Air Intake for a 3.0 E70?

[ard]

Originally Posted by chilliwilli

I'm aware...Even with such a setup, i believe there are reduction kits that allow the MAF to read real air temperatures. .

Perhaps you are referring to a IATS relocate kit? (Intake Air Temp Sensor)

These are not magic, they simply allow you to put the sensor at a location that MORE ACCURATELY matches the temp of the air coming into the engine.

In this thread, the picture is a cone sitting in the hot engine bat. NO IATS WILL FIX THIS! The air is hot, period. You could mount the IATS on the front grill where it would sense cool air, however this is potentially lethal since the DME is being TOLD it is getting cool air, but it is actually getting hot air (lower density) and the motor is in danger.

FYI, the air temp sensor is incorporated into the MAF, so it always measures that temp- the issue is that heat soak from the engine can influence the maf from outside the sensor- heat radiated from the motor to the maf increases it's sensed temperature - hence the maf is measuring the housing or it's own temp and is sluggish and fails to measure the cooler air that is passing the sensor. It is THIS ONE SITUATON that an IATS relocate is designed to fix....

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[JCL]

Originally Posted by chilliwilli

I'm aware...Even with such a setup, i believe there are reduction kits that allow the MAF to read real air temperatures.

I don't see the significance of the IATS reading in this case. The problem isn't the reading, it is fact that you are drawing in hot air. The ideal gas law (which is generally applicable) tells us that hotter air is less dense. Taking preheated air into the intake is directly comparable to operating the engine at high altitude, you will simply get less oxygen into the engine. Less air means less power. The temperature deltas measured by many tuners show a 5%-10% net power reduction.

Looks pretty, though, and that is what some people want out of the air intake systems, power losses be dammed.

[ard]

Originally Posted by JCL

I don't see the significance of the IATS reading in this case.

I agree, just commenting on chilli's post on reading air temps... attempting to educate as to what can and cannot be done.

I think we're on the same page here...

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[chilliwilli]

I don't disagree...thus why i mentioned that such a setup is not my preference. There are much better designs that negate hot air and contaminants. I just disagree with the old logic and debate that all intakes introduce foreign matter into the engine.

An intake alone on an inline six - SUV, personally, makes little sense to me...unless we're discussing increasing power to inline six on a track car.

Should the OP do his research and locate a truly functional air intake, coupled with engine/trany performance modifications, he may discover the added power he seeks...albeit minor in the inline six. Unless he wishes to blow $$ on forced induction.

[ard]

Originally Posted by chilliwilli

I don't disagree...thus why i mentioned that such a setup is not my preference. There are much better designs that negate hot air and contaminants. I just disagree with the old logic and debate that all intakes introduce foreign matter into the engine.
.

Why debate?

There is an ISO standard test to evaluate air filters. Of course none if the aftermarket companies every publish FULL results (if at all, they only publish the aspect that doesn't show their filters suck (pun intended)..>)

ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report

But I think we agree on the issues,,,

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[London Lad]

The vast majority of after market bolt on 'tuning' stuff doesn't do what the makers infer it does. Even when an item provides gains in one area they are normally at the expense of losses elsewhere.

[chilliwilli]

Originally Posted by ard

Why debate?

'Cause it's healthy...especially when $$ is involved and in particular when some cast a blanket statement that all aftermarket intakes are a scam.

Spicers study is great but it's almost 6 years old and shows only the filtering element itself...Which isn't bad, but not new either.

Show me a test that prove the Dinan intake and Lingenfelter intakes on my vehicles are a scam (especially when coupled with ECU upgrades) and i'll acquiesce and confirm we're completely on the same page

[ard]

Originally Posted by chilliwilli

'Cause it's healthy...especially when $$ is involved and in particular when some cast a blanket statement that all aftermarket intakes are a scam.

Spicers study is great but it's almost 6 years old and shows only the filtering element itself...Which isn't bad, but not new either.

Show me a test that prove the Dinan intake and Lingenfelter intakes on my vehicles are a scam (especially when coupled with ECU upgrades) and i'll acquiesce and confirm we're completely on the same page

I wanted to start a pool of people willing to pony up $$$ to run another ISO 5011 set of tests. It is a few hundred per filter... just not enough interest.

I'd agree that the properly engineered intake systems (ie the $2500 Dinan cold air intake for the E39M5 for example) do not result in lower power. Indeed the Dinan system adds 5, 6HP I believe (just by memory).

I wonder where their elements fall on the ISO tests.... and I guess I agree that $400 per HP gained is not a 'scam' since you know what you get.



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[chilliwilli]

Originally Posted by ard

.... and I guess I agree that $400 per HP gained is not a 'scam' since you know what you get.



A

Again...coupled with exhaust, engine/trany programs, it's a exactly what i expected...gotta pay to play, right?

Consider me signed up for a modern test of some of the top dollar/performance mods and i'm game.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by chilliwilli

Consider me signed up for a modern test of some of the top dollar/performance mods and i'm game.

The assumption must be, then, that at least one of these low cost/high benefit performance mods must actually help, right? If it is worth testing them, then presumably there must be a pot of gold worth chasing after?

The cheapest mod that many owners do is to change air filters, so let's consider them for a moment. Ard has expressed interest in running the ISO 5011 test. The first question would be whether an owner wants more filtration (implying more restriction) or less filtration (with less restriction), but let's focus on performance (hp) gains, and let engine wear go unchecked for purposes of this example.

One of the tests I found interesting some years back was on BITOG, and documented air filter tests on a stock Mazda Miata. The tester used a logical approach IMO, and came up with some interesting numbers. His tests are worth reviewing, IMO.

Firstly, total air filter restriction was 0.07 psi, for the worst filter in the test. He tested with and without filters, using a water tube manometer, to determine that. So, if you really need 0.07 psi less restriction, just take the filter out. Problem solved, and it is very cheap. Note however that this measurement of restriction was at wide open throttle, at 6500 rpm, going up a mountain pass, in second gear. At lower throttle settings, at lower rpm, it would be far less, some would say not even measurable. Let's assume we don't want to take the filter out, and that we install a hypothetical new "low restriction/high performance" filter that is 30% better than the stock one, just to make it worthwhile, and that we regularly drive around at 6000 rpm with wide open throttle (when you actually need and can benefit from more air flow). That would imply a reduction of 0.02 psi in this test. Atmospheric pressure is around 14 psi. Consider the significance of that 0.02 psi gain now: 14 pounds per square inch are pushing intake air into the engine before we start. With our high performance filter, it is up to 14.02 psi. Woot woot! (as my daughter would say). Bottom line, I don't see why any low restriction filter makes a whit of difference in the real world. Now, can these results be extrapolated to our vehicles? I suggest they can. I would even go so far as to suggest that BMW, with all their engineering focus, spends a little more time optimizing air filter performance than Mazda does, so the potential gains are likely less for BMWs than for the Miata.

The related data from this test can also be used to consider the benefits of a low restriction air intake system (although to be fair, the heat soak will be orders of magnitude more detrimental than any gain from low restrictions).

The link from Bob is the Oil Guy is attached for those who would like to see the numbers.

Air Filtration Test