I think that very few of the economists are pointing to the real problem here which is a declining middle class. Wages have consistantly dropped compared to cost of living over the past 30 years. The way most middle class families have sustained a "middle class" lifestyle is to run up their debt. It is easy to say "live within your means", but that would mean an end to the middle class, as the majority of Americans would fall below what we consider "middle class" today.

All the other problems such as the housing crisis, banking crisis, credit crisis, etc....they are all a result of this issue. And thus, anything short of addressing this issue will be a temporary bandaid on the real problem.

People all scream about "income redistrubution" -- and that is why the politicians are affraid to really take on this issue. But you won't have any income to redistrubute if this problem is not addressed. We'll see what you think when the DOW is at 4000, or maybe 2000. Don't worry...it is coming...that much is for sure.

They should forget about raising the income tax rate, or other trivial stuff like that. They should eliminate all income and sales taxes, and impose a flat wealth tax -- everyone pays the same rate. Something similar to how you pay property tax on your home. Next, they should impose a 30 hour work week on all business, except those with fewer than 25 employees. A few changes like that will go a long way towards fixing the problems. Not this idiotic spending bill, that while helpful, will not fix any problems long term.

oh boy. Whatever happened to personal accountability? You failed to mention this. Living within your means would mean the end of the middle class? That really makes no sense to me at all. What about taking pride in what you have and being accountable for your own actions? Doesn't that mean anything to you? Running up debt to keep up with the Jones family is crazy. Blaming that on others is well, incredibly naive sounding. I'm not talking about banks doing the wrong thing as far as lending practices, just focusing my comments on personal accountabililty.

I added a few more things to my post after you posted this. "Personal accountability" is what politicians say when they want to ignore a problem and not do anything about it. If you take the "personal accountability" approach, you will see the DOW at 2000 quite soon. :thumbup:

I still want a definition of "middle-class"

Think about this, not even a 8th of the stim bill goes to small businesses.... :tsk:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/02/smal...ion=2009030311

I take it that you don't believe in personal accountability then.

Got it.

I just read your additions to the previous post. Flat tax on wealth, 30 hour work week - I'm convinced you are a socialist at heart but if you think that is going to fix the stock market I don't think undersand how business works. Your recommendation will essentially kill business - then what happens to the DOW?

But you probably already get this and are looking for another extended argument. Don't have time for it today. Good luck with that view.

The funny part is, to maintain a socialist agenda...you bank on it :)

Interesting point....I'm not even pretending to understand the far-ranging effects of these "stimulus infusions". But for any economics Majors here, I wanted them to clarify something.
We all know about Germany post-World War I printing money out the wazoo, and the resulting hyper-inflation. Makes sense, and it's been shown dozens of times in history. Print more money, the value of money goes down.

What I am trying to understand with both the Obama stimulus plan, as well as the preceding Bush TARP program: Are these HUNDREDS of BILLIONS truly coming from taxpayer revenue, or is the money simply being printed on an AS NEEDED basis by the Treasury, like Monopoly money??? Or is it a combination of both??

Anyone in the know care to take a stab?

It's all printed.

Our gov't pays a much different interest rate than anyone else. It's 0 on printing new currency.

You are spot on in terms of the danger of running a huge debt and printing money to pay for things. It devalues the dollar, puts tremendous pressure on trade and causes other bad things to occur.

This is why getting out of debt is such an important thing - bring in spending. Stop buying things and commit future spending we can't afford.

Maybe instead of $ we should print € ;) :rofl:

Actually, it's not zero. The government pays the prime rate to the Federal Reserve. Currently that is 0.25%, but used to be much higher.