Help me decide on a new purchase..3.0 or diesel?

[JCL]

Diesels make more mechanical noise (not music, noise) but to some fans it is music. Others call it noise. There is no correct answer to this one.

Diesels are less refined, they are a little coarser with respect to vibration, but some owners like that. They identify with Kenworth drivers. Some owners secretly wish they could have a Mack truck bulldog hood ornament.

Diesels use smelly fuel. This only matters when you fill it up, but it really matters when you spill some on yourself. You may find yourself carrying a pair of gloves for refueling.

BMW dealer technicians in North America don't know much about diesels (but they are learning more every day)

Diesels have more torque, but fewer revs.

Diesels get better mileage.

Purchase price is about a wash. There are credits to offset the higher price, and diesel fuel may be cheaper or more expensive where you live, which either makes it a better deal, or negates any fuel economy advantage. The futurists predict that diesel fuel will rise in price faster than gasoline, due to refinery capacity and higher energy content, but that is more of a guess than science. Time will tell.

It comes down to driving it, and seeing if it is for you. For all the negatives, some people love them, and that is cool. I love diesels, just not mixed together with my BMWs, which I buy in part for the refined engine note. If I was buying a one ton pickup truck, or a generator set, it would absolutely be a diesel.

[CarsRmyVICE]

Originally Posted by JCL

Diesels make more mechanical noise (not music, noise) but to some fans it is music. Others call it noise. There is no correct answer to this one.

Diesels are less refined, they are a little coarser with respect to vibration, but some owners like that. They identify with Kenworth drivers. Some owners secretly wish they could have a Mack truck bulldog hood ornament.

Diesels use smelly fuel. This only matters when you fill it up, but it really matters when you spill some on yourself. You may find yourself carrying a pair of gloves for refueling.

BMW dealer technicians in North America don't know much about diesels (but they are learning more every day)

Diesels have more torque, but fewer revs.

Diesels get better mileage.

Purchase price is about a wash. There are credits to offset the higher price, and diesel fuel may be cheaper or more expensive where you live, which either makes it a better deal, or negates any fuel economy advantage. The futurists predict that diesel fuel will rise in price faster than gasoline, due to refinery capacity and higher energy content, but that is more of a guess than science. Time will tell.

It comes down to driving it, and seeing if it is for you. For all the negatives, some people love them, and that is cool. I love diesels, just not mixed together with my BMWs, which I buy in part for the refined engine note. If I was buying a one ton pickup truck, or a generator set, it would absolutely be a diesel.

Could not agree more. Another sounds write up from jcl.

[santo]

I rarely disagree with JCL but some of these comments are generalities.

Originally Posted by JCL

Diesels make more mechanical noise (not music, noise) but to some fans it is music. Others call it noise. There is no correct answer to this one.

In a X5d, you hear some clatter at idle and I have read that BMW actually engineered a little extra engine noise; more so than the other manufacturers. With enough sound insulation (which the X5 has plenty of), you could virtually completely mask the sound. Standing outside of it while it idles or as a driver at idle and getting up to speed you can hear some noise that doesn't exactly sound like a gas engine but it doesn't really sound like clatter either; you have to experience it. You can't hear the diesel at all at any cruising speed. Through a whole passenger experience, I have to answer the same question. "Are you sure this is a diesel?".

Originally Posted by JCL

Diesels are less refined, they are a little coarser with respect to vibration, but some owners like that. They identify with Kenworth drivers. Some owners secretly wish they could have a Mack truck bulldog hood ornament.

Extra vibration doesn't exist in an X5d because it's a diesel. It is as smooth as a gasoline car.

Originally Posted by JCL

Diesels use smelly fuel. This only matters when you fill it up, but it really matters when you spill some on yourself. You may find yourself carrying a pair of gloves for refueling.

Maybe it's just me but I like the smell of diesel better. It's not as pungent and concentrated as gasoline and while I was refilling for the first time, I has to lean over and smell the filler neck just to experience what it smelled like. If you read the forums, you hear a lot about unkempt pumps and pump handles that are covered in diesel. This really isn't the case at regular gas stations. I've gone to a truck stop once and it was a little more unkempt but it still wasn't bad. In this neck of the woods, I just asked for the "car pump" because the truck pumps have larger nozzles. "Spilling some on yourself" may occur if you try to use a truck nozzle in a car like the 35d because it doesn't fit right and if you use the little "nozzle converter" that comes with the car, the pump doesn't shut off automatically. Hence, you're more likely to spill some on yourself. This doesn't happen with car pumps. Car pumps work just like gasoline pumps.

Originally Posted by JCL

BMW dealer technicians in North America don't know much about diesels (but they are learning more every day)

Haven't had service done yet as I'm just over a month but it could be true. Since I read somewhere that diesel X5s are outselling its gasoline counterpart, if this hasn't changed already, it will quickly.

Originally Posted by JCL

Diesels have more torque, but fewer revs.

The low revs were a bit of a surprise. The first week, I was trying to drive very lightly to not hit over 3,000 rpms for break-in and quickly figured out that you won't hit above 3,000 rpms by just driving normally (normal meaning you don't gun it from light to light).

Originally Posted by JCL

Diesels get better mileage.

I am enjoying some excellent gas mileage from a 5,000 lb tank that puts almost all SUVs and many cars to shame. The new 35i is no slouch in this department either though. I haven't seen some real world gas mileage from a 35i but you can take a look at my Fuelly stats for a new 35ds fuel mileage.

BigX5er, maybe you can use Fuelly too so we have a couple of comparisons?

Hope this helps.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by santo

I rarely disagree with JCL but some of these comments are generalities.

In a X5d, you hear some clatter at idle and I have read that BMW actually engineered a little extra engine noise; more so than the other manufacturers. With enough sound insulation (which the X5 has plenty of), you could virtually completely mask the sound. Standing outside of it while it idles or as a driver at idle and getting up to speed you can hear some noise that doesn't exactly sound like a gas engine but it doesn't really sound like clatter either; you have to experience it. You can't hear the diesel at all at any cruising speed. Through a whole passenger experience, I have to answer the same question. "Are you sure this is a diesel?".

Extra vibration doesn't exist in an X5d because it's a diesel. It is as smooth as a gasoline car.

Maybe it's just me but I like the smell of diesel better. It's not as pungent and concentrated as gasoline and while I was refilling for the first time, I has to lean over and smell the filler neck just to experience what it smelled like. If you read the forums, you hear a lot about unkempt pumps and pump handles that are covered in diesel. This really isn't the case at regular gas stations. I've gone to a truck stop once and it was a little more unkempt but it still wasn't bad. In this neck of the woods, I just asked for the "car pump" because the truck pumps have larger nozzles. "Spilling some on yourself" may occur if you try to use a truck nozzle in a car like the 35d because it doesn't fit right and if you use the little "nozzle converter" that comes with the car, the pump doesn't shut off automatically. Hence, you're more likely to spill some on yourself. This doesn't happen with car pumps. Car pumps work just like gasoline pumps.

Haven't had service done yet as I'm just over a month but it could be true. Since I read somewhere that diesel X5s are outselling its gasoline counterpart, if this hasn't changed already, it will quickly.

The low revs were a bit of a surprise. The first week, I was trying to drive very lightly to not hit over 3,000 rpms for break-in and quickly figured out that you won't hit above 3,000 rpms by just driving normally (normal meaning you don't gun it from light to light).

I am enjoying some excellent gas mileage from a 5,000 lb tank that puts almost all SUVs and many cars to shame. The new 35i is no slouch in this department either though. I haven't seen some real world gas mileage from a 35i but you can take a look at my Fuelly stats for a new 35ds fuel mileage.

Yes, I agree that they are generalities, but the question was very general.

I would be very surprised if BMW added clatter to an engine that already had more than their other engines. Sounds like a sales rep talking, to me.

I agree that the smoothness is good for a diesel. It just isn't good when compared directly to any BMW gasoline engine built in the past 40 years. Any discussion of modern diesel smoothness always seems to include the phrase "...for a diesel". That is my point, that it is good compared to other diesels, but the question was, how is it compared to a gasoline BMW engine. I maintain that it is noisier, additional sound insulation notwithstanding. As I said, some people like the noise.

The additional vibration I am referring to is engine vibation, not vehicle vibration. You can't get over the fact that there are much higher peak cylinder pressures. They cause additional engine vibration. You can isolate it with special engine mounts, etc, but the engine vibration compared to a similar gasoline engine is a design fact as long as you are going to use the compression ignition cycle.

Dip your hands in two fuel samples, one gasoline and one diesel. The diesel one is oilier, has more fumes, and stays on your hands longer. That is why people discuss using gloves to refuel. I don't remember a discussion about gloves for gasoline pumps. I worked (many years ago) for a fuel distributor, gasoline/diesel/heating oil/stove oil. I grew to tolerate the diesel, but I never got to the point where I enjoyed smelling it.

BMW has a big challenge training all their dealer technicians, or at least a subset of them. Most automotive mechanics haven't worked on diesels before, and in some locations (like where I live) there are different mechanic's tickets for diesels vs gasoline vehicles. You can't fault the mechanics, but many are going to have to learn a new skill set. If diesels continue to be adopted, then years from now this won't be an issue. It will continue to be an issue for some years, though. It isn't just the technicians, it is the parts people, service advisors, and so on. It is a natural function of introducing a new product line to what is a pretty traditional work force.

Interesting discussion. I am not anti-diesel. I am glad you enjoy your new vehicle. I tried to provide some balance. I made my living from diesel powered vehicles for many years (heavy equipment, gensets, trucks, marine power) I have owned two diesel passenger vehicles (both in Europe, a VW and a Landrover). I have driven many diesel passenger vehicles, but have very limited experience with the 35d, hence the general nature of my responses. I think there is a place for diesel vehicles. I just don't think that we should change all passenger vehicles over to diesel, they are simply better in some applications than others.

I just came back from a road trip two days ago (1500 km) and I am heading out again tomorrow on the same route. Best tank was 8.0 litres/100 km on premium gasoline, equating to 35.5 mpg (29.6 mpg US). Around town we are getting 11 litres/100 km, equating to 25.8 mpg (21.5 mpg US). We got around that same mid twenties consumption towing a trailer with 2000 lbs load through the rockies. All on an X3 3.0si, 265 hp, 6 speed manual transmission. So I am getting pretty much what any 35d driver is getting, but I am limited to towing 3500 lbs. I am not in any way suggesting that everyone should buy an X3, but it works for us. I may take the 535 tomorrow, as it does about 10% better than the X3 due to the direct injection and better aerodynamics. Just imagine the new X3 with the 20d or 23d, now that would be an interesting vehicle.

It would be boring if we all wanted the same vehicle. But at the same time, when comparing two different models, I think it is worth pointing out to the original poster that there are differences. When he does his analysis, he can decide which factors to weigh more heavily.