I can't name a dog until I see him.

DriverX5,

I know what you're looking for... good luck in your quest. Those dogs can be great. I was speaking in response to ZsX who suggested you get a bull terrier.

It's funny how the Bull Terrier group always cries, "it's not a Pit Bull, it's a Bull Terrier. I'm sick of the bad PR, etc. etc."
A) So, you're saying that APBT (Pit Bull Terriers) should be feared but your dogs should not.
B) Your right, your dog is not called a "PIT BULL".. But that does not negate the fact that the Bull Terrier was developed for PIT FIGHTING and other BLOOD sports like Bull and Bear hunting and killing. Hence the name "BULL".
-- I know a Bull Terrier is not the same thing as an Amer Staf, or APBT, but those are just names of the breed. They are still, PIT FIGHTING DOGS, regardless if the name PIT is attached to the breed name or not.

A PIT FIGHTING, BLOOD SPORT, dog is still that, regardless if the name "PIT" exists in the title or not. Just like a Standard Poodle is a WATER DOG, even though it's name is not, Standard Poodle Water Dog.

In response to Real Chef:
Oh brother:

Just cause you have a mixed breed dog that is well behaved does not mean the majority of owners who have them, have or own them responsibly.

We all know that Labs and Chi's and Poodles and every other breed, can and sometimes do bite or on rare occasion, kill. But again, Bull Terriers, APBT, etc. were dogs that were designed for their ability to kill, especially to kill other dogs or big mammals.

As far as nature outweighing nurture, I'm sure that every parent that has a child killed by a Bull breed thought the same thing. What's that quote I always read in the paper, "Family pet" "insert bull breed here" mauls child"..
"Our dog never showed any sign of aggression."

Any dog can bite or suddenly show aggression, but the damage that a Bull terrier is capable of inflicting because of what they were bred for is much more severe. BLOOD SPORT DOGS.. BLOOD SPORT DOGS.. BLOOD SPORT DOGS.. BLOOD SPORT DOGS.. BLOOD SPORT DOGS..

And all the breeding and kisses in the world ain't going to diminish the breeds ability to fight, mame and kill. It's in it's DNA. Just like it's in the DNA of a dog that points, to be a pointer.

So even if it's desire to hunt, kill and mame, has been REPRESSED, it still exists. And all those experts who argue that it's nurture are the same people who argue, the chicken came before the egg. There is no indisputable evidence that supports this claim. Quite the contrary. i can find many instances where a great family pet has snapped and killed.

You say you were bit by a Chi in the ankle. What if that attack came from a Bull Terrier? What damage would have been done as compared to that of a Chi? Would you rather be attacked by a Lab or a Bull Terrier? I'd take the Lab. I could kick the shit out of a lab, no problem... A Bull Terrier, I'm not so sure, it would probably maul me to death. Again, they were bred for their ability to fight, kill and because of it's muscle density and strength.

You ask me to open my eyes to the reality. The reality is, I've met some great Bull breeds. But I won't let them play with my dogs, I don't trust them and I have personally seen Bull dogs kill. An imagine I wish I could get out of my mind. (just last week an autistic woman with 4 Pit Bulls showed up at the local dog park. One of her dogs killed a 14 year old Daschund.) I also saw a Bull breed kill a mutt in Washington Square Park NY. And another Bull had to be put down 4 months ago because it attacked a puppy in another LA dog run. I missed this attack by minutes but saw the blood everywhere.

You ask me to open my eyes. Everywhere I look I see unqualified, untrained, people who own these dogs and don't understand, they don't belong in multi dog environments, they don't belong off leash. Their potential to kill is too great.

There is a reason why other breed owners like myself support BREED SPECIFIC LEGISLATION, it's not because of the rumors, it's because of what we know and have seen with our own eyes.

P.S. - because I often get caught up in the BULL BREED argument, I saved this post from another website..

Here is my point, EVEN OTHER PIT BULL OWNERS DON'T AGREE WITH YOU:

here is a conversation I find quite interesting as it gives both sides of Pit Bull owners.. So if Pit Bull owners can't agree on the dogs behavior and breeding, why should you expect anyone else to agree with you:

I was informed of a Pit Bull forum that has some definitive problems.
I joined this forum to see for myself.
What I have found, in my opinion, is sickening.
Below I will list some of the comments that have been made to others on thread titled:
"Would you report illegal dogfighting?" - I think you should know that even though the poll says the results are "yes" the people who actually spoke their mind on the board, well most of them have said "no"

I'll keep the usernames anonymous for now.

Let the comments begin *Note none of the following comments were made towards me. My convo's don't come until the end*:

Anonymous 1: Have you read the history of the APBT? Matching is what made this breed what it is. You don't have to LIKE it, you if you don't ACCEPT it, maybe this isn't the right breed for you.
You should also try to learn the difference between fighting dogs and matching dogs. There is plenty of info on both if you're willing to take the time to learn.

Anonymous 2: What most fail to realize, in a proper and real "fight/match", there is no need to save the dog. The dog is happy, excited and loves what they are doing in the pit. The whole saving aspect comes from today's society and their need to humanize the situation and play hero.

Anonymous 3: I don't think game testing or matching a dog should be illegal anyways. For that matter I don't think most recreational drugs should be illegal either. I'm not a fan of helmets or seat belts. Gambling and prostitution should also be legalized. I think that all Americans who do not have a history of violence or mental illness should be able to walk around armed at all times to not only protect themselves from theft and harm, but to also protect the good Ole USA from threats both foreign and domestic. I think people should be the masters of their own destiny and other peoples morals should not be imposed.

Anonymous 4: If you take the dog aggression out of a pit bull, or attempt to anyway, you open it up to a slew of other issues including human aggression. I'm sorry, but I'd rather keep this breed true-to-standard and not screw it up. The hard work the forefathers of the breed took to make this breed as human-friendly and stable as they did. In all seriousness, folks. LEARN your dogs' roots. Learn your breed. This is not a breed for everyone and many people on here clearly didn't do their research and would prefer to have a Golden Retriever in a pit bull suit. I, on the other hand, would prefer a PIT bull.
This is in response to someone saying you can train the dog aggression out of a dog:
Oh, totally! Because it's ALL in how ya raise 'em.
*that was sarcastic if you didn't get that....*
And now back to another comment she made...
I'd like you to come to an ADBA show and tell someone with a very hot pit bull that they can work their dog using treats and "watch me" to get them to focus. They'd probably laugh. I'll be honest. I have a VERY hot pit bull. His name is Ryker. He hates many...many dogs. While food is an excellent motivator in low-stressor situations, the possibility of taking a chunk out of another dog is far more appealing.
This is in response to someone saying that thier Pit was 2 years old and hasn't shown any dog aggression...that maybe he will one day, but so far nothing and they'd like to keep it that way:
This comes from breed experience and breed knowledge and the reality of owning a breed that things Fido down the street would make a lovely snack. Your pit bull is a juvenile and hasn't reached full maturity.

Anonymous 5: Dog fighting is cruel and inhumane....(this was an opinion from another person on the thread)
This was his response: Well this is an opinion and not a fact. In your opinion it is cruel and inhumane... In my opinion it can be done in a way that makes it no different than humans engaging in a mixed martial art contest (UFC)...

Anonymous 6: this is in response to someone asking how everyone seems to just KNOW that a pit WANTS to fight - that it is in their genes to just want to fight:
Its in their genes. It makes them WANT to do it. Just like its in your genes to want to have sex. You WANT to do it.
Regardless you cant just train it out of them. They want to attack other dogs, they have a prey drive. Right? They are more than likely DA. Its something every APBT owner knows and understands.

Anonymous 7: Dogfighting is illegal for a couple of reasons.....
1. People whine too damned much and think of them as children
2. People do it for the WRONG reasons, the dogs are not treated and they are made to stick it out regardless....some people actually can make it inhumane, others know what they are doing.
If you want to argue the fact that there is no right way and it is ONLY WRONG, then you really need not own the breed, because after all, THIS IS what made them what they are today and if it does not continue "the right way" then the breed WILL CHANGE, how dramatically I have no idea, but it will change. Now, as far as people not wanting to fight their dogs, honey, most will not because they do not like it, the others will not because it is illegal, because others whined about it, and some people like me still would if it were legal....yes that is right.....If it were legal to fight THESE dogs, I sure as hell would....why? Because that my friend is what they were not only bred for, but it is what they love.

A little bit of convo:
ME: (in response to Anonymous 7's comments) - No, I disagree...the dog loves to please the owner..
The dog doesn't love to have it's face torn into...there is a difference.
Pits were originally bred to please their owners, to be loyal. If you have them in a pit and are cheering them on, of course they'll keep going. It isn't for the love of the blood - it's for the praise.
Anonymous 8: Lady, you dont know what your talking about. If you had any tangable experience with the gamedog you wouldn't be saying that! It's not my oppinion either it's fact! There are different versions, ppl perceptions of what the APBT should be. I have a hunch that say's you dont or have never owned a bona fide gamedog.
My response: Yes, actually I DO know what I am talking about.
But there is no way - not in THIS LIFETIME OF MINE - that I would ever need to have any experience with a gamedog.
Have you owned a "bona fide gamedog" - if so, what was the purpose of having it do what it did?

Me: (in response to Anonymous 5's comments)- All of this "lab in a pit suit" or "G.R. in a pit suit" is just absolutely stupid. Why would we WANT a dog to continue it's bad rep? To the people out there who are saying "if you want a sweet docile dog go get a lab not a pit" - what are you telling the rest of the public?? Pit's aren't all scary and tuff. Personally, I think the people saying this are the ones who shouldn't have the breed - you're doing nothing for it.
And to the people who are saying that GSD were not bred to be police dogs??? GSD's were developed in the 20th century for herding AND police/military work.
Here's a question to those of you who think that those of us who don't agree with dog fighting are just "whinny owners who think of our dogs are children" - What would be the purpose in legalizing dog fighting???
I can not BELIEVE that there are people on this forum who would fight their dogs if they could. How sick is that?
Anonymous 8: Dogfighting is a combative sport. Not all dogs are bred to be pets. The ppl that do breed to meet the standard of the breed, realy have no interest in your type of dog. It has no value or use other than it being a pet.
My response: And not all pits are bred to fight. That is wrong.
It's people like you that give the breed a bad name, saying that the only purpose for their existence is to be fought...
I know about it's historical purpose, and it wasn't initially to be fought. Maybe you are the one who should do some reading.

Anonymous 9: The bulldog was bred for other reasons (bullbaiting, farm work, guardian-type work). The terrier was bred for other reasons (ratting, vermin hunting/catching). The American Pit Bull Terrier was bred specifically to be the "perfect" pit dog....fighting dog. End of story. Everything in history, words and pictures both, explain it very simply and in detail.
The fact that you choose to ignore what is known and make up your own stories does worry me, especially if you are out trying to "educate" others on these dogs.
Though this pissed me off, I choose to just ignore that last sentence...and responded with: I've yet to see where it says that APBT were bred only for this purpose. In any breed profile I have read it has stated that in the 19th century the English crossed the bulldog with the terrier and then this dog was brought to the U.S. It was developed (I'll repeat myself as I have already said this in previous posts) as a guard dog, a cattle catcher, a livestock driver, and a COMPANION. Is is, however, most notorious for pit fighting. This breed was not first developed for this reason though.
*NOTE: Though it was later named for it*


So my point is REALCHEF,
Even people who own PitBulls, Bull Breeds, etc. don't agree with you.. Of course these are people who would like to see their dogs fight, but at least they have a realistic expectation of how to handle the breed. And if they own the dogs, breed the dogs, sell the dogs, don't for just a second you think, it would be a good idea to listen to what THEY have to say about the breed AND NATURE vs. NURTURE...

Again, from their lips, to your ears !

Firstly, what I said was "my advice is get a performance bulldog or a bull terrior/boston terrier if you are a responsible owner." because I love them and they aren't riddled with health problems like the deformed & spoiled pet & toy breeds of today.

Second, a bull terrior can reference a variety of breeds. There is the Bull Terrior (or English Bull Terrior), Staffordshire Bull Terrior, Amercian Staffordshire Terrior, and American Pit Bull Terrior, to name a few.

3rd I did not say anyone should fear APBT's. My Dog is indeed called a pit bull, by many. We (UKC & ADBA purebred owners) often use the term. But should people fear my dog? Absolutely not. It was NOT bred for fighting, and I am a responsible dog owner. The problem with name association is that the term "Pit Bull" is thrown around to describe any half breed mutt who bites someone in the ghetto. Let's face it, it makes for a better news story rather than "strange looking mutt with a big head attacks".

I would challenge anyone who has a problem with bull & terrier breeds to accomplish the titles I have with my dog. Even a temperament test. Do you have any idea what that title means? A temperament test is a series of tests in which you must pass without any negative marks. The tests include meeting a series of strangers; friendly, aggressive, and neutral. As well strangers popping umbrellas in your dogs face and a starter pistol fired within 10 feet of where he or she is. If your dog has any negative reactions you fail the test. There is no doubt a problem with pit bulls today but that problem lies with the owners. Buying any "pit bull" without having extensive knowledge of the breed characteristics and responsiblities would be like me ordering a pure bred alaskan sled dog and keeping him in Florida on a chain. Do you think that dog will be bored? Maybe he will bite someone out of frustration. The problem is with the owners.

You are right that many bull and terrior breeds descend from origins in blood sport, but to assume they're all bred for that today is rediculous. The lineage of my dog consists of over 3 decades of titled working dogs in many areas of public service and extensive health testing. This is a world that you are not familiar with. What you are familiar with is those that make the news. So the truth is you know as much about pure bred Bull and Terrior breeds as you do the portuguese water dog, or any other pure breed for that matter.

Ah you see ZsX, that is where you are wrong.

I don't know if you're being serious or not, but I do know a lot about the Portuguese Water Dog, at least I hope I do, I have two of them:
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...mpicgames7.jpg

What would you like to know about the PWD:
Standards? History? Origin? While I may not be an expert, I think I'm pretty qualified to discuss the PWD. After all, I have been involved with the breed for nearly 13 years..

I also don't assume that all Bull Terrier breeds are bred for blood sport, but they all descend from dogs that were, which goes back much further than 3 decades.

You also assume that I get my information from news reports that misidentify big headed dogs as Pit Bulls. Well I could understand how that assumption could fit your desire to label me as misinformed, but as you might have missed by not carefully reading my posts, I belong to other forums that discuss breeds, legislation, training, agility, etc.

I might not be a certified expert but anyone who has spent 10 seconds around me or my dogs will quickly tell you, I have a good, solid, foundation of dog knowledge, training, obedience, etc.

I don't title my dogs because I would rather spend the weekends by the pool with them. But just because I don't have a "water title" doesn't mean that my dogs can't retrieve and deliver, into my hands. I don't need a certificate to prove my abilities or the abilities of my dogs.

I'd say pictures speak a thousand words:
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...eadUnder41.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...ikitaSwim4.jpg

Furthermore, while I'm impressed that your dogs are tempearment tested, the majority are NOT. The majority of owners do not have stable dogs, know their breeders, get AKC titles, look at health or temperment tests. Bull breeds are bought and sold with little regard to any of the things you have mentioned besides those in the minority like yourself..

Bull breeds DO NOT BELONG in the hands of the average or even experinced dog owners. They belong in the hands of professionals only... At least that's what the Bull breed owners above say.... Their words, not mine..

p.s. - I wouldn't challenge me or my dogs to any test competitions... Until you've seen my dogs at work, you couldn't begin to understand how much you underestimated me/them....

Haha that was just the first breed to come to mind, what are the odds.
You seem to have shifted your position from bull breeds being bad, to owners being bad so I'm content with that.

Oh wow, :wow: That is funny.

Let me be clear though. I don't think Bull Breeds are "bad", but I do believe they are inherently dangerous and I think only 1% (made up number but you get my point) are actually qualified to handle the breed.

The breed is usually just doing what it is bred to do. I don't blame a lion for attacking a gazelle and I don't blame a Pit Fighting dog for attacking other dogs, (or humans)...

So while it is the owner, the responsibility will always come back to the breed, especially as they become more popular.

Here is a recent story of a young girl, her baby sitter and the neighbor, all getting attacked by a friendly, family pet, that almost killed the girl.
http://www.adn.com/anchorage/story/492069.html

Whose fault is it? The owners, they should never have had that dog, as most owners should not. I should not be seeing Pit Bulls in the park, everyday, by the average, "I want a dog" twenty something, or soccer mom. It is a speciality dog for speciality handlers....

These are specific dogs bred for specific reasons and should only be handled by specialized owners who understand the risk, potential, strengths and dangers of having a breed like this in the backyard.

Are you kidding me?:rolleyes:
A. This "forum" you joined, is admittedly and obvious to everyone except yourself, focused on dog fighting. Which pretty much negates all of your comments as nonsense. That's like talking to the 'mafia' about loan sharking.
B. Let me speak just from my knowledge and FIRST HAND experience and not what others tell me. I live daily in a city flushed with APBT. The fringes of our community are full of "fight Dogs". There has not been an APBT attack against a human for my entire experience here, 6 years.
C. I visit them at my friends' houses, at my house and daily off leash at the park and the ONLY first hand dog aggression I have seen MANY TIMES has always been from NON APBT. Each time, when speaking to the owner, it is very clear that this person is ignorant of proper raising and training. I have seen the three dogs killed by non APBT. It is the owners fault not the dogs, in those cases as well as the previous cited cases of the APBT. (see my last point)
D. I cannot think of one major Professional Canine Show or competiton that has banned the APBT and these are the people who know. These breeds outperform most breeds in MANY fields. They hold more Power Pulling national championships than any other breed and an equal many Agility championships as the other breeds. You are falling prey to sensationalist reporting feeding off some unfortunate families tragedy. Quite simply, more people are killed in Canada every year by moose than Grizzlies, but all you hear about are the Grizzlies.
E. The originators of the breed are well documanted as having ZERO tolerance for human aggression when the breed was created. Any human agg. was immediately culled. (as well as dog agg.) The sport, by the way, was where 2-3 dogs were put into a pit to fight a bull. They were good performers because of their reluctance to let go of the neck once they were able to bite it. (which would lead to bleeding or suffocation)
F. They are no more likely to attack a human as a Labrador. BTW: My Rottwieller once jumped through a screen door to prevent a Great Dane from killing me. Note: I have been attacked by a Chihuahua and a Great Dane, but I own a pit bull cross and live with APBTs every day. Are you getting the point yet. Yes, they are a strong breed, that does not make them killers.
G. My point, which you are apparently oblivious to as well, is:
Your Stereotypical and bigoted statements are no different than the stereotypes of the Irish being drunks, Mexican people are lazy etc... If you cannot see that, then I feel sorry for you and those around you.

What makes you think they should never have "had that dog". It was just a mutt. I think the problem here is the general classification of mutts as pit bulls. Saying that they're inherently dangerous is just false. We cannot generalize an entire breed as inherently dangerous. If we put enough PWD's in the hands of the youth we would surely see a general consensus leaning toward "something wrong with the dog". A main contributing factor to this of course is genetics. These dogs are so far from their well balanced ancestors that they are a different breed all together. Bred from hundreds of unkowns dogs whom had terrible characteristics and often for fighting or aggressive behavior.

I am for all working dogs, but they all need to have jobs. Sure there are enough pit/pit mixes out there that are very docile and don't need to be worked but generally all working dogs need jobs/outlets.

They're not "just doing what they're bred to do", they're with idiots who never gave them anything to do. Rottweilers were bred to herd cattle and sheep hundreds of years ago but you don't see them doing that very often. True and Pure American Pit Bull Terriers have gone through the harshest of culling throughout the centuries compared to any other breed. This culling I am referring to was based on agression toward humans. I believe it was culled out of the breed to the point where a purebred APBT is one of the worst guard dogs you can buy. This is again the distinction I am drawing between the breed, and the mutts. In 2 weeks (hopefully) my dog will have her TD (Therapy dog) title, meaning she can work with elderly & sick people at hospitals and rehabilitation centers. I can trace her lineage back to 19th century ireland, she is one of the purest APBT's in America today. Sacredly kept as pure as possible, and with responsible people. (to anyone breed-knowledgable reading this she is of Lar-San descent) What used to be referred to as a "Gentlemans Dog" is now the attraction of the youth of america.

If you really want to get a sense of the breed you should get out to some shows and see the things they are capable of. The only reason people in those circles hate us is because they can't beat us in any of the competitions ;)

glad we mention the same points, realchef =]