THE X5 to have...

[SlickGT1]

Originally Posted by FSETH

That's the thing, 700hp Viper with steam roller sticky rubber or 200 hp 2,800 lb BRZ with skinny tires. If you are driving the Viper spirited you are going to draw much more attention than the BRZ. Plus, you have to really work the BRZ and that is where the fun lies. You don't even have to try in the Viper. Not knocking the Viper at all, but the 400 pound lighter, way underpowered BRZ would be considered more of a drivers car, imo.

Yea you might think the BRZ is more of a drivers car until you drive the Viper. I got the pleasure to once. I still think it is a huge pig with a very huge engine, but it is by no means any less of a driver car. That pig will punish you like you can't imagine. You really have to work in a viper.

[Bayerische E53]

Originally Posted by SlickGT1

Yea you might think the BRZ is more of a drivers car until you drive the Viper. I got the pleasure to once. I still think it is a huge pig with a very huge engine, but it is by no means any less of a driver car. That pig will punish you like you can't imagine. You really have to work in a viper.

So true. From what I hear, Vipers tend to make drivers into one of two things: heros or dummies (don't crucify me - this is a quote from several viper owners who club race vipers).

[SlickGT1]

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53

So true. From what I hear, Vipers tend to make drivers into one of two things: heros or dummies (don't crucify me - this is a quote from several viper owners who club race vipers).

So true. It scared the crap out of me when it went sideways with part throttle in a turn. Even though it was on the track, the potential damage was something I did not want to be responsible for. My pants were wet by the end of the lap. Not sure if it was piss, or the other stuff.

[FSETH]

Any car with 700 hp can make a driver into a hero or a dummy really quick.

The Viper is a great car. What I am trying to say is that on public roads, with actual speed limits, a smaller, much lighter car with skinny tires can be just as much fun to drive if not more than a 700 hp Viper. In those conditions, the Viper isn't breaking a sweat and if it is, you are probably reaching triple digit speeds. With a car like a BRZ, you can keep RPM's higher and push the limits of the car and tires much faster. In other words, you are going to be pushing the BRZ WAY before you are pushing the Viper.

This was a good article about what a great driving car the BRZ is:

Motor Trends order:

9. Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4
8. Jaguar XKR-S
7. Ford Shelby GT-500
6. Camaro ZL1
5. McLaren Mp4-12C
4. Subaru BRZ
3. Nissan GT-R Black Edition
2. MB C63 AMG Black
1. Porsche 911 Carrera S

4th Place: Subaru BRZ
The little engine that almost did Let's get the obvious bits out of the way. Compared with the other eight contenders, the 200-hp Subaru BRZ is woefully underpowered. As Lago pointed out several times in our BDC planning meetings, the BRZ shouldn't even be in our epic nine-car drag race. Going uphill from turn 5 to 6 felt like being on a roller coaster: You're just waiting to get to the top. The brakes, while better on the track than those of the Lambo or the Shelby, really aren't track-day material. It's a $28,000 car! There are going to be compromises. And, again, this is not Best Numbers Car, but Best Driver's Car. Our hats are off to Subaru (and Toyota).

With the exception of Mazda's Miata, has any car ever punched above its weight like this? Mortara, for one, doesn't think so. "If price were a factor, the BRZ would win this competition hands-down. This car, like the Miata, proves you don't need a monster engine to be a great driving car. The clutch and shifter are perfect. I really can't find any faults with this car. Everything about it works great. After the driving loop, I had to laugh about the BRZ going out last because it was deemed the 'slowest.' Maybe out of the gate, but once you're in the turns, this Subaru feels just as fast as the rest." Adds Evans, "Man, this little thing is good. Chassis control is fantastic. Pedals are perfect for heel and toe. Great, super-precise steering. The throttle feels like it has a cable. Just so good. Anyone could learn a thing or two driving this car." MacKenzie concurs, noting, "The BRZ will teach you the most about driving fast. You'll learn not to waste momentum, to be economical with the brakes, and be precise with your lines. Be fast in this car and you'll be fast in anything." The biggest thing I noticed when jumping out of Supercar X and into the BRZ is that, qualitatively, there's no letdown once you're inside the Subie. The important stuff -- the steering wheel, the shifter, the pedals -- all feel as good, if not better, than the other cars in this test. Subaru got the major things right, especially the weight -- at 2754 pounds, the BRZ is the lightest in this group by 575 pounds (the next-lightest, the Porsche, weighs 3329 pounds) and, boy oh boy, does that pay huge dividends both on the track and the street. The sense of control you get is astonishing. Back to Evans: "When it loses grip, the BRZ slides so nicely. It's so composed that you barely have to correct a slide." Kiino piles it on: "Such great balance. Makes you feel so totally connected to the car. Confidence-inspiring, which makes the limits easy to explore. Just like the Miata, a great learner's tool and expert's toy." Speaking of experts, a certain Mr. Pobst picked the BRZ as his second car overall.

Here's what Pobst said the moment he leapt out of the BRZ: "Fabulous car! Oh, my god! I mean, really just a wonderful and satisfying experience. I feel like I can just drive this car right on the edge of the friction circle. What a satisfying ride in terms of...everything!" Of course, the BRZ didn't win. It came in fourth. A great showing, but still only the leader of the mid-pack. Aside from mild on-track brake fade, the real culprit was lack of power. It's just not that quick and you find yourself wanting more power. And could it be that lower-powered cars are just easier to drive? Here's what he said about the issue: "I think the answer there is, yes, it is easier to make a car handle right with less power because you don't have the extreme weight changes that come with accelerating fast." We'll know for sure in the near future when Subaru releases a turbocharged, 274-hp version of the BRZ. But Subaru doesn't need to make any apologies for this version. It's wonderful.

Read more: 2012 Motor Trend Best Driver's Car - Motor Trend

[TiAgX5]

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53

So true. From what I hear, Vipers tend to make drivers into one of two things: heros or dummies (don't crucify me - this is a quote from several viper owners who club race vipers).

4.5 lb per hp with no traction control, ABS, stability control is by no means not a drivers car. There was more then one time the rear 335s broke loose in 4th gear at speeds over 100mph on dry pavement, even at DeSoto speedway launching in 2nd on street tires I would turn low 11s backpedaling the throttle the entire 1/4 mile. IMHO ANY vehicle that has electronic driver aids that cannot be 100% disables from the drivers seat is NOT a drivers car. No sofware developer/desk jockey is going to decide how much car I can handle!

In addition, the first gen Viper was the first production vehicle in the world that could pull over 1G in a turn right off the showroom floor.

[Ricky Bobby]

I like how this thread is completely off topic once the driving purists of 3 pedal order are aboard lol

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

4.5 lb per hp with no traction control, ABS, stability control is by no means not a drivers car. There was more then one time the rear 335s broke loose in 4th gear at speeds over 100mph on dry pavement, even at DeSoto speedway launching in 2nd on street tires I would turn low 11s backpedaling the throttle the entire 1/4 mile. IMHO ANY vehicle that has electronic driver aids that cannot be 100% disables from the drivers seat is NOT a drivers car. No sofware developer/desk jockey is going to decide how much car I can handle!

In addition, the first gen Viper was the first production vehicle in the world that could pull over 1G in a turn right off the showroom floor.

Are we talking about overall drivers cars or drag racing? These are two different things. Having the highest ultimate cornering grip also does not automatically make a drivers car.

[TiAgX5]

Originally Posted by FSETH

Are we talking about overall drivers cars or drag racing? These are two different things?

I have done over 7 yrs of club racing with the VCA at Sebring, Daytona (24Hr international road course and oval) and Road Atlanta to name a few. Mentioned DeSoto to point out how difficult my Viper is in a straight line WITHOUT turns. My sig pic is from Sebring, tracked my Viper and ZR1 Vette that weekend, over 1300 hp between the two thanks to Hennessey Motorsport.

[TiAgX5]

Last gen Viper set the track record for production vehicles at the N'ring, right out of the box with the same shock, spring, sways, tires, wing settings and alignment setting as the Vipers sold thru dealer network. End of discussion! Still the fastest to this day. Subaru ever gone to the ring to set a time?

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

Last gen Viper set the track record for production vehicles at the N'ring, right out of the box with the same shock, spring, sways, tires, wing settings and alignment setting as the Vipers sold thru dealer network. End of discussion! Still the fastest to this day. Subaru ever gone to the ring to set a time?

Yikes. Please tell me you don't think fastest lap times = best drivers car.