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  #1  
Old 12-07-2011, 05:03 PM
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CCV and oil pressure pondering

I have been reading dozens of threads on this and here is what I have concluded. Just wanting to see if most of you agree.

I have two 03 X5's, 4.4 and 4.6is. Never had a problem till now but the 4.6 (91K miles) just started blowing small amounts of oil out of the oil filter cannister, enough to leave a 3" diameter puddle. I suspected too much pressure in the oil system but did not know why until I started reading the forums. Yep it is the usual suspect, very cold at -4 F outside and 40 in garage, short trips under 5 miles. (Btw, I did not know I should avoid this behavior until now). Mechanic-ing is not my strong suit expecially in a frigid garage with sub 0 temps outside. If it were warmer I would probably attempt this DIYS.

It has done this twice, about two weeks ago and again today and never a spot of oil at all. The first time it happened I did not correlate the cold and short driving distance. It seems to stop once I start regular driving habits again. I have only lost about 1/8 mark on the dipstick. So here are my thoughts. Taking it to an Indie and having the CCV replaced, oil separator inspected and cleaned, replace all of the vacuum and oil hoses, and do a visual inspection on valve gaskets to make sure they are not leaking.

1) Would this be the proper protocol?
2) Once the engine and oil heat up, will the pressure be released and the oil leak stop, meaning am I ok to drive it for a couple of hours to get it to the Indie shop?
3) Any other good preventative maintenance items while this is being done?
4) I assume avoiding short start up and stops during the cold winter months?

Thanks in advance you all rock.
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  #2  
Old 12-07-2011, 05:50 PM
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Sounds like a good plan.

The pressure is from the breather being blocked. If it is gunked up, it may not open up when the engine warms. If it is partly frozen, then engine heat can warm it up, but not always. And an oil leak that has been started by a seal blowing out won't necessarily stop when the pressure is removed. Only way to tell is to watch it and see if it continues.

It isn't always possible to avoid short trips during cold months. If not, what is important is an occasional drive for a longer distance, to get it good and hot and give it enough time to boil off the condensation that collects. If that isn't possible, then the fall back is regular (annual) maintenance of the crankcase ventilation system, and cleaning out any condensate (the white paste that is formed with condensation and oil)that collects. It has probably taken several years for enough to collect to cause a problem for you now, so with the same driving behavious, an annual check should be fine.
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  #3  
Old 12-07-2011, 06:27 PM
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JCL, thanks a million. This all makes a lot of sense to me now that I know what it is about. I fortunately have not had this issue come up thus was not familiar with the issue. The wife's X5 just turned 106K on the clock and will do this maintenance. I will research said maintenance but in a nutshell what do you recommend and what time of year, before or after winter? I appreciate the response.
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  #4  
Old 12-08-2011, 01:46 AM
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Since this and other BMW boards get slammed with multiple posters with this problem, regular as clockwork every onset of winter, I would do it at the end of summer each year. You are looking for clogged or soft hoses in the crankcase ventilation system, and cleaning out the separator.
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  #5  
Old 12-09-2011, 10:24 PM
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JCL,

Thanks for the advice. I took the morning off work yesterday and did an oil/filter change on my 4.6 and put my winter wheels/tires on. I did an examination of CV boots, brakes, rotors, and all the usual suspects before putting the winter wheels on. I have elected to take her to an Indy mechanic to replcae the CCV and the oil separator before year end. I would attempt to do this DIYS if the weather was warmer but we have been dipping into the minus temps lately so I am not so inclined.

While I was changing oil and filter I inspected the oil filler cap for gunk. There was none. I am not sure how to inspect the the CCV but I assume it requires removing the plastic cover on the top of the engine (4.6). I have a Dinan strut so I am uncertain if I need to remove that to inspect the CCV. Do you know if I take the Dinan strut off, will I need to do any alignment afterwards? Since I was heading out of town I did not want to mess with trying to get to the CCV right now. I spent a couple of hours reading up on why this valve fails and all but am still confused on how to inspect and clean it. is there a DIYS link you can point me to? I got the car good and hot before and when I was done there was not a leak to be found. But then the temps were above freezing so I will just keep on eye on it.

Since both of my X5s are long out of warranty I do all the oil changes myself and have bumped them up to every 6K miles. I had a hard time with the 15K that BMW suggests and followed for the first 50K miles.

Thanks again for all your help and happy holidays to you and your family.
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:04 AM
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I have attached a link with the realoem parts book pictures of your oil separator/crankcase ventilation system.

RealOEM.com * BMW E53 X5 4.6is Crankcase-Ventilation/oil separator

Leaks can come from the return hoses, and they can get plugged. If the valve gets plugged it can create pressure in the crankcase, which forces oil out of the weakest gasket, often a valve cover gasket. Once that happens, the gasket that leaked is toast and must be replaced. The parts book picture will give you a sense of what parts are involved; inspection should include all lines, and the separator itself. You need to find your current oil leak to make sure you are fixing the leak.

No issues with respect to alignment after removing your Dinan brace IMO.

I don't know which covers need to be removed for the V8. There should be a DIY post on here about the V8, I will take a look.

edit: Here is an article on the 3.0 engine, on a 530. Note that the V8 is different, but what you will see from these detailed pictures is that there isn't a lot of room in there, and it is a bit of a rat's nest. The job isn't complicated, it is just a pain.

http://www.xoutpost.com/articles/x5/...ed-w-pics.html

edit: Here is a thread on the same subject. See in particular post #19, with the steps involved for a 2002 4.4.

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...valve-diy.html


Hope that helps.

Jeff
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Last edited by JCL; 12-10-2011 at 03:13 AM.
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2011, 08:38 PM
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JCL,

Thanks for finding these links. This is what I had been looking for but I put in CCV not oil separator in the search bar. This helps me understand a lot more.

However I am still a little confused about all of this. These links you sent talk about the oil separator but I thought from what I have read that the problem I was dealing with was with the Crank Case Valve (CCV) which I understand to be a slightly different issue. In a nutshell, I thought the CCV helped regulate pressure in the oil delivery system and the oil separator is designed to remove moisture out of the system to keep it from contaminating the oil. Am I way off base here?

I am out of town right now and been away from the internet/computer all day. Before I left town I changed the oil (almost 6,000 miles since the last oc) on my 4.6. I started her up and not a drop of oil. Two times my oil leak started on a super cold morning seeping oil out of the the top of the oil filter housing then dripping on the concrete. Both times it happened it was extremely cold, the car had not been getting a lot of use. Once it warmed up the seeping stopped. I try not to take the 4.6 out when the weather is fowl and there is snow on the ground. So sometimes it might sit 3 or 4 days not being driven or even started.

I am also assuming that changing the OS or the CCV is similar on the 4.6 to the 4.4. Is this an incorrect assumption?

Again, JCL I really appreciate your time and knowledge. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL View Post
I have attached a link with the realoem parts book pictures of your oil separator/crankcase ventilation system.

RealOEM.com * BMW E53 X5 4.6is Crankcase-Ventilation/oil separator

Leaks can come from the return hoses, and they can get plugged. If the valve gets plugged it can create pressure in the crankcase, which forces oil out of the weakest gasket, often a valve cover gasket. Once that happens, the gasket that leaked is toast and must be replaced. The parts book picture will give you a sense of what parts are involved; inspection should include all lines, and the separator itself. You need to find your current oil leak to make sure you are fixing the leak.

No issues with respect to alignment after removing your Dinan brace IMO.

I don't know which covers need to be removed for the V8. There should be a DIY post on here about the V8, I will take a look.

edit: Here is an article on the 3.0 engine, on a 530. Note that the V8 is different, but what you will see from these detailed pictures is that there isn't a lot of room in there, and it is a bit of a rat's nest. The job isn't complicated, it is just a pain.

http://www.xoutpost.com/articles/x5/...ed-w-pics.html

edit: Here is a thread on the same subject. See in particular post #19, with the steps involved for a 2002 4.4.

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...valve-diy.html


Hope that helps.

Jeff
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  #8  
Old 12-10-2011, 09:29 PM
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CCV = Crankcase Ventilation system (aka Oil Separator) not VALVE. One in the same.

AFAIK, the X does not have a separate crankcase valve like a PCV valve.

Last edited by TwinsPoppa; 12-10-2011 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 12-11-2011, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinsPoppa View Post
CCV = Crankcase Ventilation system (aka Oil Separator) not VALVE. One in the same.

AFAIK, the X does not have a separate crankcase valve like a PCV valve.
Thanks TwinsPoppa, this had me really confused of course that is not to difficult. Now it is starting to make sense to me. These darn acroynms get a little distorted in the translation. After all of the reading I have done, I may attmept this DIYS but jeez it is cold now and not sure if I have the right tools. I think I need another drink...
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  #10  
Old 12-11-2011, 02:51 AM
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To build on what twinspoppa posted, CCV refers to the crankcase ventilation system. The system includes vent lines from the valve cover, and performs the same function as a positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) valve. There is actually a valve in there, as it allows pressure to be released to the intake, while not flowing the other way at times of high manifold vacuum. BMW added an oil separator in to the system, to remove engine oil mist from the ventilation system. That is cleaner, environmentally, than burning the oil mist in the engine. The oil that is removed from the vented air flow is then returned to the oil sump. It is a fairly elegant system, except that in some models the separator is not mounted close enough to the engine to be kept warm, and it can freeze up.

There is usually condensation inside the engine due to heating/cooling cycles, but in the normal course of events it is boiled off when you drive. If the engine does not get hot enough, for a long enough period of time, that condensation will build up and eventually form an emulsified paste that collects under the valve cover. If enough of it builds up, it can collect in the crankcase ventilation system. That would still not be a huge problem, except that it has water in it, and so it can freeze if it gets cold enough out. If the valve in the CCV freezes in the closed position, then you no longer have a functioning crankcase vent, and crankcase pressure can build up. What will happen is that the pressure will push out past the weakest gasket, usually the valve cover gasket. On the other hand, if the valve freezes in the open position, then during times of high manifold vacuum oil from the sump can be drawn up into the intake manifold, potentially leading to a hydraulic lock if the oil makes it into a cylinder. That isn't common, but if it does happen, it can be catastrophic.

So, this is not related to the oiling system (except that separated oil is returned to the sump).

I don't know how similar the 4.6 is to the 4.4, and it varies slightly from year to year as well, but the principles are the same.
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