The OEM manual says the Transmission...

[JCL]

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

So what you are saying is when GM or ZF design a transmission for BMW they are also designing a fluid that has NEVER be produced by any fluid manufacturer EVER before? I find this extremely hard to believe. I am willing to bet my transmission that BMW is given an existing fluid spec by the trans manufacturer, contracts a fluid provider to produce the fluid to that existing spec, then puts a BMW specific part number on that product so it can be entered into their production parts ordering process and parts inventory system.
I did a triple dump and fill (90% new fluid) with the Bentley cross ref specified Esso LT 71141 (Castrol inport car formula, Meets LT 71141) on my "03 X5 4.4 at 100k miles, have put an additional 50k miles on the truck (over 2k miles with a combined trunck and trailer weight of over 12k lbs) and have seen no issues. At least in my instance, the Bentley cross ref fluid was right on the mark.

They didn't design transmissions for BMW. They sold existing transmissions. They required certified fluid specs. GM own the Dexron spec. ESSO owns the LT spec. Lots of companies make certified fluids. BMW can buy and relabel any certified fluid they like

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Ghost-Flame

My original post was intended to bring light to the fact that the maintenance specification Says, you MUST change the fluid at 100K miles. Yeah you can choose not to, I suppose , just like you can choose not to change your oil or coolant.

I did not mean to get into a pee-ing match over a discussion over the minute, semantic argument regarding spec, license, suggested, compatible choice of ATF.

Use whatever darn fluid that satisfies your desire as long as it is formulated to the dexron3 recipe.

Dexron isn't a recipe. It is a performance spec. It is awarded when an oil passes the test. If you don't test it you don't get to call it a Dexron certified fluid. But you can call anything 'suitable for use' if you like. Means nothing

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Ghost-Flame

I did read all your posts and don't get that If a multi spec or Universal fluid says in their spec sheet that their fluid can be substituted for oe specs then what's the problem.
I come from a legal background. I would love to challenge a manufacturer in a consumer complaint, when the manufacturer is trying to get out of meeting a spec when it is plastered all over the spec sheet of their product. Their lawyers know that as well and you can be Darn sure that whatever is on the spec sheet is going to be used as evidence against the manufacturer... they just wouldn't say it if it weren't true.
Also, lots of oil companies don't certify the spec through the oem because they don't want to pay for the license. If they say it they are formulating to the spec.... they darn well better be!

Otherwise we would have been seeing consumer lawsuits about this by now.

You should ask the oil companies what the problem is. It is pretty clear to me. Mobil, for example, make a Dexron VI approved fluid. They say to use it if you are under warranty and care about liability. Then they make a Mercon certified fluid that is labelled universal that they say you can use even though it isn't certified. They cover their liability by offering the Dexron fluid. It just isn't the same as the universal one you used. This is all covered in the link you provided. Notice the diferent wording for the specs of the two different fluids

Legal liability is based on precise language. They never claimed they tested it or met the spec. Onus would be on you to prove that a failure was due to their non-certified oil. Good luck with that

[JCL]

Originally Posted by RRPhil

That ‘inventory optimiser’ fluid claims to be suitable for the ZF 6HP26 (Shell M1375.4/Ford Mercon SP), the GM 5L40-E (BMW ETL-7045E, ETL-8072B) and the ZF 5HP24 (BMW LT71141).

Having seen the (disastrous) consequences of filling a 5HP24 with Dexron on a number of occasions, the correct fluids clearly use different friction modifier packs.

I’m 100% with JCL on this one.

Phil

Thanks for your comments. I think what some posters don't realize is that due to the characteristics of the friction modifiers many fluid specs are mutually exclusive. It is impossible to meet multiple specs in some cases. But it is possible to design an average fluid for multiple specs. It won't meet them but many owners won't care

[SlickGT1]

I am with you guys on using the correct fluid. That's why I went with ZF Life 6 fluid. It cost me a bit more than the off the shelf stuff, but at least I know I used the correct stuff. I always go to the dealer to find out what they sell, then go online and buy it cheaper.

I too recommend that Ghost changes his fluid to the OE certified one.

[TiAgX5]

Originally Posted by JCL

They didn't design transmissions for BMW. They sold existing transmissions. They required certified fluid specs. GM own the Dexron spec. ESSO owns the LT spec. Lots of companies make certified fluids. BMW can buy and relabel any certified fluid they like

The point I was making still stands regardless of if the BMW trans was an existing or clean sheet design. The ATF sold thru the dealer network is nothing more then an existing spec fluid, provided by a contracted fluid manufacturer, identified by the BMW designated part number. BMW will NEVER put the spec details on the bottle because this would only provide the purchaser the info required to purchase fluid elsewhere at a lower price. Keeping the customer buying from a BMW parts source = $s!

[E53inLA]

Originally Posted by Ghost-Flame

My original post was intended to bring light to the fact that the maintenance specification Says, you MUST change the fluid at 100K miles. Yeah you can choose not to, I suppose , just like you can choose not to change your oil or coolant.

I did not mean to get into a pee-ing match over a discussion over the minute, semantic argument regarding spec, license, suggested, compatible choice of ATF.

Use whatever darn fluid that satisfies your desire as long as it is formulated to the dexron3 recipe.

+1

I change it every 30K or 3 years, so I'm almost due for a 2nd change at 57k miles now. Why so often? I think it['s fair to say 30K in stop & go LA traffic is equivalent to 100K "normal" driving patterns.

When the X5 was under BMW maintenance I asked at the dealer and the SA told me "never" change the ATF. So I then asked how much $ do they charge to do it. To my shock, he wouldn't even quote a price, just said they would not perform that service even at my request. Maybe because the X5 was still in the warranty period?

This first came up with my 1999 MB E320. At 90k miles I was having some very minor slipping, so I took to an indy transmission shop for a checkup. They drained the fluid, told me "it is shot", put the fluid back in and told me the solution was a $3,500 rebuild. Did some research and decided to change the ATF for 1/10th the cost. I was told that NEW ATF could either make the problem better or worse (if the clutch plates went bad faster), but would protect the gears better. E320 has been fine ever since.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

The point I was making still stands regardless of if the BMW trans was an existing or clean sheet design. The ATF sold thru the dealer network is nothing more then an existing spec fluid, provided by a contracted fluid manufacturer, identified by the BMW designated part number. BMW will NEVER put the spec details on the bottle because this would only provide the purchaser the info required to purchase fluid elsewhere at a lower price. Keeping the customer buying from a BMW parts source = $s!

I agree completely that the fluid that BMW relabels isn't made by them, it is a third party fluid that is certified though. It isn't a multi-vehicle universal fluid, which is the topic under discussion.

Ghost has used a fluid that isn't a Dexron fluid; even though Mobil make and sell a different fluid that is Dexron certified, if he wanted to specifically use Mobil. The risk is using a fluid that is blended to try and meet a wide variety of specs. It is sort of like using a pair of water pump pliers on a precision machine to loosen a bolt. It may work. But it is far more likely to cause a problem. And since we have seen a high incidence of problems anyway (which is the reason that posters want to change their own fluid) I think it is worth actually using the correct fluid.

You have in fact done the same thing based on the info you provided on the fluid you used. It is not an LT71141 fluid according to the Castrol site. It is a universal fluid, designed to reduce inventory charges for the shops that sell it. OK, that is a bit cynical, sorry.

Looking at the Castrol site for the particular fluid you used, they say:

Exceeds all passenger car and light truck manufacturer’s warranty requirements for vehicles,
transmissions, or power steering service where a DEXRON®-IIIH, MERCON®, or MERCON® V type
ATF is specified

They don't list any other specifications in that section. And that is the section that touches on things like their liability, which Ghost mentioned above. If you care about the liability, it is ONLY a Mercon fluid, although it appears to was also a Dexron III fluid when that spec was current.

Then they say:

Recommended for use in vehicles that require

• Honda, Acura — ATF–Z1 (except in CVTs)
• Toyota, Lexus — Type T, T–III, T–IV
• Nissan, Infiniti — Matic–D, Matic–J
• BMW — LA2634, LT71141
• Mitsubishi — Diamond SP–II, SP–III
• Hyundai — SP–II, SP–III
• Volvo

See the difference? Look further, at the product data sheet. There, they note that the fluid is certified to the Mercon specification. Looks from the wording that they were also certified to Dexron III, because they note the specification, and then say that they don't meet Dexron VI. GM doesn't license Dexron III anymore, so they can't legally say they are certified, which is just a commercial issue. I would trust them to be a decent Dexron III fluid in any case.

I know they cross reference the LT spec. But at the heart of it, it is still a Dexron III/Mercon fluid. Ask a transmission shop if you can use Dexron III in your ZF, and see what they say. Phil and others who rebuild transmissions will point out how risky that is. But the guy selling the oil says don't worry, be happy, it's all good. It's your call. I wouldn't touch it, myself. Just because you didn't have a problem doesn't mean that it is a good idea to recommend this fluid for this use. Statistically, you will be better off with the right fluid, but not 100% will fail. If you got lucky, then great, congratulations.

Just because your transmission has not failed, you can not conclude that your choice of fluid was right on the mark. If it was the other way around, and you had an immediate failure, you may be able to conclude that the choice of fluid was wrong. But just because it is still running is not proof. Proof will be when you can show that the transmission ran longer on this fluid than on the recommended fluid. You don't have that comparison set up, so the best you can hope for is that it is no worse than the OE fluid. And the worst is that it fails. It is a stacked bet, and that is why many of us say to use the correct fluid, not just one that a vendor claims is OK to use even though deductive logic (ie it is actually a Mercon/Dexron fluid, so how can it be an LT71141 fluid at the same time) proves that is illogical.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by E53inLA

When the X5 was under BMW maintenance I asked at the dealer and the SA told me "never" change the ATF. So I then asked how much $ do they charge to do it. To my shock, he wouldn't even quote a price, just said they would not perform that service even at my request. Maybe because the X5 was still in the warranty period?

Changing the fluid creates a financial liability for the dealer (that the transmission fails soon after due to the new fluid) that doesn't otherwise exist. Many shops will refuse to touch it for that reason.

[Ghost-Flame]

Originally Posted by E53inLA

+1

I change it every 30K or 3 years, so I'm almost due for a 2nd change at 57k miles now. Why so often? I think it['s fair to say 30K in stop & go LA traffic is equivalent to 100K "normal" driving patterns.

When the X5 was under BMW maintenance I asked at the dealer and the SA told me "never" change the ATF. So I then asked how much $ do they charge to do it. To my shock, he wouldn't even quote a price, just said they would not perform that service even at my request. Maybe because the X5 was still in the warranty period?

This first came up with my 1999 MB E320. At 90k miles I was having some very minor slipping, so I took to an indy transmission shop for a checkup. They drained the fluid, told me "it is shot", put the fluid back in and told me the solution was a $3,500 rebuild. Did some research and decided to change the ATF for 1/10th the cost. I was told that NEW ATF could either make the problem better or worse (if the clutch plates went bad faster), but would protect the gears better. E320 has been fine ever since.

E53inLa, I'm honored you made your first post on the thread I started. All this embattled discussion must have struck a nerve

Welcome to the board

I just bought a case of Mobil dex6 at napa and a authentic ATF fiter. Saturday morning I'll be changing ans filling 3 times.

I also picked up a floor jack from Sears which will save me a bunch of time
instead of jacking and blocking to get it high enough to get under the truck and get it level. Along with my jack stands this should be a quicker procedure.