THE X5 to have...

[TiAgX5]

Originally Posted by FSETH

Yikes. Please tell me you don't think fastest lap times = best drivers car.

Never said that. I will say that there are some hardcore owners of sport cars that like a car that can pull over 1G at speeds the Subaru cannot even attain. The Subi is nice, just not for me. I have done the run from St Pete to Orlando FL in under 30 mins (in the wee hours), are you telling me with the rolling hills and curves on 275 and 4 that too no driving skill and the viper is not a drivers car (over triple the posted HWY limit)? With the subis top speed it could not even even do that if it was a straight line closed road. LIfe begins at 150. The Subi is like a go cart for the street, I like shifter carts but not on the road or a big road course.

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

Never said that. I will say that there are some hardcore owners of sport cars that like a car that can pull over 1G at speeds the Subaru cannot even attain. The Subi is nice, just not for me. I have done the run from St Pete to Orlando FL in under 30 mins (in the wee hours), are you telling me with the rolling hills and curves on 275 and 4 that too no driving skill and the viper is not a drivers car (over triple the posted HWY limit)? With the subis top speed it could not even even do that if it was a straight line closed road. LIfe begins at 150. The Subi is like a go cart for the street, I like shifter carts but not on the road or a big road course.

I am not sure where to start. I guess first off, going over triple the posted highway speed on public roads is asinine. I don't care how many DE's, Club Races, Indy 500's, etc. you have participated in.

Also, pulling 1G at 150 mph does not make a drivers car. Of course it takes skill to drive like that, but once again, it does not automatically mean it is a drivers car. Just because a car can go 150+ mph and it takes skill and concentration to keep it under control at those speeds is irrelevant as to if it is a drivers car or not. Example, in around 1998, Car and Driver did a best handling car edition, where the e36 M3 was voted THE best handling car at any price. It beat the Viper GTS and a bunch of other faster, more exotic cars. In the corners, the Viper had higher G's. Once again, highest ultimate grip does not mean best overall handling or driver's car.

On any public road can you actually row through the gears like you would be able to in the BRZ? You think your 335 width tires would break loose a bit and be as much fun as the skinny BRZ tires around a curve (not mashing the throttle)? At reasonable speeds, the 400 lb lighter BRZ would be a blast on switchbacks, would the Viper even break a sweat? This is why some of BMW's best drivers cars are lightweight and relatively under powered. Cars like the 2002, e30 318is, 325is, etc. No nannies, lighter weight, momentum cars that you had to really work at to drive fast. The reason you drive 150 on the highway is probably because it is rather boring to drive that car at reasonable speeds. That's just not the case with some of the others.

[TiAgX5]

Originally Posted by FSETH

I am not sure where to start. I guess first off, going over triple the posted highway speed on public roads is asinine. I don't care how many DE's, Club Races, Indy 500's, etc. you have participated in.

Also, pulling 1G at 150 mph does not make a drivers car. Of course it takes skill to drive like that, but once again, it does not automatically mean it is a drivers car. Just because a car can go 150+ mph and it takes skill and concentration to keep it under control at those speeds is irrelevant as to if it is a drivers car or not. Example, in around 1998, Car and Driver did a best handling car edition, where the e36 M3 was voted THE best handling car at any price. It beat the Viper GTS and a bunch of other faster, more exotic cars. In the corners, the Viper had higher G's. Once again, highest ultimate grip does not mean best overall handling or driver's car.

On any public road can you actually row through the gears like you would be able to in the BRZ? You think your 335 width tires would break loose a bit and be as much fun as the skinny BRZ tires around a curve (not mashing the throttle)? At reasonable speeds, the 400 lb lighter BRZ would be a blast on switchbacks, would the Viper even break a sweat? This is why some of BMW's best drivers cars are lightweight and relatively under powered. Cars like the 2002, e30 318is, 325is, etc. No nannies, lighter weight, momentum cars that you had to really work at to drive fast. The reason you drive 150 on the highway is probably because it is rather boring to drive that car at reasonable speeds. That's just not the case with some of the others.

Lets see, where to continue.....just because it is not condoned in the "nanny state" US does not make it " asinine". Countries in europe have sections of highway with no speed limit whatsoever that actually have LOWER crash/fatality rates then the best hwys in the US. High speed on an open road without traffic does not always end in a fiery wreck as we are lead to believe by our government/law enforcement agencies, poor driving and drastically different vehicle speeds do.

As I stated in one of my prior posts, On a small track or tight,twisty road the Subi would be a fun car but some drivers (myself included) run our cars on big tracks and do some A to B driving that would show the Subis weak points. Nothing like coming thru a fast sweeper curve at over 100 mph and having enough power to pin you back in the seat.

[Bayerische E53]

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

4.5 lb per hp with no traction control, ABS, stability control is by no means not a drivers car. There was more then one time the rear 335s broke loose in 4th gear at speeds over 100mph on dry pavement, even at DeSoto speedway launching in 2nd on street tires I would turn low 11s backpedaling the throttle the entire 1/4 mile. IMHO ANY vehicle that has electronic driver aids that cannot be 100% disables from the drivers seat is NOT a drivers car. No sofware developer/desk jockey is going to decide how much car I can handle!

In addition, the first gen Viper was the first production vehicle in the world that could pull over 1G in a turn right off the showroom floor.

I definitely agree that a car with no driver aids is a driver's car - no question. Especially one that can bite your head pretty /fasthard like a Viper. That car is a pretty volatile machine and not forgiving at all.

According to Google, the 1st Gen. Viper's average lateral grip was down around .96g. The F40 had an average lateral grip of .94. That said, although those numbers indicate the Viper could out handle an F40 on the skid pad, when you add other variables to the equation such as sudden load transfers (what happens in real life) rather than slow load transfers (which happen under controlled conditions and are thus not realistic), I bet you couldn't find anyone who would say that the 1st Gen. Viper could out-handle an F40.

Just playing devil's advocate...

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

Last gen Viper set the track record for production vehicles at the N'ring, right out of the box with the same shock, spring, sways, tires, wing settings and alignment setting as the Vipers sold thru dealer network. End of discussion! Still the fastest to this day. Subaru ever gone to the ring to set a time?

True BUT...if I recall correctly, it was the Viper ACR rather than the standard Viper that set that lap record. The ACR came from the factory with KW ClubSports which were fully adjustable (and thus tuned for the 'Ring at the time of testing), had better brakes, FULL aero, and Michelin Pilot Sport CUP tires (you know, the DOT approved slick - it's akin to a racing intermediate...). In my honest opinion, comparing an ACR to a standard Viper is akin to comparing the E92 M3 GTS to a fully optioned E90 M3. Actually, it's a bit worse because the GTS doesn't even have fully adjustable aero.

That said, I had a friend who had an ACR. Christ, what a machine. That car literally scared the piss out of me. A month or so later he backed it into the wall at Bishop's at Sebring after the rear snapped on him. The car turned 180 degrees so quickly that he was barely able to begin counter-steering before he was facing the wrong way. What a monster. It was a write off.

[motordavid]

Meanwhile, Back at the Used Car Ranch...
that was a nice Estoril Blue MT. Wasn't pristine, but it was fairly rare, in terms of low prod volume.

2 of our 3 cars are MT. I like them, but I also realize that the CEO's auto trans runs very well. I doubt I would want to drive the X or Vette as a daily stop and go drive, with MT, though I have driven both for thousands of miles in crappy stop and go, but not for work and not 'daily'.

Btw, the VetteVert, an '02, is ~3100 lbs...not heavy by most definitions.

Back to the V8 vs 6 vs MT vs auto vs vehicle dynamics vs strippo vs loaded, etc.
GL, mD

[JCL]

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

BMW & Edmunds.com both show a 5000 lb tow limit on pre-facelift E53s with the manual trans.

I believe the 6000 lb figure for all manual transmission E53s. My reference is the BMW service instruction that was packaged with my E53 hitch in 2003. Document label is 01 29 0 009 710, if it matters. Still have it.

Towing capacities are specifically listed for V8 models (6000), 3.0 Steptronic models (5000), and 3.0 manual transmission models (6000). Those are all with trailer brakes.

Without trailer brakes, on and off road, 1650 lbs, all models.

With trailer brakes, offroad (considering jounce), 3300 lbs, all models

With the 2004 facelift, all models went to 6000 lbs with trailer brakes.

I suspect that the BMW and Edmunds figures are sourced from sales documents, not technical documents.