The OEM manual says the Transmission...

[Ghost-Flame]

Originally Posted by JCL

Yes, that fluid violates the spec. It simply doesn't meet it. It doesn't even claim to meet it. Its written / listed on their spec sheet I posted both the M1 and the wolf's head spec sheets. If I could drive to your house I would come and show you... it's listed on their spec sheet on their site Use it if you like, but why would you? You changed to an unapproved fluid,It's not unapproved DEX3 IS LISTED ON THE mobil1 site and are having transmission issues. You decide to change the fluid again, and now you are saying you wantI don't want to I asked a question about it's compatibility to use another unapproved fluid? Why would you do that?

There is a reason why fluid makers come out with universal fluids. It is cheaper for them. Less types to make and to keep in stock means more profit. Can't blame them for trying, and in a non-critical application any old fluid will do. But why keep hunting these types of products out?

Just wondering, did you read my posts above on universal fluids that don't get tested to the Dexron spec, but just claim that they are good enough to use anyway?

I did read all your posts and don't get that If a multi spec or Universal fluid says in their spec sheet that their fluid can be substituted for oe specs then what's the problem.
I come from a legal background. I would love to challenge a manufacturer in a consumer complaint, when the manufacturer is trying to get out of meeting a spec when it is plastered all over the spec sheet of their product. Their lawyers know that as well and you can be Darn sure that whatever is on the spec sheet is going to be used as evidence against the manufacturer... they just wouldn't say it if it weren't true.
Also, lots of oil companies don't certify the spec through the oem because they don't want to pay for the license. If they say it they are formulating to the spec.... they darn well better be!

Otherwise we would have been seeing consumer lawsuits about this by now.

[Ghost-Flame]

My original post was intended to bring light to the fact that the maintenance specification Says, you MUST change the fluid at 100K miles. Yeah you can choose not to, I suppose , just like you can choose not to change your oil or coolant.

I did not mean to get into a pee-ing match over a discussion over the minute, semantic argument regarding spec, license, suggested, compatible choice of ATF.

Use whatever darn fluid that satisfies your desire as long as it is formulated to the dexron3 recipe.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Ghost-Flame

My original post was intended to bring light to the fact that the maintenance specification Says, you MUST change the fluid at 100K miles. Yeah you can choose not to, I suppose , just like you can choose not to change your oil or coolant.

I did not mean to get into a pee-ing match over a discussion over the minute, semantic argument regarding spec, license, suggested, compatible choice of ATF.

Use whatever darn fluid that satisfies your desire as long as it is formulated to the dexron3 recipe.

Dexron isn't a recipe. It is a performance spec. It is awarded when an oil passes the test. If you don't test it you don't get to call it a Dexron certified fluid. But you can call anything 'suitable for use' if you like. Means nothing

[E53inLA]

Originally Posted by Ghost-Flame

My original post was intended to bring light to the fact that the maintenance specification Says, you MUST change the fluid at 100K miles. Yeah you can choose not to, I suppose , just like you can choose not to change your oil or coolant.

I did not mean to get into a pee-ing match over a discussion over the minute, semantic argument regarding spec, license, suggested, compatible choice of ATF.

Use whatever darn fluid that satisfies your desire as long as it is formulated to the dexron3 recipe.

+1

I change it every 30K or 3 years, so I'm almost due for a 2nd change at 57k miles now. Why so often? I think it['s fair to say 30K in stop & go LA traffic is equivalent to 100K "normal" driving patterns.

When the X5 was under BMW maintenance I asked at the dealer and the SA told me "never" change the ATF. So I then asked how much $ do they charge to do it. To my shock, he wouldn't even quote a price, just said they would not perform that service even at my request. Maybe because the X5 was still in the warranty period?

This first came up with my 1999 MB E320. At 90k miles I was having some very minor slipping, so I took to an indy transmission shop for a checkup. They drained the fluid, told me "it is shot", put the fluid back in and told me the solution was a $3,500 rebuild. Did some research and decided to change the ATF for 1/10th the cost. I was told that NEW ATF could either make the problem better or worse (if the clutch plates went bad faster), but would protect the gears better. E320 has been fine ever since.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by E53inLA

When the X5 was under BMW maintenance I asked at the dealer and the SA told me "never" change the ATF. So I then asked how much $ do they charge to do it. To my shock, he wouldn't even quote a price, just said they would not perform that service even at my request. Maybe because the X5 was still in the warranty period?

Changing the fluid creates a financial liability for the dealer (that the transmission fails soon after due to the new fluid) that doesn't otherwise exist. Many shops will refuse to touch it for that reason.

[Ghost-Flame]

Originally Posted by E53inLA

+1

I change it every 30K or 3 years, so I'm almost due for a 2nd change at 57k miles now. Why so often? I think it['s fair to say 30K in stop & go LA traffic is equivalent to 100K "normal" driving patterns.

When the X5 was under BMW maintenance I asked at the dealer and the SA told me "never" change the ATF. So I then asked how much $ do they charge to do it. To my shock, he wouldn't even quote a price, just said they would not perform that service even at my request. Maybe because the X5 was still in the warranty period?

This first came up with my 1999 MB E320. At 90k miles I was having some very minor slipping, so I took to an indy transmission shop for a checkup. They drained the fluid, told me "it is shot", put the fluid back in and told me the solution was a $3,500 rebuild. Did some research and decided to change the ATF for 1/10th the cost. I was told that NEW ATF could either make the problem better or worse (if the clutch plates went bad faster), but would protect the gears better. E320 has been fine ever since.

E53inLa, I'm honored you made your first post on the thread I started. All this embattled discussion must have struck a nerve

Welcome to the board

I just bought a case of Mobil dex6 at napa and a authentic ATF fiter. Saturday morning I'll be changing ans filling 3 times.

I also picked up a floor jack from Sears which will save me a bunch of time
instead of jacking and blocking to get it high enough to get under the truck and get it level. Along with my jack stands this should be a quicker procedure.

[SlickGT1]

Originally Posted by Ghost-Flame

E53inLa, I'm honored you made your first post on the thread I started. All this embattled discussion must have struck a nerve

Welcome to the board

I just bought a case of Mobil dex6 at napa and a authentic ATF fiter. Saturday morning I'll be changing ans filling 3 times.

I also picked up a floor jack from Sears which will save me a bunch of time
instead of jacking and blocking to get it high enough to get under the truck and get it level. Along with my jack stands this should be a quicker procedure.

Ghost, this is even easier to do with two sets of ramps. By the way, don't run the engine for a long time when filling. I noticed yesterday, once you pass the 50 deg C on the trans temp, the fluid starts coming out quick. You really have to be done, and the fill hole closed within 5 mins.

1. So drain.
2. Fill with car off till it starts leaking out.
3. Start car with hole open still.
4. Go through the gears, pause in each gear for 5 sec.
5. Jump out of the car and start filling.
6. Withing 5 min, the temp is in the fill window.
7. Wait for some to leak out. Don't wait too long, it will start coming out quick once past 50 degrees.

[Ghost-Flame]

Originally Posted by SlickGT1

Ghost, this is even easier to do with two sets of ramps. By the way, don't run the engine for a long time when filling. I noticed yesterday, once you pass the 50 deg C on the trans temp, the fluid starts coming out quick. You really have to be done, and the fill hole closed within 5 mins.

1. So drain.
2. Fill with car off till it starts leaking out.
3. Start car with hole open still.
4. Go through the gears, pause in each gear for 5 sec.
5. Jump out of the car and start filling.
6. Withing 5 min, the temp is in the fill window.
7. Wait for some to leak out. Don't wait too long, it will start coming out quick once past 50 degrees.

Thanks I'll let you know how I make out

[E53inLA]

Originally Posted by Ghost-Flame

E53inLa, I'm honored you made your first post on the thread I started. All this embattled discussion must have struck a nerve

Welcome to the board

Thank you, and yes it did. As I mentioned this all started with the E320. After I took it to the indy shop, I went to MB Santa Monica, where I got the lifetime ATF song & dance. Then I drove over to MB of Beverly Hills where I was told by a service adviser that their policy is to pump out a little bit with every service and if it isn't pink, to recommend to customer to flush the ATF. I later found on an MB forum, that MB Germany issued a service update recommending ATF changes every 60K miles (or something close to that).

The idea that an SA can look a customer in the eye and say any fluid is "lifetime" gets under my skin. The guy who works on my car now told me that "lifetime" to them is 50,000 miles (or whenever the warranty expires). He used to work at both local MB & BMW dealerships.

It's a little off topic, but he also told me that the mechanics get paid much less for service performed under the BMW maintenance plan than service for $, so the mechanics show up in the morning, and push all the service plan orders off to the side to do in the afternoon. Before I knew this, one day I brought the X5 in to the dealer 7AM for an oil change, and asked if I could wait while they did the oil service. The SA has the balls to tell me that an oil change takes several hours on an X5 because "it is very complicated to change the oil on these cars". I feel very sorry for the people who buy the BS they serve up. I could keep going...

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Ghost-Flame

I did read all your posts and don't get that If a multi spec or Universal fluid says in their spec sheet that their fluid can be substituted for oe specs then what's the problem.
I come from a legal background. I would love to challenge a manufacturer in a consumer complaint, when the manufacturer is trying to get out of meeting a spec when it is plastered all over the spec sheet of their product. Their lawyers know that as well and you can be Darn sure that whatever is on the spec sheet is going to be used as evidence against the manufacturer... they just wouldn't say it if it weren't true.
Also, lots of oil companies don't certify the spec through the oem because they don't want to pay for the license. If they say it they are formulating to the spec.... they darn well better be!

Otherwise we would have been seeing consumer lawsuits about this by now.

You should ask the oil companies what the problem is. It is pretty clear to me. Mobil, for example, make a Dexron VI approved fluid. They say to use it if you are under warranty and care about liability. Then they make a Mercon certified fluid that is labelled universal that they say you can use even though it isn't certified. They cover their liability by offering the Dexron fluid. It just isn't the same as the universal one you used. This is all covered in the link you provided. Notice the diferent wording for the specs of the two different fluids

Legal liability is based on precise language. They never claimed they tested it or met the spec. Onus would be on you to prove that a failure was due to their non-certified oil. Good luck with that