say
"I am arguing is BMW transmission components fail before the "lifetime"
a reasonable person would expect to get from a transmission on a $60k+ vehicle ... (150k miles would seem reasonable)"

Who sets the standard for reasonable? Why not 300K. Why is your decision that 150K a reasonable sound basis for a formal legal complaint?
And you still didn't answer my suggestion about hashing it out with
BMWNA to see what they think about your expectations.Isn't that reasonable?

Finally seeing as how your transmission has not failed, I fail to see
what you're complaining about......

Reasonable is determined by social mores and expectations in conjunction with an evaluation of similar products. I throw out 150k miles as I suspect most vehicles' transmissions last that long without needing to be fully replaced. Otherwise, yes, contacting BMW NA is a good idea. Of course, the weight of that correspondence - which has already been initiated by others - would be benefited by a formal complaint. Finally, why do we defend and come to the aid of people being robbed? Because it is wrong, and we know that if there is injustice for one, then none of us can rest assured that we shall have justice.

And for the person posting about the mass number of BMW X5's sold and the small number of complaints, on this board alone there are many, many complaints. That leads me to believe that there are many thousands throughout the world. That is enough to get BMW to change their policy - IF a formal complaint is filed, and argued effectively.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by willgabriel

what do you mean there is not necessarily a connection between not changing the fluid and BMW's rec to not do so? If there was no connection, why did BMW change their policy?

I never said there was no connection between not changing the fluid and BMW's recommendations. On some models there is a recommendation to change the fluid at 100,000 miles, and on others there isn't. I said there was no connection between not changing the fluid and transmissions failing from lack of fluid changes.

I don't know that BMW did change their policy. That is a conspiracy theory. It is similar to the urban myth that BMW went to extended fluid change intervals only because they started paying for fluid changes in some markets.

BMW has had different recommendations for different transmissions. They changed their transmissions before changing their recommendations. I don't have a record of them going back and changing the recommendations on transmission models that were superceded, at least on the models I have owned. Perhaps they did, I just haven't seen it. If you have the BMW bulletin (SIB or TSB) that changes the interval, please post it.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by willgabriel

Finally, why do we defend and come to the aid of people and companies being robbed? Because it is wrong, and we know that if there is injustice for one, then none of us can rest assured that we shall have justice.

Fixed your post. Agree completely.

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by JCL

Fixed your post. Agree completely.

Okay, I think it is very clear that, on the whole, major corporations with the funds to hire numerous attorneys and prolong court cases mete out far more injustices than do consumers. To think otherwise strikes me as naive ... or do you have a financial interest in BMW (or another major company)? Oh, and btw, before you think otherwise, I am all for tort reform that limits liability in certain cases, but I am also for consumers having fair access to / representation in the adjudication of cases in which they would otherwise be at the merciless machine that is consumerism and cost/benefit analysis.

[JCL]

Since it is a BMW X5 board, perhaps we should point to cases where BMW attorneys have systematically meted out injustices. While I am sure there are more, I only know of one, and it had to do with this website, which used to have the name X5 in the URL. I haven't seen any related to transmission failures, which is the subject at hand.

I suspect I am going to have to get out my books by Ayn Rand if we are going to go off into the tangent of 'merciless machines that are consumerism.'

[Quicksilver]

Ah OK I get it now. It appears to me at least that you believe you have
assumed some sort of moral stand regarding BMW transmissions.
You also believe that BMW is purposely robbing people by installing in
X5's a transmission they know will fail prematurely.

I believe Fraser expressed it this way "BMW has sold 845,000 X5s world wide."
If what you say is true then either 845,000 X5s world wide will
fail prematurely or some will fail. The question then becomes
what are the published facts regarding the amount of
transmissions that have failed according to your recollections that would lead us to presume
that an injustice and terrible wrong has been committed and justice is required?
How many of the 25K members on this board have
transmission troubles that can attributed to some sort of
premature failure BMW planned in order to cheat customers.

I sympathize with anyone who has had difficulties regarding their
transmissions but like all vehicles I have owned I expect that
at some point mechanically something is gonna break. When it
does break I wont believe and I doubt anyone believes there is a
moral conspiracy on the part of BMW to cheat or rob people
regarding transmissions. But then you never know. Someone at BMWNA
may indeed be sitting in a board room trying to figure out
how to rob the next unsuspecting BMW owner.

Originally Posted by willgabriel

Reasonable is determined by social mores and expectations in conjunction with an evaluation of similar products. I throw out 150k miles as I suspect most vehicles' transmissions last that long without needing to be fully replaced. Otherwise, yes, contacting BMW NA is a good idea. Of course, the weight of that correspondence - which has already been initiated by others - would be benefited by a formal complaint. Finally, why do we defend and come to the aid of people being robbed? Because it is wrong, and we know that if there is injustice for one, then none of us can rest assured that we shall have justice.

And for the person posting about the mass number of BMW X5's sold and the small number of complaints, on this board alone there are many, many complaints. That leads me to believe that there are many thousands throughout the world. That is enough to get BMW to change their policy - IF a formal complaint is filed, and argued effectively.