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[vinuneuro]

That is mean!!

[powers1]

Originally Posted by kirkX5m

0-60 in low 5's
1/4 mile in mid 13's @ 100-105mph

Thats faster than my M3!Thats it!Definitely going to sell my X5 Diesel(oil burner)!

[JCL]

Originally Posted by powers1

An aftercooler can be either an intercooler,which is basically a air radiator that cools the air that goes thru it or a charge-cooler,where the air pushed out from the S/C is cooled with water via a secondary water radiator.
Conversions with intercooler or charge cooler will allow you to run bigger boost as these will cool the air inside your cylinder chambers.

We have different definitions here. Here is mine:

An aftercooler is between the compressor and the engine inlet (after the compressor). An intercooler, correctly named, is between multiple stages of compressors. It is a label that has been inappropriately applied to aftercoolers for some years now, so it is a bit of a moot point. The best correct examples in recent history are industrial diesel engines, in particular the DDEC 2 stroke models that had both turbochargers and superchargers. Those engines had intercoolers between the two compressors, and aftercoolers after the second compressor. We now have modern multi-stage compressors on heavy duty diesels, ie Cat series-compound turbochargers.

Both intercoolers and aftercoolers are examples of charge air coolers.

Both intercoolers and aftercoolers, which are just heat exchangers, can be either air to air, or air to liquid.

[powers1]

Originally Posted by JCL

We have different definitions here. Here is mine:

An aftercooler is between the compressor and the engine inlet (after the compressor). An intercooler, correctly named, is between multiple stages of compressors. It is a label that has been inappropriately applied to aftercoolers for some years now, so it is a bit of a moot point. The best correct examples in recent history are industrial diesel engines, in particular the DDEC 2 stroke models that had both turbochargers and superchargers. Those engines had intercoolers between the two compressors, and aftercoolers after the second compressor. We now have modern multi-stage compressors on heavy duty diesels, ie Cat series-compound turbochargers.

Both intercoolers and aftercoolers are examples of charge air coolers.

Both intercoolers and aftercoolers, which are just heat exchangers, can be either air to air, or air to liquid.

Hi JCL,
You definitely confused me!And I have been fitting intercoolers in collaboration with Allardturboport.co.uk for over 20 years.So,unlike a lot of peolple,I have as much practical experience as theory and I could show you hundreds of installations I have carried out on Diesel and petrol cars.Doesnt make any sense when you say an intercooler,correctly named,is between multiple stages of compressors!My X5 has an intercooler and its between THE turbo and the inlet manifold,like ALL intercoolers are!
Maybe our definitions are similar!Its the American English that is different from the European or British!Over here,we hardly ever hear the term "aftercooler",its always "intercooler"!As you correctly stated ,this is just a heat exchanger and has a very simple job to do,which is to cool down the compressed air blown(charged) by a Turbo or a S/C.I am sure you agree with my earlier post to KirkX5, that a intercooled vehicle is able to run higher boost pressures than one without it!Although the terminology is not correct,here we refer to a "charge cooler " as an intercooler that is cooled by liquid(water) channels around it and it has its own water radiator+pump.
I have no experience with DDec 2-stroke industrial Diesel engines,that have both Turbo and S/chargers ,so I cannot comment!I do know,however, of recent diesel car that has two Turbos,one that works at low Rpms and then the other boosts in.This also "only has an intercooler and is called BMW 535D.The engine I hope we will be seeing in the new X5 Diesel!
Again I dont know what you mean by "multi- stage compressors"!We refer to this as VGT (Variable Geometry turbo),which are the Vanes in the Turbo's compressor that are opened gradually by a rod which is controlled by a solenoid monitoring vaccum/boost pressure.My X5 Diesel has this.

Definitions can get confusing!Here we simply install intercoolers in Turbo or S/c vehicles that dont have them or we fit a bigger intercooler or we add a second intercooler to the oem one.The charge cooler(intercooler also refrigerated by water) is more efficient at reducing intake temperatures than a simple intercooler,but is more expensive and we mostly fit it on cars running higher boost pressure or cars with little space to fit an intercooler.
I will gladly submit more pictures of our intercooler conversions upon request.

[JCL]

Hi Powers1:

Hopefully this will clarify my previous post. If not, I might just be digging the hole deeper!

If we go back to the origins of intercoolers and aftercoolers, they were to cool down the charge air after it was compressed. They were called aftercoolers, because they were installed after the compressor.

Further development led to compound compressors, either multiple superchargers or turbochargers, or in the case of the Detroit engines I mentioned, turbochargers and superchargers. The term intercooler meant that it was installed after the first compressor, and before the second compressor (in between, intercooler). An aftercooler was still installed after the final compressor.

There was a lot of development of this technology before we ever got to automotive use, starting in WW2 with fighters, and moving on to industrial engines.

I think it was Volvo (not 100% sure) who started installing aftercoolers on the early 240 and 740 series, about 20 years ago. For marketing reasons, they called them intercoolers, and even put that badge on the trunk (boot) lid. We laughed a bit at that where I work, since we used 740 turbos as company cars at the time. It has been somewhat confused ever since, but apart from aftermarket and some OEM automotive installs, other industries still use the terms intercoolers and aftercoolers. Both devices do exactly the same thing, which is to cool the charge air, it is just a case of where they are installed relative to the compressor(s).

I haven't seen the use of the words 'charge air cooler' applied solely to air to liquid exchangers vs air to air exchangers, perhaps that is a local British thing. (Incidentally, don't call me American or I will call you European ) I understand the subtlety; I lived in Lichfield near Birmingham for 3 years (I even worked with turbos and aftercoolers there).

My background is as a professional (chartered) mechanical engineer, 20 years with the same heavy equipment distributor, ranging from design, to service engineering, to general management. The manufacturer we represent is the world leader in heavy equipment, and also diesel and natural gas engines. My professional automotive experience was prior to this career, cars are now simply a hobby.

To your specific comments:

I agree completely with your comment that a vehicle with a intercooler/aftercooler can run more boost than one without. It is just that I would call it an aftercooler, whether it was liquid or air cooled.

I don't know how the turbos are plumbed on the 535d, but since they are reportedly using one turbo for low speed response and another for high speed, I suspect it is a form of parallel. Could be series. Either way, if there is one charge air cooler, I would have referred to it as an aftercooler. Since BMW is the manufacturer, I guess they get to follow Volvo's lead.

By multi stage compressors I don't mean VGT, I mean one or more turbos doing an initial stage of compression, usually followed by cooling of that charge air, followed by compound compression, followed by an aftercooler. There may or may not be an intercooler in that arrangement. We typically see 2 or 4 turbos on larger engines, or 2 or 4 small turbos and 2 large turbos. I am describing here diesels that need to be very responsive from idle (for mechanical drive trucks), and still need to maintain full rating at altitude or in high ambient temperatures. The mobile equipment engines we sell and service typically range from 8 hp to 3500 hp, from 1 to 24 cylinders, not considering the large stationary engines used in marine or power gen applications (up to the 50,000 hp range).

We agree totally on the purpose and reasons for these devices. We differ only in how they are referred to, and whether the cooling medium changes how they are referred to.

I have lots of pictures too if you are interested, let me know. The ones that were the most fun were the 4500 hp V12 generator sets (100% block loading in witness tests, 24 hour certified fuel consumption tests) and the 400 ton trucks with the V24, working at 16,000 ft altitude.

Edit: PS Isn't this more interesting than cupholders and 20" rims? Thanks for the pictures - Jeff

[kirkX5m]

soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...
if i want to increase boost, i need a bigger one of those?

[JCL]

Originally Posted by kirkX5m

soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...
if i want to increase boost, i need a bigger one of those?

LOL, and you were the one who started this!

I suspect you have an aftercooler (my terminology). I suspect it is air to air. Check for us and let us know. As I mentioned above, this is a lot more interesting to us gear heads than cup holders and snow tires.

For more boost, to prevent pre-detonation, you need more cooling of the charge air. You can do that with an aftercooler (if you don't have one); with a larger aftercooler (if you do have one); or with a more effective aftercooler (often meaning that you switch to a liquid to air exchanger from air to air).

There are potential additional impacts on throttle response from the above choices. Big air to air aftercoolers tend to have lots of plumbing involved to get to where the cool air is.

[kirkX5m]

and i suspect i do have an aftercooler....someone mentioned to me if i wanted to increase boost i'd have to get a bigger aftercooler, i'm still clueless as to what it mite look like? if you post a pic of what i'm looking for then i mite go look for it under the hood!

[JCL]

You are likely looking for something that is like a second radiator. If you start at the turbo, and follow the outlet pipe, it will go through the aftercooler before getting to the intake manifold.

Was it a custom installation, or is there a web link for the kit?

[kirkX5m]

try this: http://www.dinancars.com/SeriesPrint.asp?prod=202