35d EGR valve?

[killcrap]

Originally Posted by boyce89976

All of my EGR faults specifically said " will not cause warning lamp".

Increased Emissions Warning and Check Engine Lamp are considered 2 things on a BMW.

A fault desription that shows the conditions of setting the fault will show how the Driver will be informed of the problem, either Check Control, or in conjunction with the CEL.

These so called fault descriptions are not always 100% true.

Ard, are you some kind of BMW technican? Ive seen many cars come in with CEL illuminated with no faults stored, EGS/SMG, and DME/DDE. Are you saying there could never be a problem with the instrument cluster, K-CAN/D-CAN network, or even a software error in the control units that illuminate the CEL without faults set?

Additionally not all faults are showed via "BMW Diagnostics" The majority of erronous faults are "masked" and hidden away from diagnosis to prevent mis-diagnosis. Some are shown in shadow memory, some are only available to engineers when sending FASTA data. Sometimes the car is too new to diagnose and we must wait for the lastest Diagnosis software.

So Ard, you do a disservice telling people "A CEL is set by a code, period. You cannot have a CEL come on without AT LEAST ONE underlying code."

[ard]

Originally Posted by cetane

Sorry I didn't have all the details when I started this thread. Here is what is causing the CEL:

4C52: Charge-air temperature sensor, plausibility. Ratio of calculated to measured air mass too high.
3FF0: Air-mass flow sensor. Charge-air temperature not plausible in rel. to remaining temperature signals.
4B82: Exhaust-gas recirculation-rate control, control deviation. Exhaust-gas recirculation rate too low/positive control deviation.


Dealer wants to replace the temp sensor and the EGR valve. However the EGR valve is not in stock and they have to ship it in from Germany. Also they said the MAF sensor might be bad. I'm not sure how two or three things could possibly go bad at the same time.

Perfect.


Did you search for those specific codes?

I had 4B52...search each of these codes, here and on bimmerfest. You'll get some background.

I agree with your assessment that it is unlikely for three things to fail simultaneously.... furthermore, the diesel emissions control seems to be plagued by software errors in which temperature errors in sensors- which are NOT identified as an actual fault- trip plausibility errors and other downstream errors.

As the dealer if they have created a PUMA case for this...you want engineers who understand the SYSTEM, as opposed to 'parts replacers' who see "EGR" in the code and figure 'bad EGR'. Could be, but you want experts making the calls.

For a while, any diesel emissions fault was a mandatory PUMA.... dealers were just guessing, resulting in multiple visits and lemon claims. BMW required dealers to work with their engineers to get it right.

If the dealer won't PUMA it, call BMWNA and ask them.

I am betting replace the temp sensor and reprogram....

A

[cetane]

Originally Posted by ard

Perfect.


Did you search for those specific codes?

I had 4B52...search each of these codes, here and on bimmerfest. You'll get some background.

I agree with your assessment that it is unlikely for three things to fail simultaneously.... furthermore, the diesel emissions control seems to be plagued by software errors in which temperature errors in sensors- which are NOT identified as an actual fault- trip plausibility errors and other downstream errors.

As the dealer if they have created a PUMA case for this...you want engineers who understand the SYSTEM, as opposed to 'parts replacers' who see "EGR" in the code and figure 'bad EGR'. Could be, but you want experts making the calls.

For a while, any diesel emissions fault was a mandatory PUMA.... dealers were just guessing, resulting in multiple visits and lemon claims. BMW required dealers to work with their engineers to get it right.

If the dealer won't PUMA it, call BMWNA and ask them.

I am betting replace the temp sensor and reprogram....

A

The temp sensor replace and reprogram was already done several months ago (recall). They said they will replace the temp sensor again.

[ard]

Originally Posted by killcrap

Increased Emissions Warning and Check Engine Lamp are considered 2 things on a BMW.

A fault desription that shows the conditions of setting the fault will show how the Driver will be informed of the problem, either Check Control, or in conjunction with the CEL.

These so called fault descriptions are not always 100% true.

Ard, are you some kind of BMW technican? Ive seen many cars come in with CEL illuminated with no faults stored, EGS/SMG, and DME/DDE. Are you saying there could never be a problem with the instrument cluster, K-CAN/D-CAN network, or even a software error in the control units that illuminate the CEL without faults set?

Additionally not all faults are showed via "BMW Diagnostics" The majority of erronous faults are "masked" and hidden away from diagnosis to prevent mis-diagnosis. Some are shown in shadow memory, some are only available to engineers when sending FASTA data. Sometimes the car is too new to diagnose and we must wait for the lastest Diagnosis software.

So Ard, you do a disservice telling people "A CEL is set by a code, period. You cannot have a CEL come on without AT LEAST ONE underlying code."

1. You know I am not. You have an issue with my style, and take specific pleasure in setting me straight. Knock yourself out. But don't misguide readers just to 'win'. I always acknowledge your expertise in things BMW.

So,
2. You say an emissions warning and a CEL are "two things on a BMW". Cool. How do you know when you get an emissions warning? Second question: where can I find the list of things that turn on the cel that are not emissions warnings?


3. While it is true that the code descriptors are not 100% true, the question is 'is there a code'. Your comments about descriptors are spurious.

4. Under what situations will you get a CEL without a stored error? Your post seems to indicate it would be in the event of a faulty cluster, a 'software error' or a 'K or D CAN' bus errors.

WHAT OTHER FAULTS WILL LEAD TO A CEL AND NO CODE? (This is the car's OBDC and not the dealer diagnostic computer.)


5. Lets leave out BMW diagnostic software- you have it, nobody outside the dealer has it. I am aware they sometimes have no diagnostic routines for 'newer cars'...but this is again not the point: aren't we discussing the COMPUTER IN THE CAR, (which sets the code) and not the BMW diagnostics running at the dealership?

Parsing your post, it seems they only case you are 'calling me out on' is when there is a instrument cluster fault or k-can d-can error. How prevalent is this? In 2010/11 X5 diesels.... Are you saying this was the issue with Boyce's car? (He had a CEL but all the dealer diagnostics said 'will not set code'...) What is your opinion on why his CEL was set yet no issues found?

Or maybe I am reading your post wrong and you are blaming BMW dealership diagnostics and saying that there may be codes, they may set the CEL, they may be readable by a OBD reader, but BMW doesn't show the technician so as not to confuse them (or because BMW hasn't yet figured out how to fix them)....

A

PS. Hey, why not help the OP and answer his question in addition to teeing off on my comments?

[killcrap]

Originally Posted by ard

1. You know I am not. You have an issue with my style, and take specific pleasure in setting me straight. Knock yourself out. But don't misguide readers just to 'win'. I always acknowledge your expertise in things BMW.

You assume I know you’re not a tech. How would I know this? You do a lot of assuming, and alot of providing incorrect information. You claim that "any diesel emissions fault was a mandatory PUMA." This information you are spewing out is totally false. In no such time was there ever a mandatory PuMA required to replace parts and diagnosis on a Diesel. Also you claim engineers are on the opposite side doing PuMA cases. This is also not always true. Nobody knows the systems 100%. If anyone did, there would be no Lemon Law cars out there. I'm not misguiding anyone, you are the one providing incorrect information. I’m sharing my expertise here, not non-sense.

Originally Posted by ard

So,
2. You say an emissions warning and a CEL are "two things on a BMW". Cool. How do you know when you get an emissions warning? Second question: where can I find the list of things that turn on the cel that are not emissions warnings?

You will get a message on the instrument cluster and on the control display. Displaying Increase Emissions or Engine Malfunction Power Reduction. Any malfunction that increases the exhaust emission by 50%. Required by OBD2 standards. No list is ever necessary, as they are not 100% accurate. Example, CEL is on, only fault stored is 4D16 SCR reduction plausibilty. Fault description shows will not cause warning lamp to come on. In the backpage in which it shows conditions to store this fault memory, right below it shows some text about how inform the driver. It shows. Check Control Message, Increased Emissions. Check Engine Lamp.

Originally Posted by ard

3. While it is true that the code descriptors are not 100% true, the question is 'is there a code'. Your comments about descriptors are spurious.

The Fault Descriptions are what the other poster was talking about, how it says "will not cause warning lamp to come on" Seems relevant to the topic to me. And how exactly do you know they are not 100% true if you are not affiliated with BMW, be it Engineer or Technician.

Originally Posted by ard

4. Under what situations will you get a CEL without a stored error? Your post seems to indicate it would be in the event of a faulty cluster, a 'software error' or a 'K or D CAN' bus errors.
WHAT OTHER FAULTS WILL LEAD TO A CEL AND NO CODE? (This is the car's OBDC and not the dealer diagnostic computer.)

I’ve given you the situations in which the CEL will come on without faults stored. If you want to get technical, if the car ever stalls out the CEL comes on, only because it is required by OBD2 for the light to illuminate when the ignition is on.

Originally Posted by ard

5. Lets leave out BMW diagnostic software- you have it, nobody outside the dealer has it. I am aware they sometimes have no diagnostic routines for 'newer cars'...but this is again not the point: aren't we discussing the COMPUTER IN THE CAR, (which sets the code) and not the BMW diagnostics running at the dealership?

Never did I mention any thing about diagnostic routines. When I say the software is not available, or the car is too new. In those scenarios we end up with our computer in which it cannot check the faults, because the faults are hidden from the display. We submit a PuMA case and retrieve the faults which are transferred to Germany. If no faults are stored then we have either an issue with software/hardware in the DME/DDE or the Instrument Cluster. Or the instrument cluster is too slow to respond to the CEL off request.

BMW diagnosis software is widely available to everyone. It is federally required by the EPA to be available. Saying nobody has it, it a strong false statement. What exactly is your concern with the cars OBDC? "Pulling codes" and "running bmw diagnosis"? They are the same. If you use a generic OBD2 reader, that’s totally different. The OBD2 scanner cannot read all the status that the DDE can show. The diagnosis test plan will be called up if available to activate and display components and show the technician plausible values to compare to. I mean why would you pull the codes without performing the test plan? The only case you would is if you’ve seen that fault previously and know what it is check right away and to fix it and to check it after the repair is made. Another instant would be if the test plan is broken and needs to be updated.

Originally Posted by ard

Parsing your post, it seems they only case you are 'calling me out on' is when there is a instrument cluster fault or k-can d-can error. How prevalent is this? In 2010/11 X5 diesels.... Are you saying this was the issue with Boyce's car? (He had a CEL but all the dealer diagnostics said 'will not set code'...) What is your opinion on why his CEL was set yet no issues found?
Or maybe I am reading your post wrong and you are blaming BMW dealership diagnostics and saying that there may be codes, they may set the CEL, they may be readable by a OBD reader, but BMW doesn't show the technician so as not to confuse them (or because BMW hasn't yet figured out how to fix them)....
A

We don’t need to get into various reasons why the CEL comes on with no issues found. Because we need to get the vehicle information, stored faults read out before we can make a determination on other factors. We’ve only received 2nd hand information from the owner of the vehicle, not from the technician. I only mention issues with the cluster, kcan, dcan because it could be an issue, and because you stated false information about the conditions on which the CEL will come on. Which would end up misleading the owner in providing this information to the service center, which would make the owner look like an idiot.

Originally Posted by ard

PS. Hey, why not help the OP and answer his question in addition to teeing off on my comments?

I am helping the OP, by correcting you. The faults he has posted indicate a failure in the Charge Air Temp Sensor. I would never mention programming as you recommended because if the came into service it would be noted by the service advisor if there was an open recall to replace the sensor and program the vehicle. The issue with the High Pressure EGR valve is most likely carbon build up. The test plan will move the valve and compare the reading to known good values. The correct way to find out is to remove the throttle body and check for carbon build up around the valve. The replacement valve is an inverse design depending on vehicle production date and will require the DDE software to become retrofitted with the inverse operating strategy. Without programming the DDE, the vehicle will run very poorly and set the check engine lamp with 3 EGR plausibility faults.

[diesaroo]

partially true regarding the bmw diagnostic software being available. you cannot get all the info with an aftermarket dianostic system even with manufacturer specific software. the dealer will always have the latest programming and updates vs aftermarket, and will be able to access more systems and have a lot more reprogramming and command functions. I for one would love more dealer tech interaction on this forum. To have at least 3 techs here is great, but disappointing if they don't interact.

[David Mc]

Are you experiencing driveability problems or just chasing the cause of a CEL? I would be looking at the air filter first - make sure that it has been properly installed and that the intake hose connection is properly seated and the sensor connection is okay. Since the faults are currently not present, I would not be replacing anything until I had verified that the codes had not resulted from a poor air cleaner replacement job that has since settled.

[cetane]

They replaced the air temp sensor but when I picked the car up it was showing code P0405 which my code scanner says is "EGR Sensor A Circuit Low". This is different from the EGR-related code it was showing before which was P0401 "Insufficient EGR flow". Maybe they are trying to make me pay for the EGR repair by unplugging something? They already ordered the part from Germany and charged me a $250 part deposit. I honestly don't know how else I could have one EGR code before I brought the car in and a different EGR code when I picked it up, when all they did was replace the charge air temp sensor. Anyway, I cleared the code and drove the car 50 miles so far and no CEL yet. If it doesn't come back on soon, I will have reason to suspect something strange is going on.

[boyce89976]

Originally Posted by cetane

They replaced the air temp sensor but when I picked the car up it was showing code P0405 which my code scanner says is "EGR Sensor A Circuit Low". This is different from the EGR-related code it was showing before which was P0401. Maybe they are trying to make me pay for the EGR repair by unplugging something? They already ordered the part from Germany and charged me a $250 part deposit. I honestly don't know how else I could have one EGR code before I brought the car in and another EGR code when I picked it up.

Is your 35d not under warranty? If it is, why are you paying anything?

[cetane]

Originally Posted by boyce89976

Is your 35d not under warranty? If it is, why are you paying anything?

Nope, the warranty ran out a couple of months ago. They replaced the air temp sensor for free because it was still covered under a separate part warranty, having already been replaced once before last year. But they still charged me a $120 diagnostic fee.