Members report on Safety Defect in 2010 X5 35d

[ABMW]

Originally Posted by santo

Specific coding may be related to this:



CAS 3 is the Car Access System. Didn't see anything about a DMT. It's amazing what you find on the Internet

Hope this helps.

Santo,


This is precisely what I was told. The DME is a part of Car Access System, I'm guessing? I was pretty shocked, that they were issued unique codes, and asked why they didn't have the machine to do the coding at the dealership. Apparently they must be matched to the existing codes on the vehicle, per what your research also turned up.

One would have thought that all BMW dealers would be able to reflash the DME/DMT module using a notebook computer, etc. But alas, they're unable.

So, in a less technical manner than what your quoted, the SA did inform me this can only be done by BMW in South Carolina, which is in agreement with your research, so again thanks!

ARD: They're hardly terrified of me. Haaa. Rather, BMWNA came down on them pretty hard for missing this the first time, I'm told, and given the gravity of the fault, they can't let the vehicle go. It stalled for them, randomly, as well.

I've spoken to the Manager of Service who is/was a tech and we spoke in technical terms and I've also spoken to an SA who is also well versed in the issue.

To be honest, she was not lacking in technical knowledge.

Though, again, I am surprised that the modules are not interchangeable between vehicles. Obviously BMW has their reasons, but from a cost perspective it appears that it creates more expense for BMW themselves, when it comes to replacing a faulty unit.

In any event, I'm crossing my fingers for a 2-week turnaround. We shall see. If this turns into a 4-week affair, I have no idea what I'll do, but I'll hope for the best.

When I do get the exact error codes, I'll post them back here, etc.

----
Anzer, if it gets to 4-weeks, I suppose I'll take your route. But, I doubt it will get to that point, but who knows. I've had mine for a bit less time than 2.5 months, so we'll see how they handle it, if the parts aren't forthcoming.

[ABMW]

Originally Posted by ard

I have NEVER heard of a BMW DME that cannot be programmed by a dealer. It is almost unfathomable that it must be programmed in SC.

I would, however, not be surprised if they want to get at some of the hidden data and that is why they want it- and that is why it must go to SC. I've commonly seen BMW 'recall' DMEs for 'forensic' analysis after catastrophic failures. There is data there that they want to see.

I'd say it is 50% she actually believes it needs to be programmed and 50% she is telling you a story. And I dont think it needs to go to SC for programming... New DME, reload all the software, should be good to go.

All IMHO

A

PS Santo- unrelated to his issue I think- just means the DME and CAS3 are replaced as a unit, but can be locally programmed.

ARD,

You've commonly seen DME's returned to BMW? Have you worked for the company? Just curious.

Obviously, if they're keeping the car for 2-weeks to simply get at the data that's B.S. and something I wouldn't be too pleased about.

I was told that they're replacing it with a brand new one, and the old one, while functional, is fried for all intents and purposes. I quizzed her pretty hard, as it seemed unfathomable to me also. But, she had pretty intelligent and technical answers to my questions. We spoke for a good 10-mins., and again I sensed no lack of knowledge on her part. We got into shop talk, and she knew her stuff.

But, I'll call the service manager, who is a tech, tomorrow, and double check with him personally. They know the 30-day lemon limit comes up pretty fast, in these situations. Not that I want to take that route and/or be without an X5 for weeks on end while they find a replacement, etc.

Obviously, I'd simply want another 35d. But, at the moment, I simply want "my" 35d!

I'm sure BMW wants to examine the info on the DMT/DME (whatever the correct name of it is). But, I'm pretty sure it must be coded in SC.

She said the factory is the only ones who have access to specific codes that relate to this specific vehicle and the equipment to code the module is not something dealers are privy to obtaining. Again, it's in-line with Santo's research, whether or not it has to do with the CAS system.

Anyway, after reading your response in detail, I'll check in again and make sure it's not just a line they're giving me.

If anyone else has any info that would shed some light on this issue, that too would be great.

But for review, the DME is for gasoline engines only and the DMT is for Diesels. They do the same thing, more or less, save for the DMT is a bit more complicated given the environmental systems it must contend with to keep the diesel running in a clean manner (again, this is all what I was told, in a slightly more technical manner). I asked her if she'd seen any other modules fail on the 35d, and she said no.

FYI to all: she did say she's seen quite a few 35ds with fuel vent issues, which can create a similar type of stalling, but without the error message. So, that's something to keep in mind. But again, after going into that subject for a spell, she did know what she was talking about, so I don't think she was feeding me a line, but I'll try to verify.

Who knows, just want it fixed at this point, and when it's fixed all will be fine on my end. Certainly not trading it, etc. It's a great vehicle save for this issue. I doubt it the module will fail a second time, but who knows.

I'd imagine replacing these things are pretty rare. It's not like it's a Toyota ;-) ...

[santo]

I'm not in this thread to see who's pee pee is longer. I'm just relaying information I saw in a E70 technician's training manual for which I have no reason to doubt. This was from 2006 before diesel was in the mix so I have no reason to believe that there is not a DMT specifically for diesels that replaces the DME. However, I only see information for a DME for which I quoted.

Below is my interpretation so I may be wrong but I do know a thing or two about computers, software development and encryption. That was why I even remembered something about a secret key and why it had to be programmed at the factory.

For those who reading this thread not knowing what a DME is, I would consider the "Digital Motor Electronics" unit to be the main computer (ECU) of the car even though the E70 is packed with a whole host of electronic wizardry with dedicated modules for many things that I won't even begin to list (point to anything in the engine bay or under the car and it's somehow connected to the DME). One of those things is the CAS. The "Car Access Module" is the control unit for the central locking system. It also is connected to the electronic vehicle immobilizer unit, electronic transmission control module, dynamic stability control module, the DME, comfort access, diversity module (think your remote control), advanced crash safety management, the brake light switch, the hood contact switch and the start/stop button. The DME to CAS communication occurs through the use of encrypted code and hence why they both have the private key.

Given the proper programmer, I could program a DME in my basement but a tech at a dealer will not have the car's private key and it cannot be read from either of the modules that contain it. The factory will have this recorded but it is a closely guarded secret because I assume that with this private key (random number) and associated VIN information along with the proper programmer, someone of ill intentions can take their pick of any BMW they want. Cars do share components so I don't think this is E70 specific.

That said, the DME does have fault memory that can be read but I don't think BMWNA would read it at the factory however but it could be sent to Germany where some of these module engineers may look at it. Like any software, there are "use cases" that they could not have possibly imagined and if it is happening to more than one car, it may be more than a slight concern given the optics of what is happening at Toyota.

In any case, I think it's good that this get the proper eyes on it to ensure that it doesn't happen again to anyone's car.

Hope this helps.

[Penguin]

DME = Digitale Motor-Elektronic, Digital Motor Electronics

[santo]

Originally Posted by Penguin

DME = Digitale Motor-Elektronic, Digital Motor Electronics

Thanks for the correction Penguin, too many references to "management" in those docs. I've corrected above.

[StumpyPete]

Originally Posted by ABMW

Update:

Now for the lovely and somewhat strange news. The part must be specifically "coded" at BMW NA's facilities in South Carolina for each specific X5 35d. It can't simply be shipped out, as they must be flashed to each individual vehicle. That part strikes me as odd.

That is true for a number of key electronic parts. I had an Xdrive control unit replaced about two years ago and it was same story- needed coding at factory before it could be shipped out.

[ABMW]

Originally Posted by StumpyPete

That is true for a number of key electronic parts. I had an Xdrive control unit replaced about two years ago and it was same story- needed coding at factory before it could be shipped out.

Okay, I figured she (my SA) was telling the truth. No big deal. The part was ordered, so I suppose it's in BMW NA's hands to deliver it in a, somewhat, timely manner.

Thanks again to everyone who's chimed in.

[Diesel Guy]

I'm amazed that this is an issue that can only be resolved at the factory. From a Cummins perspective, we have service tools that leave a footprint in the ECM (Engine COntrol Module) whenever a technician logs in to the ECM to troubleshoot, etc. There are also customer supplied passwords that a fleet can input so no driver can pay a technician to remove and road speed or idle limitations, etc.

On occasion, the ECM locks up, or the password isn't available, and we can use a program to 'zap' the ECM and clear all the existing information on the ECM. Then start over with new programming, features & perameters, etc...........

I'm surprised that BMW doens't at least have factory techs with software more advanced than what the dealers have, that can unlock any 'secret stuff'.

[ABMW]

Diesel Guy,

Yeah, it's very odd. I think Santos is right on though. There are probably security concerns or liability concerns. Or maybe it's just dumb planning on the part of BMW, and they didn't expect these modules to fail. Who knows. It's a bit strange. I rotate cars about ever 12 to 24 months, but I've not had a main control module go out for well over a decade. I've had other modules go out on high-end vehicles, but they've never been coded or needed to be sent back to the producing company, nor had I ever heard of such a thing, prior to last night.

I now believe it to be true that they must send the units back, based on how others have had similar experiences, and Santo's research. But, it seems absurd, expensive, and a great way to put BMW under the gun.

Literally, only a few more things would have to go wrong before it would be out of service for 30-days, within the first 18-months of service, at which point Lemon Laws kick in.

That's not a route I want to take, and again, I'd simply request a new 35d, as I personally think it's the best SAV/SUV on the market in the United States, possibly the world for that matter. I can't think of another SUV I'd even consider in any price range. But, as to why they would put themselves into that position is beyond me.

Hopefully I'll get a surprise phone call and with "BMW rushed out a DMT/DME" and your car is done. I'm not holding my breath, but hopefully. I know it's taken some people 5-weeks to receive the simplest of parts that need only be put in a box and shipped. This module requires hands-on programming and data entry, testing, and shipment, so again, we'll see.


I don't blame the car or BMW NA. I think the 35d is a quality product. I just had a few slackers at my dealer, and those individuals set off 2-month chain of events.

Beyond that and a few other very minor glitches the car has been great.

[JLausch]

Just thought i'd mention that i had this warning come on yesterday @ 4k miles, although the "crippling" or w/e effects were not really existant, i was trying to plow through a snow bank (yay) so the only punishment is that i became capped @ 1500 rpm and got stock, so i shut it off, started it, backed up after shoveling a bit, and got on my way.... its going in on wednesday to get resolved... So my x5 went into limp mode basically, most vehicles have a similar safe mode.