FYI Some good Transmission tips

[Ghost-Flame]

My new friend owns 5 Transmission shops in the area here (family of a bunch of brothers). I was looking at his web site and he has some tips that might be helpful to the novice owner that wants to keep their transmission going for a long, long time. I'm not advertising but, these guys have a rep for talking the customer out of expensive repairs. I know tons of their customers that were told they needed a new trans, by a dealer, when in fact they only needed a less expensive solution. No Names so as not to violate the forum ad rules.

PROVIDING SERVICE EXCELLENCE SINCE 1967
TRANS TIPS


1. Check transmission fluid regularly and properly. Automatic transmissions require various types of fluid, check owners’ manual for proper fluid types and filling procedures or consult your local transmission specialist.

2. Check transmission fluid after running hot. High heat situations can cause fluid levels to decrease due to burning scenarios. Any low fluid level situation will cause friction which is the main damaging factor in transmissions.

3. Install an external cooler in high stress conditions. If you are towing or plowing you are increasing strain on your transmission. The increased stress will cause higher temperature coefficients which then in turn can damage transmission components. Installing external coolers can aid in prolonging the life of your work vehicle.

4. Change transmission fluid more often in high stress conditions. The above mentioned conditions cause higher temperature coefficients. When these instances occur, the integrity of the fluid breaks down and it looses some of its lubricating qualities (viscosity). When this occurs the fluid heats up faster and lubricates less leading to higher friction quantities and eventual breakdown of drive train components.

5. Check any malfunctions promptly. Your vehicle is much like yourself. They key to fighting off any ailment is early detection. If you notice something operating out of the norm have it checked out immediately by a service professional.

6. Have the transmission linkage and other adjustments checked periodically. These adjustments should be checked periodically to ensure proper operation. If linkages and other adjustments are out of spec, they can cause in proper pneumatic operation and damage. This is especially crucial after any accident as driveline components can be extensively damage through the shock of an impact.

7. Keep your engine properly tuned. Engines that are not properly cared for can often times display symptoms that may seem like transmission issues.

8. Have other drive train components that may affect transmission function checked regularly. Other elements of the driveline can effect the life span of any transmission. Excessive vibration from bad universal joints or mounting bushings can cause excessive movement that is damaging to the transmission. Other elements including engine management electronics can effect the performance of your transmission.

9. Have your vehicle's cooling system checked twice a year for leaks, proper coolant level and strength. Vehicles with non-external transmission coolers utilize the vehicles radiator for cooling functions. If the antifreeze has deteriorated to the point that its cooling capability has been compromised, not only can it damage engine components but transmission components as well.

10. Take your vehicle for a complete physical check up at least once a year. This tip could be key in early detection of less noticeable defects.

[PersonaNonGrata]

Thanks for passing on the advice!

The problem is, though, BMW specifies a lifetime fill of transmission fluid and the debates go on and on about the efficacy of changing the transmission fluid in our E53s. I wonder what your friend would say about the situation we face and whether he has any experience with E53s?

[HPIA4v2]

Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata

Thanks for passing on the advice!

The problem is, though, BMW specifies a lifetime fill of transmission fluid and the debates go on and on about the efficacy of changing the transmission fluid in our E53s. I wonder what your friend would say about the situation we face and whether he has any experience with E53s?

To me, looking at all fluids colors from the dirtiest/nastiest compare to virgin fluids (I did all these fluids at least twice so this is not based on lab tests but just looking at color)
1) trans fluid
2) PS
3) xfer case
4) brake
5) diff
6) coolant

I am not arguing you should change the trans but if you do the last 5 and think the first one is a waste, I need to hear some good reasoning.

[Ghost-Flame]

Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata

Thanks for passing on the advice!

The problem is, though, BMW specifies a lifetime fill of transmission fluid and the debates go on and on about the efficacy of changing the transmission fluid in our E53s. I wonder what your friend would say about the situation we face and whether he has any experience with E53s?

I will ask him?

I think that long-life trans fluid in our e-53s is related to the extended warranty that includes maintenance. They have done models and cost analysis to se what benefits BMW the most during their warranty. Lets say a flush fill at 50,000 miles cost them $45 for Fluid+ $50 for a filter. That's $95 per vehicle x 1,000,000 cars(I don't know) around the world. 95 million and let's say that 1 in 500 fails during their warranty that's that's 20,000 trannies at say $3000 their cost to replace. that's $6 million to replace transmissions.

And since consumers in western countries consumers are always wanting a new car in 5 yrs or less. they save $89 million per year. I on the other hand want to keep my car for 300,000 or 15 or more years. I don't want to be saddled with transmission replacement. BMW doesn't care one wit about me as a consumer or their vehicle after the warranty runs out.
I have had 2 cars go over 250,000 miles on the original trans(never ever failed). A Ford pick up and a Toyota 4 runner, I changed the atf and filter every 30,000 miles. I have never in 40 yrs of owning vehicles ever had to replace a transmission.

Now that there is synthetic atf I change all my cars at 30,0000 to 50,000 miles including my X5. I currently have 142,294 miles on the original transmission. Recently a BMW tech had to take it for a test ride for something else. He asked if the trans had been replace recently because it shifted so strong and smoothly. I'm guessing that this Chevy transmission is no worse than my 1982 chevy van that had 150,000 mile on it, zero trans problems, when I sold it (it better not be worse or we all overpaid for the BMW and we should sue the BaTards).

Anyway I will never believe that changing and CLEANING any type of lubricant or fluid will ever cause my vehicle harm. And I am an experiment with my own transmission.

BMW makes Kool Aid and if we drink it they make 100s of millions in savings on the maintenance free warranty.

I have worked in enough companies to know that they are there to serve the bottom line and stock holders (and so they should) and they will project the least cost alternative to the corporation. Not your car or mine. They don't give a darn about you.

So, I do, what I have done best, for 40+ years of vehicle ownership and my current x5 situation is anecdotal helping to prove my point.

Edit:
There's one more thought. It is widely discussed HERE that the trans is the X5 weakest link. We here, if you have an E53 then its out of warranty and likely close to 6 figures in mileage. We are the ones shouldering the cost of BMW's neglect. So, we talk about it a lot and some take the company position and some use their own mechanical aptitude or experience. There's no right or wrong.

i will ask him.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by HPIA4v2

To me, looking at all fluids colors from the dirtiest/nastiest compare to virgin fluids (I did all these fluids at least twice so this is not based on lab tests but just looking at color)
1) trans fluid
2) PS
3) xfer case
4) brake
5) diff
6) coolant

I am not arguing you should change the trans but if you do the last 5 and think the first one is a waste, I need to hear some good reasoning.

Colour doesn't mean anything, unless it is an oil and is milky white (indicating water contamination). Lubricating fluids are designed to hold contaminants in suspension, so they get dirty looking by design. That doesn't mean they are worn out.

Your #4 should be done every two years, because it is a hygroscopic fluid. It gets contaminated with water, which can boil (soft pedal) and cause corrosion in the brake system ($$).

Your #6 can be checked for the level of conditioners it still has in it, but it is just as easy to replace it every four years or so.

Your #s 2, 3, 5 can be changed as you like, as there is no downside (other than cost). Clean fluid is generally a better thing. The fluids are unlikely to be worn out at 100,000 or whenever you do them, but since we all here tend to like cars and like working on them, we feel good when we change them. And since there is no downside, even a slight benefit is a good thing.

#1 is the only one on the list that has a possible downside to changing it. It isn't designed to be changed, so you can't get more than 40% - 50% of it out. If you change it several times in quick succession, you can get most of it changed, but that drives up the cost. It is a sealed system, so it doesn't get contaminated. The fluid gets thicker over time, and the transmission adapts to that (by monitoring clutch engagement). When you change it you introduce a new fluid that has a lot of detergent in it (by design). That new fluid is thinner, and the detergents tend to flush out the transmission. If there is any crud in there (and there will be) it can create a blockage in one of the small passageways or check valves in the valve body. It won't necessarily happen, but it is a risk. If there was a clear or measurable benefit to changing the fluid, then it would be worth evaluating the benefit over the risk. But since there is no measurable benefit other than the feel good factor, and there is a small but real risk of doing damage by changing it, many of us leave it alone. The way to avoid the risk of disturbing sediment is to decide that if you are going to change it at all, to change it early and often. If you went every 30,000 miles, for example, there would be very little risk of disturbing sediment. But it would cost a lot. And when you got to 150,000 miles and had done 5 changes ($$) you wouldn't necessarily expect to get any more life than if you had never touched it. Look at all the stories of failed sensors, wiring, solenoids, and mechanical parts that are not impacted by lubrication quality (like snap rings, or the common torque converter failures). Changing the fluid isn't going to buy you a pass on those issues. You may just get a failed transmission that you have spent $$ changing the fluid on. There are documented cases of transmissions that shifted fine, no troubles at all, then got a fluid change with the correct fluid, and failed soon after. I have experienced it myself. It isn't a myth, it can happen, including with the BMW transmissions. Some cases are documented on this board. Transmission shops clearly understand this failure mode.

For those that view this as a cost-saving issue, I see their point. But I would also comment that BMW and ZF service instructions say that if as part of a repair in a dealer shop you have to drop the transmission pan and thus drain the fluid, to reuse it. That actually costs them quite a bit, given the cost of labour. Why do they do it? Because the fluid that is worn in is actually better for the transmission than new fluid (as long as it is not burnt). They avoid the risk of fluid changes caused by adding high detergent fluids.

I listed all six points because I don't see them as comparable. Your transmission fluid has nothing in common with your brake fluid. And the failure mode of brake fluid is well understood. That is why it is a 2 year change cycle. It is the most cost-effective way to maintain your brake system. Just ask all those who had to rebuild calipers early.

That is the short version of why many of us who believe strongly in preventative maintenance, and who have worked with vehicles for years, won't change the transmission fluid in our BMW automatics. And there are others who believe the contrary position. That's fine, but since you asked, there are my own reasons.

[HPIA4v2]

Originally Posted by Ghost-Flame

not copied

Ghost, I agree with you about BMW policy; while there is no smoking gun about ext-maintenance intervals but there is strong motive, LEASE.

Why make car that "allegedlly" last when you can have repeat customers every 3-4 years. My CA always make funny face about me owning out-of-waranty BMW and then show me all the math about how wonderful lease is.

BTW, I once work for robotic company making pick-and-place machine to program chips, the output is slower than what the customer wants (I thought at that time we are splitting hair when it takes 4-sec to program one device when they feel 3-sec would be great); turns out our sales people put a good spin on that so the customer ends up buying 2 more units. the moral of story, let that BMW neglected and you come back buy another one sooner than later

BTW, ghost @140k you are behind Wally on your 3.0 X5

[Ghost-Flame]

Originally Posted by JCL

....

#1 is the only one on the list that has a possible downside to changing it. It isn't designed to be changed, so you can't get more than 40% - 50% of it out. If you change it several times in quick succession, you can get most of it changed, but that drives up the cost. It is a sealed system, so it doesn't get contaminated. The fluid gets thicker over time, and the transmission adapts to that (by monitoring clutch engagement). When you change it you introduce a new fluid that has a lot of detergent in it (by design). That new fluid is thinner, and the detergents tend to flush out the transmission. If there is any crud in there (and there will be) it can create a blockage in one of the small passageways or check valves in the valve body. It won't necessarily happen, but it is a risk. If there was a clear or measurable benefit to changing the fluid, then it would be worth evaluating the benefit over the risk. But since there is no measurable benefit other than the feel good factor, and there is a small but real risk of doing damage by changing it, many of us leave it alone. The way to avoid the risk of disturbing sediment is to decide that if you are going to change it at all, to change it early and often. If you went every 30,000 miles, for example, there would be very little risk of disturbing sediment. But it would cost a lot. And when you got to 150,000 miles and had done 5 changes ($$) you wouldn't necessarily expect to get any more life than if you had never touched it. Look at all the stories of failed sensors, wiring, solenoids, and mechanical parts that are not impacted by lubrication quality (like snap rings, or the common torque converter failures). Changing the fluid isn't going to buy you a pass on those issues. You may just get a failed transmission that you have spent $$ changing the fluid on. There are documented cases of transmissions that shifted fine, no troubles at all, then got a fluid change with the correct fluid, and failed soon after. I have experienced it myself. It isn't a myth, it can happen, including with the BMW transmissions. Some cases are documented on this board. Transmission shops clearly understand this failure mode.

....

I never heard of that highlighted in red above. Hmmm, sounds like the original fluid gets better with age for that trans... hmmm. I'd like to see that rational in a BMW letterheaded service memo or BMW shop manual or the transmission builder offers this rational somewhere at BMW University and can be verified. Until I see that Then what you say is an opinion My transmission is not a ZF, it is an XE GM 5L40-E. They only say,as far as I have seen, that you shouldn't and you should rescue it and replace the old fluid during a repair... They don't say why and they never will.


I don't know what GM is telling their new customers who buy chevys etc. with these transmissions but, I know Ford is still suggesting 30,000 mile changes at least in my '05 explorer.

I clearly don't understand, If particulates are held in suspension how can sludge build up? If particulates are held in suspension then why am I not flushing them out when I drain and fill? If particulates are held in suspension then abrasives are constantly wearing on your mating surfaces with never a break, how can that be better than new fluid?

100,000 miles is the life of the transmission after it has been prematurely chewed up by dirty, micro gritty atf,that is left in by the Motor Werks. They like... no love... to take your 6,000 clams when THEIR dirty atf has ruiend the transmission before its time. when atf changes could have prolonged trans failure and the extraction of said $6000.

If the above old fluid theory was true then ... I don't know do I?

PS I have the next 33 bottles of atf ageing on a shelf in my garage... I rotate it and turn it every month... Orson Wells checks in occasionly to see what's up.

[740ilDuke]

Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata

Thanks for passing on the advice!

The problem is, though, BMW specifies a lifetime fill of transmission fluid and the debates go on and on about the efficacy of changing the transmission fluid in our E53s. I wonder what your friend would say about the situation we face and whether he has any experience with E53s?

BMW has since retracted that bull headed statement. It's a good way to get $6-7k service bills at dealers, but in the end is nuts that they ever made that statement. Not one dealer that I have approached will do the pan drop/filter swap and refill. I ask for fun half of the time. Luckily it's a VERY easy job that anyone can do with 4 ramps/jackstands, a couple of wrenches, and a $10 fluid pump.

I bought my X5 from a friend with 177k, and changed it immediately. I've had 4 E38's that have the same transmission, and I changed the fluid on all of them with perfect results.

[HPIA4v2]

IMHO, anyone opnion's has merit on this issue and I thank you all for the contribution.


This is not rocket science ala Boeing simulating the rivets stress analysis (when one row of rivets will break after the cabin compression/decompression), exact to number of take-offs/landings within certain deviation.

This is preventive maintenance, no one for sure can tell me when my trans will crap out on me (at what mileage with deviation), if I change or don't change the fluid. If one compare the cost of trans flush to new rebuild trans versus any of the above components listed I don't see flushing trans is outrageous costwise. As a matter of fact it falls within same logic, it's cheap enough to just flush xfer-case compare to replacing it, again in hope flushing will buy you time when in fact it may not.

[Ghost-Flame]

I hope I didn't squelch anyone's opinion... when I get on my soap box you can't shut me up... this has not served me well at times

I talked to my friend who owns the Trans shops about the bmw long life/ lifetime trans fluid deal.

If a BMW comes to him and the car's trans is functioning the way it should regardless of the miles he will do the fluid change. If it's newer under 50,000 miles he does the power flush. if it's a higher than 50,000 then he does the pan drop, drain and fill 3 times. On the next change they do the power flush in both scenarios. he does the filters at the same time.

In transmissions that he has fluid changed, remember no apparent defects in the trans he has never had a failure related to the fluid change. He said he does not believe that any machine that reaches the high temps of a transmission doesn't need it's fluid changed. He also said that in transmissions that he maintains for people it's nothing to get 200K+ out of a transmission.

He basically doesn't buy it, and he said all transmissions should be maintained with change intervals.

This doesn't settle anything but, an expert has weighed in.