Driveline "Shudder" / T-case / Front Shaft

[Ricky Bobby]

2013 E70 35D, 68k Miles -

Been a weird behavior that I've been noticing more in the past year or about 10k miles or so, randomly will get this shudder from the drivetrain, which isn't engine related as its not misfiring, its not transmission related *as far as I can tell* as the car does shift fine, sometimes it "jumps" when turning the car off though, but I don't think its transmission related. *see my notes below, more of a "lurch" which happens sporadically when turning the car off, after placing in Park, E-brake on - I'm due for a ZF transmission service anyway, which will get done at my Bimmer indy, on my own dime, in the coming months*

I did a lot of research and came to conclusion that I'm looking at the front Driveshaft, or something Transfer case related (or BOTH lol) - since the vehicle is still under CPO for another 9 months or so, something I'd like to address now.

Here is my story linked from the Driveshaft thread (copy/pasted below), seeing as my wifes car is outside the "recall range" of VIN's, by a whopping 4 weeks:

https://xoutpost.com/1141946-post83.html

"Adding my experience - 2013 X5 35D, production date 5/2013

Its been one of my worries owning this car after reading these stories, then I saw that what started out as 21k cars turned into 130k+ vehicles being recalled. Then I read that the date range stops 2 months short of E70 production, April 11, 2013. My wifes was built on 5/18/2013 -

So I researched parts diagrams and looks like the driveshaft which was superseded, was used from April 2010, until FEBRUARY 2013 - So there are vehicles included in the recall which use the "new" superseded driveshaft? Seems like there really is no rhyme or reason to this, and I think they will expand the recall more in the future.

At 68k miles I got under my wifes X5 on Friday, and I could feel noticeably more play in her driveshaft, which you can see on the videos I shot for my SA, just by gripping the shaft and wiggling up/down and side to side.

I went on my 106k mile E53, and did the same thing, gripping my driveshaft, BARELY any play whatsoever - coming from my knowledge of U-joints on trucks etc I always was under the impression they should be tight and no play discernible.

My SA said to bring the vehicle in, his shop foreman could see the play, but would confirm when its in there. It would be covered under my CPO, but not under any recall as my VIN falls outside the range."

Fast forward to today, we just took a long trip to the OBX to clean up after Florence (my in laws live about 80 miles up the coast from Wilmington so got smacked pretty good, house and beach are still there, just a lot of cleanup) - Its a very sporadic vibration/oscillation/shudder scenario, very speed and load dependent, but I feel it more when accelerating or when coasting downhill on the highway or on very light throttle load - its not in the steering wheel at all, the wheels are balanced perfectly, which led me to research the transfer case and found these Service Bulletins, and surprisingly a lot of threads of E70 owners who have had ATC700 transfer cases replaced.

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=871535

Reading through the thread is a lot of the symptoms I am experiencing, and here are the relevant SIB's - I sent them to my SA at BMW down in Raleigh and I have an appointment on Monday morning to have them inspect the driveshaft play that I was able to get just by shaking the shaft up/down and side to side, however I think I also have something going on with the transfer case.

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10174641&postcount=74

**In my "theorizing", I see a lot of people who have gotten their transfer cases replaced (more common than I'd like to see), it may be something as easy as replacing the fluid and resetting the T-case adaptations (which I would have them try first), and I also see there is a servo-motor/ actuator gear "repair kit" part number on RealOEM, similar to the older T-case on the X-drive E53's, although I forget what the symptoms were on that one, I think clicking and a Trifecta? As I do my research, looks like there will be slipping/trifecta lights, clicking, etc - The symptoms I have do NOT point to it at this time (actuator / servo motor on the T-case)

The only symptom I can think of when the car is turned off is that sometimes the car will "lurch" a bit as its turned off, and its already in Park, with the E-brake engaged. I am not sure if this symptom points to the T-case or not but will research more.**


Regardless, I'm not one to demand if there is an issue with the transfer case, that they need to R&R the whole assembly, but I suspect there is more going on than just the play in the driveshaft. Depending on what the tech finds on his diagnosis, I'd be fine with getting the fluid changed / adaptations reset, and if needed, my front driveshaft replaced. And if it continues to persist then I would urge replacement of the case. However I do believe that a lot of entire transfer cases get replaced when they may not be out of their service life.

I'm obviously hyper sensitive to these sort of things when driving (my wife doesn't notice), but I don't want to be stuck out of CPO and told I need a new transfer case in another 20k miles, and looking for it to be out of pocket, which is why I'm taking care of this now before it gets worse.

Will update this thread as I go, with what transpires at the dealer next week, just looking for a central place to put my experience and leave it here to help others, or for others to add their input if they wish.


CLIFF NOTES:
-Car is under CPO until June 2019

-Concerned with play in U-joints on driveshaft (can see U-joint play when shaking driveshaft by hand, laying on ground) sent video to SA, not in the official recall but he said if its confirmed by tech, they would replace under CPO warranty

-Also get slight shudder from drivetrain at random times, mostly between 40-60, accelerating on highway, going downhill, not misfire, nothing at low speeds as of now

-Found SIB's related to inspection of Transfer Case and sent to SA

-Hoping that Transfer Case checks out ok, and can be something as easy as a fluid change and resetting adaptations
-As far as I know the CPO also covers the transfer case so not worried if in worst case they recommend replacing

[heatmizr]

Wow, sorry to hear all this.
Just fyi, I am one of those that had my Transfer Case replaced under CPO right before it ran out. I was feeling some slipping/crabbing in tight low-speed turns in my parking deck at work. I just mentioned it while at dealer for other service and next thing I know they are replacing it for me.
Unfortunately I have no experience with loose shafts.

[Ricky Bobby]

No worries man, thankfully its under CPO still for another 9 months - so if the case gets replaced and/or the driveshaft gets replaced, I'll be happy - From what I'm seeing, if you unplug the VTG on the Tcase and the shudder or vibes go away, they will look to replace the case, which is fine, as it won't be on my dime.



I have the ATC700 which is the newer version as of 2012 or 2013 I believe, but I still see F15's getting them done as well


I just wonder how many cases get replaced which only need a fluid change and adaptations reset? It just seems like I see so many transfer cases being replaced under warranty or on low mileage cars.

[heatmizr]

That is exactly what my work order said, they drove it and observed symptoms I described, disconnected the TC and drove again with no symptoms, so TC was replaced.

I don't know man, its a nutty situation these days, replace everything, with the same part that may have the same issue.

[Ricky Bobby]

Like I said, I really wonder if they replace these cases and all they need is a fluid change and reset adaptations? The adaptations compensate for the wear in the fluid over time and the clutch packs adapt to it but when the fluid is too worn it makes sense it would reach an "Adaptation" threshold and exhibit these type of symptoms whether slight like mine, or terrible.


There is nothing about R&R the fluid on the case, reset adaptations and see if problem is present first (which is about an hours worth of work for a tech), THEN if problem persists to R&R the whole Tcase -



I'm surprised BMW doesn't have that in the protocol before warrantying a whole new transfer case.


Well if mine does get replaced, I will for sure be changing the fluid every 30k miles with the differentials - its cheap insurance -

[Ricky Bobby]

Well update - Driveshaft checks out, the symptoms I occasionally experience very sporadically which I *believe* are T-case related were not able to be reproduced. They road tested it a couple times. Honestly it could be transmission behavior since sometimes it feels like its hanging between gears. Confirmed I have the newest driveshaft (the one used on the F15 models as well) so mine isnt the part that grenades and the U-joints blow apart.

Its under CPO until July 2019 so we shall see if it happens, if so I will bring it back in.

Glad to have a "clean bill of health" for the most part -

My next maintenance regimen as she is approaching 69k miles, is a full ZF transmission service (ZF recommends to perform every 60k-80k miles max)

-ZF Pan/Filter and bolts
-Mechatronics sleeve, 4 bushing "sleeves", and the bridge seal
-Lifeguard6 fluid

I'm also going to be doing the front and rear diffs with Redline 75W-90, and I'll get the Xdrive T-case oil changed (BMW fluid only obviously), and the adaptations reset in the T-case module.

Then its on to the XHP Flashtool flashing of the TCU

[ard]

Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby

Well update - Driveshaft checks out, the symptoms I occasionally experience very sporadically which I *believe* are T-case related were not able to be reproduced. They road tested it a couple times. Honestly it could be transmission behavior since sometimes it feels like its hanging between gears. Confirmed I have the newest driveshaft (the one used on the F15 models as well) so mine isnt the part that grenades and the U-joints blow apart.

Its under CPO until July 2019 so we shall see if it happens, if so I will bring it back in.

Glad to have a "clean bill of health" for the most part -

My next maintenance regimen as she is approaching 69k miles, is a full ZF transmission service (ZF recommends to perform every 60k-80k miles max)

-ZF Pan/Filter and bolts
-Mechatronics sleeve, 4 bushing "sleeves", and the bridge seal
-Lifeguard6 fluid

I'm also going to be doing the front and rear diffs with Redline 75W-90, and I'll get the Xdrive T-case oil changed (BMW fluid only obviously), and the adaptations reset in the T-case module.

Then its on to the XHP Flashtool flashing of the TCU

1. When I have problems with a car and the dealership gives me a "clean bill of health", that doesnt make *me* glad...it pisses me off.

2. I would strongly urge you NOT to use anything that doesnt have a BMW part number, until the warranty is done. Fluids, filter, etc, etc. Id be OK with a ZF OEM pan and ZF6, but thats all. no redline fluids

[Ricky Bobby]

Originally Posted by ard

1. When I have problems with a car and the dealership gives me a "clean bill of health", that doesnt make *me* glad...it pisses me off.
I guess I used the wrong wording, wasn't exactly glad, but what am I supposed to do when I can't replicate the problem and it happens so sporadically - I have the CPO active until July 2019 and the car is paid off as of January so if something happens after the CPO then so be it. For all I know, it could be a tank of bad diesel, the transfer case is approaching 70k on factory fluid, I know its probably needing to be changed anyway. Could be a multitude of factors.

2. I would strongly urge you NOT to use anything that doesnt have a BMW part number, until the warranty is done. Fluids, filter, etc, etc. Id be OK with a ZF OEM pan and ZF6, but thats all. no redline fluids
If I was worried about BMW or the horror stories, I would also follow their 11-12k oil change regimen, as well as the 35-36k fuel filter change regimen for the diesel which is the bare minimum. I've been changing my oil more frequently since the factory warranty and maintenance expired, air filter as well (dry filter by AFE), and my fuel filter is done every 22.5k (I do 7500 mile OCI's), and I even changed my tires to non-run flats.

I've found in my own experience with 2 dealers thus far since owning this car, if I am up front about the fact that I maintain my own vehicles and know my way around them, they are less likely to pull stupid games when it comes to warranty items etc. Plus the CPO is really a powertrain extension it is not a factory warranty extension. Would I expect to go to the dealer with deletes and a tune and get my turbo replaced under CPO? Absolutely not. Just because I do my own maintenance doesn't negate my CPO, within reason.

Now, that all being said, if I decided to go with my own aftermarket fluid in the Xdrive transfer case, where we know emperically its the only fluid we should be using, and it failed, of course I can understand its on me.

Since differential failure is not prevalent on the E70's or E53 for that matter, along with the notion that these are simple non-LSD diffs, I am not concerned with a fluid change with an equivalent fluid like Redline, much less worried that if my Xdrive transfer case fails, they are going to ask for my receipts on the fluid I used in the differentials. It's like asking what oil are you using when the coolant expansion tank burst. One has nothing to do with the other.


Regarding my views on Automatic vs. Manual Trans fluids -

Automatic - Yes I absolutely don't buy into the people saying "Oh just use Mercon its $6 a quart and is the same thing" - There is a reason LG6 is the only specified fluid by ZF (similar to BMW Xdrive case fluid), because of the additive package etc.

Manual Trans? We are talking a simpler system, in my E53 for example when I did the fluid change on it I used the Redline MTL (MT-90 also a good choice), as long as it meets the specs of what was removed. I believe Redline's D4 ATF is also recommended for a manual transmission, although I did not choose to use that in my gearbox. But if my E53 was automatic I would follow the manufacturer's recommendation just because its a more complex gearbox.



My theory on the transfer case is that yes it takes wear and abuse and historically on BMW's has been weak, however, there doesn't seem to be much factory troubleshooting on it besides remove and replace. My thoughts are that if the transfer case fluid was changed at a regimen of say 25k miles and done as part of factory maintenance, as these cars age I think the Xdrive system would be happier overall.

I know in a million years that would never happen, but considering that the wet clutch packs in the case, similar to a motorcycle, need fresh lubrication, I think a more frequent interval on the transfer case oil especially, would help avoid many of the "failures" we read about.

[ard]

As they say, YMMV.


If you've diagnosed your issue to the a specific component, then obviously what you do in other components shoudnt matter. But I didnt realize you had a firm diagnosis on what was causing your issues.

[Ricky Bobby]

Its either transmission related or transfer case, since I've ruled the shaft out. Unless I'm getting a weird engine surge which doesn't throw lights (doubtful)


Its not either of the differentials. Since the 6HP26 is getting a full ZF service next month I would hope that would alleviate. And of course, all the know it alls on the forums have already tempted me saying "OMG MERCON SP IS SAME THING" but I will use the Lifeguard6 for peace of mind - For a service that gets done less often than tire changes I am amazed at the amount of people who wouldn't stick to the transmission manufacturer recommended fluid.