Bikers/Range Rover Chase
 

If you haven't seen this yet--pretty messed up.

‘Road rage’ biker may be paralyzed | New York Post

I hate to sound heartless And cold but sometimes when you look for trouble it certainly does find you. These bikers and the way they recklessly ride and disregard all laws is commonplace here in New York. Many of the bikes had removed their license plates for this ride.

I would have done the same thing as the RR driver. He did stop, was surrounded by angry riders who slashed his tires and began hitting his car with helmets. His only logical thought is that he, and maybe his wife and child will be next.

I don't know much about the sport bike scene, but I am hoping that whoever is big in this scene, such as whoever is the equivalent to Rob Dyrdek of the skateboard scene, will step up and try to corral this crap. Put the word out that this type of stuff puts a horrible stain on their scene. It's a shame to say but each time I pass a street bike on the road I can't help but equate whoever his riding, to these thugs who pleat the range rover driver up.

I do know that several of the riders have been arrested and the range rover driver has not ( and IMO opinion ) and should not be charged.

The sportbike scene used to be a crowd of true riders who loved to lean and really tried to excel their skills of riding, ever since the "Ruff Ryders" scene got back in the mid 90's its been downhill from there, any wannabe gangster or thug with a couple grand in his pocket can buy a 10 year old 600 and do as many wheelies as they want and got 150 mph on the highway. Notice the whole crowd, terrible riding position, straight arming the bars, etc.

Groups like that are more for the look and the scene than the true passion of riding, sorry to be blunt and honest but that's how I feel. Any asshole can peg his right wrist and tuck in on the highway, probably wouldn't last one lap on the track.

I feel bad for the Range Rover guy that he got beat up but at the same token did he provoke in any way? I can't tell from the video. Only thing I can see in the video is it looks like the whole group surrounded the RR, then one of the guys cut in front of it. IF YOU DO SOMETHING STUPID LIKE THAT AND DON'T EXPECT YOUR BIKE TO GET HIT YOU ARE AN IDIOT. Gosh, and here I am thinking to myself "if someone bumped me on my bike with their car, I'd be thanking God himself that I didn't get tossed off, wrecked, or injured". A tap from a car is nothing, considering the alternative (smacked and dead)

I've been a rider for 5 years now and hope to be for my whole life, and to the poster above, yes someone in the "scene" (e.g. Jason Britton or some of the other ICON guys) need to make a statement and let people know that shit like this is not cool.

We'll said sir.

Please don't take any offense to my comments, as I can tell you are a responsible rider who has true passion for the craft. I know it is wrong to paint all riders with the same brush, and I feel for you that these thugs give riders like yourself a bad name.

And yes, Jason Britton would be a great spokesman to get a message out. And from what Ive heard, I don't know if the rover driver provoked anything, but the word here in NYC is that this bike crew were attempting to shut down the entire roadway. There were bikes that were actually even blocking off entrance ramps to prevent other traffic from entering the roadway. I think that these thugs were trying to get the Rover to slow down and exit the highway. If the driver did anything to provoke a group of over 100 riders, then that would be pretty ballsy. Doesn't sound like something a young, probably wealthy, techie, driving with his young family on a Sunday afternoon would do. But who knows? Regardless, the biker who cuts him off and then brake checks the range rover is inexcusable.

Those bikers are really lucky they didn't meet the barrel of a .45 caliber when they surrounded the RR and decided to become vigilantes while breaching windows to access the driver. That's exactly what they would have met if that happened to me. Plus the bullets into their skulls would have been more than justified under the law.

A crowd of thugs...they just happened to be 'riding scoots', of which I have experienced the quick to rise boil, and thug mentality. Not much different than a crowd of thugs on the street, walking.

The bikes simply give quick pursuit, chase and surround...

When the one idiot gets hit/run over, the rest of the crowd pursues and defends. Pack mentality; on foot or on sleds, imo.

None of us can know how it all went down or what the driver of the car felt in terms of fear and defending his Fam.

The cycle group was lucky that Dad or Mom were not packing.

The idea that some 'cycle hero' doing positive PSA commercials would have any effect on thugs like that is wildly optimistic at best, to dreaming, imo.

Riding for 50+ years, in several kinds of 'groups'; I have seen and smelled the fear when some in a group became aggressive and retaliatory. Zero justification for a gang/group assault. Hope the driver recovers.
GL, mD

an individual person is kind, caring and smart... when you get couple dozen of kind, caring and smart individuals, somehow you end up up with vicious, careless and stupid mob...
who knows what can pacify a crowd, a figure of authority or a bullet...

my grandmother (a christian) faced an angry mob (Muslims) who wanted to kill her because her last name was similar to a known writer who denounced that particular muslim population... The only thing that diverted the mob away from my grandmother, was a neighbor lady who swore on a Quran that my grandmother was a Jew... Of course, Quran is authority... would some guy be able to divert the bike mob? i have no idea...

since this entire matter is in the court of public opinion, i can only base my personal opinion on the video and the stereotypes...

and any of us can end up in a similar situation, that is scary... seems like the guy took his family for a Sunday drive, when the bikers decided to do a street racing, or some other un-sanctioned street activities, thus, started to block off the public roadways... the guy hits a biker who throws his bike on the car's bumper, the rest of the guys become agitated... the driver is scared, and at one moment he launches to get away from the imminent danger... as he is taking off, he runs over some stupid f*ck who gets in the front of a 2-ton (or is it 3-ton?) SUV. Now, the guy who is ran over, is separated from the vicious and stupid mob, and he becomes a caring and gentle guy again... and we hear that he did not deserve it, blah-blah-blah...

just think of it - did the father of the family leave the house in the morning so he could run over the biker? or, did the biker leave his house so he could engage in some questionable activities, like riding on illegally blocked off street?

I can't picture myself in the biker's shoes (not because i do not ride, but because i try to stay on the good side of the law) but i can easily picture myself behind the wheel of that SUV... And besides my training, that tells me to do exactly what the guy did (plus, lock the doors), i would have done the same even without the training...

:iagree: I've watched the video several times and it looks without a doubt that the biker cut in front of him and slammed on his brakes. I'm glad NY is prosecuting those involved and sending a clear message

try to mess with this one with a helmet!!!

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...8001342&type=3

As many others have, I also have viewed this horrifically captivating video filmed by one of the bikers of the events this past weekend on Riverside Drive on Manhattan's Upper West Side. While the video reveals much of what happened, we all here can only speculate as to the reasons for various actions, including:

1. What was the intent of all of these bikers? Apparently, with many of them having removed their license plates to prevent easy identification, they must have had some premeditated intent to do something unlawful, such as exceeding the posted speed limit. Possibly more than that....?

2. Why was the Range Rover the only vehicle in view, both immediately as well as for 1,000 ft ahead, other than the multiple motorcycles?

3. Why did the wife of the driver not call 911 from a cell phone from within their vehicle to notify police of the current harassment?

4. When observing the many motorcyclists appearing in his rear view mirror, why did the Driver of the Range Rover, Mr. Alexian Lien, not just pull over to the far left lane, slow down and let them all pass?

5. Why did he exit the highway? With 20/20 hindsight, he, his wife and child may have been safer continuing driving up the Henry Hudson Parkway. Once he and the cyclists reached the toll booth the attendants would see what was going on and called police.

We may never know the answer to these questions, but then again, if any of these bikers are arrested, charged with crimes and put on trial, maybe we will learn more.

The scary scenes in this video reminded me of the classic motorcycle vs. car scene in the Mad Max movie. As is now being discussed in some online blogs, maybe we will see some copy-cat responses to belligerent bikers disobeying traffic laws by motorists who are fed up with their crap. Who knows....? While I am certainly not advocating or promoting proactive violent actions, I would not be all that surprised if at some point in the not too distant future someone will take it upon themselves to be a vigilante and recreate Max and his Interceptor and start patrolling the roadways searching for these misfit cyclists and...

1. They apparently did a similiar rally downtown NYC last year which this year, from what I read, the police stopped. Also, reports are saying they were trying to block the off-ramps on this highway for something.
2. Again, reports are saying he was being bullied into trying to exit so they can have the road--which might be why the bikers were singling him out.
3. I'm sure she did. Other thing I thought was odd was there was not one cop along the way that saw this or someone else that might have called in.
4. Probably had so many around him so quick he was surrounded before he could do anything.

My $.02

I ride, and I agree with the RR driver. I can put myself into his shoes in an instant. My age is similar, so is my wife, and my oldest child. A dumb shit cuts me off in a pack, I have nowhere to go, he is getting hit. If I stop, there better not be anyone approaching my vehicle, or I will start running dumb asses over.

They are all lucky it wasn't me in that car. The first off ramp / on ramp I would see, would be my pinch point. I would have mangled a whole lot of that mob that day. No way would I stop for traffic. Put in reverse, depress go pedal to floor, stop, put in drive, depress go pedal. Repeat as necessary.

And If it was me in my F150, holy shit. Steel chrome bumpers, and 2' of body in front of engine. They would have to pull out those idiots with crowbars out of my grills and bed.

The first guy he ran over, is F****ed. He is in medical induced coma, broken spine and a whole lot of other shit. Too bad. Next time some dumbass tries to "stage" an accident against and SUV, maybe think twice.

A few of the bikers have been arrested too. And they are now looking for that dude that smashed in with his helmet.

Now thanks to these dumb shit clowns, us normal people, can't take out our bikes in this good weather we are experiencing. Why you say Slick, you weren't part of it. Yea, tell that to the cops who are pulling over every sports bike in the 5 boroughs, taking pictures of your shit, and interrogating you. I took my bike out yesterday, only to be pulled over 2 times 15 min after first stop. For nothing at all. I was let go both times, but each stop cost me, wait for it, 1 hour.

Oh and no one cares about why it started. You are a mob, attacking and making a car bend to your inappropriate rules. Count how many laws these guys broke before the shit hit the fan hard core. Improper use of space, removed and blocked plates, obstructing flow of traffic. Half of them most likely don't have licenses.

How would each of us respond?
 

Since we are expressing our thoughts on what each of us would do in that hypothetical situation if we were the driver of that Range Rover and our wife and child were in the vehicle, how would we react...?

I agree that I would certainly become defensive. But would I also become aggressive and consciously attack bikers who, while swarming around and along side you have not done anything else than that. I don't know...

I would like to think that I would not do something consciously stupid or life threatening, but we all have a "snapping" point and it may be at a different point for all of us.

I know that when I am in the supposedly "safe cocoon" of my enclosed vehicles, I feel more ready to verbally condemn other knuckle headed motorists for doing stupid and/or unsafe things with their vehicles. I admit to having "shot the bird" to other motorists who have cut me off or have engaged in stupid behavior.

So at what point would each of us transform our behavior from defensive to offensive...?
Would it be once one or more of the bikers physically attack my vehicle? If so, would it have to be more that denting body panels, such as breaking glass windows?
Most likely, it would be at the point where in our conscious thinking, we jump from fear as our motivator, (i.e. drive away at a fast rate to attempt to escape the danger), to violent physical rage, (turning my vehicle into a weapon and actually use it that way to consciously inflict physical harm on as many cyclists as I could....).

This frightening video really does raise many questions for each of us and makes me think, "what would I do....?"

Yea that is the thing, watching this video, and knowing the scene around here, I know from the get go, that I would not allow them swarm and follow me. You do not know if any of these guys are carrying guns or any other weapons, and I am willing to bet there were guns.

I would put them in a pinch point and smash up the front runners, at least to a point where it will be a challenge for them to follow me. And those that will be able to get through, will be much fewer in number. Speaking from experience, you lay out the front runners, the rest just punks in a mob, they will not attempt the same fate.

Bikers/Range Rover Chase
 

I think the rider that is paralyzed is NOT the one that brake checked the RR. The paralyzed one is someone who I believe got ran over when the RR fled. Even more horrible if you ask me, that the original rider caused all of this, and for arguments sake also caused this other guy to be paralyzed.

I think the original rider was in court yesterday and was released on $1500.00 bail.

There is also some dispute here in NYC between the police department and the district attorney office, who feel that the police department is making arrests too quickly.

Yup, the brake checking guy was in court.

I agree sux for the paralyzed guy. But don't forget, he chose to be in front of the RR, and was riding along side it. He is also not licensed. Not that I'm happy he is perma effked.. His life, if he lives will never be the same.

Apparently both parties underestimated each other, The RR driver didn't think it would be a problem for him to get in the mix of the riders, and probably figure "they'll move" and well... they didn't , this is what agitated them to begin with , they wanted to own the HWY.

The Rider(s) saw him as an easy target for abuse and figure "what is he gonna do?" calling police and filling a report was not an option, most where unlicensed, unregistered Bikes and Riders. so messing with the asian guy was their "thrill" for the day.

all the speculations as to what happen? well it was a D1ck measuring contest where they all lost.

now as to what would we do in a similar situation, well it depends really... one thing is for sure if the RR driver would have started knocking down bikers along the way it wouldn't have made him any different than them. he just wanted to get his family to a populated location so they had a better chance.

Interesting to watch this unfold...in media and opinions.

While it is easy to call them thugs and a mob, the legal question is more nuanced. Specifically is the range rover driver criminally or civilly responsible for the injuries Miezes suffered? As pointed out above he was not the guy that started it (ie 'brake check guy).. so what is his responsibility?

Points to consider:

He didnt have a license
He has over 15 citations on record.
he was wearing a mask to hide his identify
Reportedly plate removed from the bike.

Does he have a history of participating with such a pack? did he know what was likely to be done during the even?

Clearly after the incident, when Miezes was run over, the acts of the mob became physical and agrgessive and the driver had a right to defend himself...but at the point he bumped into the one bike, and others began attacking the car, it will be argued miezies was an innocent bystander.

There is an interesting nuance- that Leiu made a bit of an aggressive move- he honked when cut off, and the brake check guy decided 'yeah, we're gonna stop him'. It was a small challenge, but part of the cascade.

Anyway, when does the 'gang' become 'one' and the actions for one agaisnt you can be retailiated agaisnt with a strike agaisnt any of them? Conceptually it is easy- and with the comments above it is clear how some might react. But what if a biker said 'this guy was running over bikers so I called 911 and followed behind him to report to police- when all of a sudden he reversed up the off ramp and ran me over".

anyway, going to be interesting...

A

PS
I once got into it with another car, I was driving a rental. Ultimately I realized he was trying to ram me. It is actually quite hard to avoid immediate challeneges (other cars, him, traffic controls) but also make plans not to get 'trapped'....wild u turns, through parking lot, etc.... But in a panic, your brain shuts down, you are forced to make decisions in areas that you've never considered... Hence an interesting discussion to have...

Interesting question.

My 'line' is physical contact: when they hit me, then my actions escalate. I'd like to think I wouldnt panic and wildly plunge into them, but rather push through the crowd. Same if blocked in with cars- first try and move them with force not impacts (which can damage your car)

But once 'free' then you are doing a few things- one, trying and preventing them from getting alongside, such that they could strike the glass, shoot, or disable. Second trying to maintain visual to see if anyone IS pulling a weapon. So controlling the paths around your car... stay in the right lane, anyone alongside gets swerved into: they can stay behind or ahead. Next, speed is NOT your friend. Think OJ chase. Speed just brings you up to a new, potentially worse situation: traffic blocked, red light, etc. (unless you can outrun the aggressor, dont bother.) Do things to attract attention, piss off other drivers, have them call 911. Finally think about an end game: obviously a police station would be good, but where else can you go? If it is one person, then maybe a evasive move or two could separate you, even if you are slower: an off ramp, across traffic.

just thinking and considering this kind of thing is a good conversation...


Oh, once saw a biker who was lane splitting have words with a driver -smacked his window, and then broke his mirror. I was right behind them, wondering where this was going.... I wrote down the bikers plate number on a biz card and pulled next to the other driver when traffic slowed and gave it to him. Not sure who was more surpirsed, the driver in the car, or the biker later on....

:iagree:

Well said. I can only picture myself in the rr driver's situation.
His reaction might not be perfect but what I only know is he was outnumbered and panic.

Can we really know how we would react?
 

It is very easy for any of us commenting here to speculate what we would most likely do if we were in that position of the RR driver.
We have the luxury of time to think about various options and alternatives to deal with the situation, including stop or flee or attack, etc...
What I believe some posters hubris fails to recognize is that as much as we may think or want to react in a certain way, we really do not know for sure what we would do....

Surprise, aggravation, speculation as to intent, shock, fear, panic, anger, self preservation, family protection, etc. all will combine in various ways and intensities to ultimately mix a mental motivating cocktail that will influence and direct our immediate impulsive actions, followed by our next moves. My point is: we can say here in a relatively safe anonymous internet forum what we would LIKE to do, but we really have no idea of how we would really actually do....

Also, as has been mentioned in an earlier post, we can probably assume that one or more of these bikers may possibly have had a weapon, a firearm. With our country allowing almost anyone to easily purchase firearms, combined with the conceal and carry laws in many states, you just have to assume that the "other" driver, biker, trucker, whomever it may be, quite possibly is armed. That assumption alone should temper any sane, rational driver to attempt to factor in this possibility, when faced by the aggressive behavior that these bikers demonstrated. As much as I may want to perform an aggressive move with my vehicle, I need to remind myself that the other driver/biker may then pull out a gun and fire it at me. Do I really want to take that chance....? Do any of you really want to do that? All male testosterone reflexive aggressive and violent bravado comments on how they would react in this scenerio in this thread on this topic fail to acknowledge this very real possibility. That is why I say in reality one may act and react differently that what you initially assume you would do.

I assume that when a person mentally "snaps" as the RR driver may have, that any rational weighing of the potential consequences becomes much more difficult.

That is why this hypothetical scenario for any of us to envision ourselves in is so challenging and maybe even wishful thinking since we like to think we "know" what we would do, but in reality, we only think we do and may actually act and react very differently.

AVB, think about it, do you carry a weapon? Probably not. Most of us in NYC cannot carry a weapon. Shit, just getting a fire arm, in your house is insane tough here. I certainly don't carry. But I bet you there were more than a few thugs in that crowd that did have a gun. I would not want to find out if anyone of them would try to shoot me.

So yesterday on the news. Cops have now pulled over 300 bikers. They have photographed and cataloged every single one. They also IDed the dude bashing the car with the helmet, and expect him to turn himself in.

The RR driver also called the cops once. The wife called the cops 3 times. They have no clue why the bikers chose to mess with them. I have a feeling to get paid when an RR hits you.

That day, the bikers were all over the city. Police have received 200 calls that day from all over the city for bikers driving on sidewalks, stopping traffic, disobeying the laws and disturbing the peace. 15 arrest made that day. Yea great for the people that want to enjoy a ride and not be classified as part of those idiots.

I just want to put up a huge middle finger to all of them in that mob. Thanks to these idiots I am seriously thinking it's time to part with my bike. I can only imagine the millions of Cage drivers that are now going to screw with every sports bike out there.

AVB, think about it, do you carry a weapon? Probably not. Most of us in NYC cannot carry a weapon. Shit, just getting a fire arm, in your house is insane tough here. I certainly don't carry. But I bet you there were more than a few thugs in that crowd that did have a gun. I would not want to find out if anyone of them would try to shoot me.

So yesterday on the news. Cops have now pulled over 300 bikers. They have photographed and cataloged every single one. They also IDed the dude bashing the car with the helmet, and expect him to turn himself in.

The RR driver also called the cops once. The wife called the cops 3 times. They have no clue why the bikers chose to mess with them. I have a feeling to get paid when an RR hits you.

That day, the bikers were all over the city. Police have received 200 calls that day from all over the city for bikers driving on sidewalks, stopping traffic, disobeying the laws and disturbing the peace. 15 arrest made that day. Yea great for the people that want to enjoy a ride and not be classified as part of those idiots.

I just want to put up a huge middle finger to all of them in that mob. Thanks to these idiots I am seriously thinking it's time to part with my bike. I can only imagine the millions of Cage drivers that are now going to screw with every sports bike out there.

As part of my employment, we are undergoing through some driving technique training... My agency is not charged with attacking, or pursuing bad guys (some sections actually are), we are in business of protection, so we are "designed" to flee a scene... They teach us how to throw a car in reverse, back out of a blocked road, do a J-turn and take off, they showed us how to properly ram a car that is blocking your way to escape the harm... The more important thing about the training, not just the physical ability to execute those actions but the mental preparedness to encounter such a thing...

As I drive, I treat my daily commute and leisure trips as a walk on a wild side, when something can and will happen... If I were driving the RR, i would have tried to avoid the damage and injuries but my paramount goal would have been to protect the welfare of the child and spouse, and i would have treated anyone outside of the vehicle as a potential threat, regardless if the person was a simple bystander or whatnot - if the person was in close proximity to my conveyance, he is a threat and should be dealt with accordingly... if the guy ended up under the RR as the SUV moved forward, it is clear that the guy was deliberately blocking the path of a moving vehicle in order to assist his accomplices in inflicting harm to the RR driver and passenger - does anyone here think that the bikers stopped the vehicle to offer ice cream to the kid and flowers to the lady???.

Self-defense is clear here...

Boom well said.

More thoughts....
 

SlickGT!:

I see that you felt so strongly about your points that you said them twice :D

Your assumption is correct, I do not own any guns.....
Yet as a young teenager I was on a couple of rifle teams (22's) and became a NRA-registered expert marksman, shooting at paper targets. While I am not a hunter, I appreciate the sporting aspect of gun use and ownership in this country. Yet I also believe that the US Constitution's 2nd Amendment has been grossly misinterpreted by many in this country, warping its original intention by our founding fathers, to rationalize and justify the "right" to own semi-assault weapons and large capacity magazine clips. While I believe this is foolish and wrong, it is currently legal in many states.

Too many people, motivated by fear, have purchased guns legally with the stated purpose for possible protection. That is their right, however flawed you or I may think it is.

But this thread is not about gun rights, so let me get back to the point I made in an earlier post. For anyone to say they would consciously use their vehicle as a weapon, to consciously hurt any of these swarming motorcyclists, they would have had to have "snapped", lost all rational decision-making ability. They would no longer be fearful of any sort of retaliatory actions by the bikers, including the very real possibility of one or more of them pulling out a gun and using it. This form of Road Rage, has happened before in this country and I wonder if it will start to occur more frequently.....???
Also, it can work both ways, as reminded in the scene from the movie EASY RIDER.

I appreciate your concern that a few "bad apples" of cyclist can tar and feather the perceptions of many people, to the point that it diminishes your joy and satisfaction of riding your motorcycle. That is a shame but certainly understandable.

It has been my experience as a NJ resident who commutes M-F by car into Manhattan, that many motorcyclists disobey a number of traffic laws. Most commonly it is when vehicles are in stop-and-go traffic leading into the Lincoln or Holland Tunnels and the cyclists just drive between the two lanes of stopped cars in order to get farther ahead.

Then once in the City, we drivers now have to be extra cautious to drive and gingerly navigate alongside and around the many new bicyclists riding on the streets. Most of them are either clueless about traffic laws or just decide to disregard them entirely, by riding through red lights, ignoring designated bike lanes, let alone riding without any helmet.

But that is what driving in NYC is all about today....

Slick I feel bad for you especially living in NYC and trying to enjoy the fall weather on your supersport (what do you ride btw?). Most of you know that I am a die hard enthusiast rider, I had an SV650 for a couple years, then traded up to the now discontinued SV1000 (think Suzuki's version of the RC51) for a couple years, and although I LOVED my literbike twin sportbikes, I stopped riding sportbikes for 2 reasons, although it killed me because they are so much fun and really make you imrpvoe your limits as a rider.

1) My gf (now my wife) at the time had no interest in joining me as a passenger on a sportbike, due to the riding position, etc, I agreed with her, sportbikes although they include a pillion are not comfortable for 2-up riding. I had to get something that I could enjoy solo, as well as enjoy with her as a passenger (and not a burden passenger leaning on your back!)

2) I was sick and tired after 5 years of being asked "how fast can you go on your crotch rocket?" I almost punched guys a few times for being so ignorant, first of all it was a V-twin sportbike, second of all any asshole can go fast in a straight line. I also was sick and tired of being involved and associated with that Ruff Ryders/ "thug sportbike" crowd I referenced earlier in this thread.

So now with my Triumph Thunderbird Storm, I fly a little more under the radar, still have a shit ton of power between my legs, although with a more comfortable ride I enjoy solo as well as 2-up. Can I lean as far? Nope. Do I not get hassled by cops, EVER? Yep. Do I want to add a naked bike to the stable (Triumph Speed Triple) for someday going on solo, more spirited rides by myself? Absolutely, but I'm glad I got rid of the sportbike and the stereotypes as well.


And I normally agree with you on most things, but as far as the "if the RR driver was carrying in the vehicle" line goes, I respectfully disagree.

We can all agree that you are not going to stop illegal thugs with illegally obtained guns, hell in this case we can't even expect them to have licenses, registered bikes, let's not even ask if they are insured!


However, I beg to differ that if NY were a state where you are allowed to carry in a vehicle as long as you have proper Firearms ID and it is a legally obtained weapon, and upon a traffic stop the first thing you do is identify to an officer that you are carrying in the vehicle, there might have been a more level playing field here.

Throw this same situation in Texas, the thugs will be EXACTLY the same. unregistered bikes, most likely a couple of them with an illegally obtained weapon. They would think twice about assaulting the vehicle and coming after the driver if they were met with gunfire down there, as most drivers and citizens carry a firearm in their vehicle.


Yes, you're right as well that there is a chance that if he drew a weapon the ones who had weapons might have drawn down as well, but just the fact that he surprised the mob by drawing his own weapon (if he was allowed to legally carry one in the vehicle) might have bought him enough time to get out a bit safer, and would have made the thugs think twice about chasing him down for miles and pulling him from the vehicle and beating him down on a busy street.



Just my 2 cents, you need not agree. But I for one would have felt a lot safer with my firearm in the vehicle if I was met with a mob like this, if for nothing just to keep them at bay while I tried to exit, and to make them think twice about dragging me out for a beating. No matter how many guys you have, are you gonna charge at a guy pointing a gun at you and not expect to induce some damage if you attack?


I would like to add that I am a licensed firearms owner in NJ and own 2 handguns currently, NJ laws are a joke as I'm sure NY laws are as well, probably even worse actually (although you really can't get worse than this). In NJ you can only lawfully have a gun in the vehicle for transport if the gun itself is in a locked container unloaded, and ammunition is in a separate locked container, which is not in the center console or glove box. And you may only lawfully do this in state if you are travelling to the gun range or gunsmith, and you may not make any unnecessary stops to or from.

As far as in the car goes but travelling across state lines, you must obey the laws of the state you are going through as far as having a firearm in the car goes (say if you were going to a friends house in NC, and wanted to shoot some rounds while you were down there), but again once you cross over into NJ, you need to get back to your destination (home) with your firearms as quickly and as directly as possible, no unnecessary stops or you risk at a traffic stop having a citation issued and possibly firearms confiscated.



Not sure why NY laws are for comparison, I'm sure you would know.

Suzuki GSXR bikes. Now have a 1k GSXR, 2012. I went away from the flashy looking bikes. Used to have a telefonica, and alstare, corona 1k, blue and whites. This one is all black, trying to stay under the radar. Even stock pipe. Only places I manage to enjoy it though is in NJ and PA. I can't find shit in the city with enough twists. Now these biker gangs making a bad rep for us, is gonna suck. I just feel it, people already hate us, this is going to make it worse. The cops are of no help either. Until they pull you over and find out you are all legit, you are squid.

NYC gun laws. NYC has the strict ass laws. Forget about carry. Not going to happen unless you have some serious connection or an undeniable need to have one. As far as transporting the gun, same as you.

I will never be able to get a CCW licence in NYC. I didn't even get my small arms licence yet. I only have the rifle currently.

I agree with you on everything though.

Yeah NJ is same with CCW licence, "have to demonstrate need" which basically means unless you are retired cop, work as a PI, or are a woman who has restraining orders out, you can't get it. So although we have the "opportunity", both states really have no chance for the average law abiding citizen/gun owner.

I could never be licenced to conceal carry either, too bad I didn't take a career in law enforcement (I tried for a couple years but gave up bc being a cop in NJ takes a lot of ass kissing for a lot of years and is a very political process).


And i'm fairly certain NY is same as NJ for handguns, but each time you want to buy a handgun in NJ you have to actually have applied for a PPP (pistol purchasers permit) and have one issued for each time you buy a handgun, and in the process they send out a letter to your employer and 3 references and have to get the paperwork back from them before they issue the permit. And the permit is good only for 90 days, renewable once, and you may only buy one handgun every 30 days legally. And once you buy a handgun, two copies of the permit have to be sent to the state, one to your municipality for their files and one to the NJSP for theirs.

Sound like NY? lol



And hey if you ever make it out my way in the Jerz and don't mind cruising around with a converted "power cruiser" guy, you can always hit me up for a ride on a nice day.

Same shit in NY. And I have to take my gun to One Police Plaza to have it ballistics fired. At least that's free.

Yea I would go for a ride, but hasn't worked out for me recently. Once the second baby gets bigger, I am sure I will have free time, then yea. I also have a few friends in Edison who love taking me on some nice NJ sprints.

Anyway. Wife giving me serious pressure to stop riding in the city because of this mob/RR thing. So we will see how this whole thing plays out. I've already been pulled over though, so not happy about this at all.

Bikers/Range Rover Chase
 

The NY laws are pretty much the same. And yes NY has some of, if not the strictest gun control laws of any state. The problem here in NY is the prosecution and sentencing of gun offenders. There is little fear of any kind of a strict sentence
If arrested for illegally carrying a firearm in NYC unless you have several prior convictions, of which require them to be for at least one violent crime. So there really is no incentive for a criminal to not carry a gun around. It's sad. And it will get worse here in NYC before it gets better. But that's a story for another thread.

And again my heart does go out to the paralyzed rider. I don't know what his involvement was in this rally, but it may just be that he decided to go along for a ride with people he didn't even know, never rode with before and had no idea of any bad intentions some of the riders may have had.

That is a hopeful thought Dunkel for the paralyzed rider, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time as well. But if you signed up for this kind of ride where you knew the riders would be blocking on-ramps, removing license plates, etc, you know some shit could definitely go down. This wasn't a "Sunday Funday" kind of cruise in the back roads.

Yup, they were planning for shit to go down. This wasn't just a ride. Bent plates, no licenses, not legal bikes.

Remind me, how it goes...

Those who live by a sword, can die by a sword?... or something like that... that rider who got the short end of the shtick - he was about to serve that end of the shtick to the driver, or, at least, was helping others to serve it to the RR driver...

We should see how the legal battle unfolds... That outcome will tell us more about us than most other things - while I expect the bikers to get off with a slap on the wrist, due to our legal system's weak "bite", I wonder if the RR driver will get any punishment... In my opinion, with presented choices, he had chosen only one feasible option, to flee and try to save his family, as we all saw the other alternative when the bikers got hold of him...
We'll see...

Supposedly according to the lawyers on the news, the RR driver will not be charged, as you are not liable for injuring someone while fleeing a imminent harm to yourself or your property.

The biker that smashed the window in the end. He is in jail. Bail set to 100k, 70k cash. Gave the cameras two middle fingers while in court too. His lawyer said that yes, he smashed the window, but was not part of the attack. Too bad there were like a million witnesses, being NYC streets and all. People have these fools from windows and street level and all the great stuff.

Supposedly there were quite a few off duty cops in this gang too.

Oh, and talking to a cop friend of mine. Special Task Force unit. They are now required to stop, field question, and issue summons for whatever they find wrong with the rider or bike. So if you only have a permit, and no licensed biker in sight, you are screwed. They are supposed to tow your shit. If you don't even have permit, you are super screwed.

Just saw this:

Christopher Cruz, Biker Charged After SUV Gang Assault, Says He's Not Responsible - Yahoo

If that paralyzed biker dies, this dude and everyone else that got arrested will be charged with some sort of murder.

Correct me if I am wrong, but on the ABC news there is a comment "my brake lights didnt go on"...yet when looking at the tape I could swear I see a flash of brakes as he doest the final slow down, and the SUV hits his tire moments later.

Anyone see this?

Well just like on a car, you let go of the throttle...it will slow down. all this guys are just not taking responsibility for their actions.

look at this genius http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zpiz...e_gdata_player

^^ he said he cannot take sides....but then says something like ''i dont want to be put in a situation like the SUV driver ...to have to commit a crime to get out of there'.

Everyone spinning there sides...

there are accidents... and then, there are deliberate acts...

Accidents happen when there is no intent to cause harm, injury or damage but sh!t happens (due to lack of training, lack of knowledge, plain stupidity, whatever...)

Deliberate acts - this is a different story... you can't throw your bike in front of a car in an attempt to slow it down to divert its direction and then claim that you operated a faulty equipment and did not know that placing your vehicle in close proximity to other vehicle will cause damage and/or injury - even making such a claim makes you an incompetent driver/motorcycle rider...

This falls along the lines:

but Your Honor, I am innocent, I was peeling an apple with my 12" blade, and the victim walked by, slipped on the peel and fell right on my knife... 7 times in a row...

If you have ever driven a bike, or any other manual shift vehicle, shit even put your X5 into manual mode and shift it yourself, I can show you ways to slow down without touching the brakes that will make your head snap.

I used to co drive my friends Porsche for autocross. I could down shift that so hard, the rears would lock up. And in a Porsche, with engine over the rear wheels, that should tell you something.

On a bike, I can lock up the rear downshifting from 6 all the way to 1. The only time the rear would spin is when the bike would slow down enough, or if I clutched in.

That biker is full of shit no matter how you slice it. I wish I was interviewing him. Make that pussy shake after I tare up every comment he makes.

Unwillingness to take responsibility....
 

I'm very glad you quoted the "True Roosevelt", Teddy, the fight for American values type of President, not America's version of a dictator aka FDR who rolled out socialization programs to get Americans dependent on their country in the years to come, which over the years has gotten Americans to demand the government provide them with more, and not "What can I do for my country?" type of mindset.

Carry on, that is a discussion for another day, but agree with you on all points above.


That Cruz prick is a stupid sonofabitch if he thinks that any guy who knows how to ride believes that he didn't know how fast he'd slow down if he let off the throttle. What a TOOL, and he is a shame to bikers everywhere.

I want to be part of the juries when they prosecute these losers.

I read in the local newspaper in Stafford, VA, that a judge forbid a woman from spanking her 7-year old. The woman took a plea deal, as otherwise she was facing several years in prison for child abuse. The kid misbehaved, the mother spanked her on the butt with a leather belt, the enstranged husband reported the (x)wife...


Now, my question is to the judge - will the woman be able to sue the judge (and the procecutor, for that matter of fact) when her grown up daughter, say, 18 or 20, commits a crime, because she was NOT taught the responsibility values as a kid because the judge prevented the mother from teaching the kid those values?...

where are we heading as a society, when a society shields the kids from responsibility, from punishment (and how do you punish a kid who doesn't care about money, responsibility? spank his a$$!!!) while they are little, and then swings with a full force of the law enFORCEment once they are all grown up... the society sets them up for this failure...

I am not saying this as an excuse for their behavior, that the society is at fault - they should know that every action will have a reaction... I am just perplexed by the sheer ability of the lawyers to spin the facts... good thing, there are video footages from different angles, and the guys can't deny the facts - shit is a shit, no matter how dice it, slice it or garnish it...

Hmm.

Yeah, my truck would have become a wrecking ball for any bike near it.

Yup, I would have the bikers calling for help.

Term, have you ever figured out how to buy the video recorders like the ones all over Russia. I am now thinking the only way that SUV driver is not getting the short end of the stick, is because of the video.

I am really interested in getting a pair of the recorders.

I did get one model, with two cameras, one facing forward, one facing into the cabin, running off an SD card with upto 32Gb, but i did not like it... the front camera did not give enough width in the coverage, the inside camera was the same, the unit was too bulky and the 32G only worked for 4Gb, which was about 40 minutes worth of recording... the thing was about a $100...

I am checking into a full blown, 8-channel mobile DVR with hard drive recording (i have a 160Gb drive laying somewehere), with GPS, and 3G cell phone internet capacity... I have found a nice installation location for it, set up power for it and made up a harness for the cameras... i did not run the cameras yet - kids, family... you know, the same BS excuses that keep me away from a gym!!!! lol...

Saw this too. The IA rep is saying that had the officers intervened, they would have escalated the situation. Bullshit. Their badges should be in the trash.

Weren't some or all of them under (deep) cover?

The guy that smashed in the rear window was an undercover policeman. Oops.

Undercover cop charged in SUV attack | New York Post

Wow. UC or not.... inexcusable.

Yea I got pulled over once on my bike by a cop in a car, in a different lane, in front of me. He said I was tailgating him. I could smell that he was wasted. Combined with his crazy red face, slurred speech, and him yelling stupid shit at me. I took off my helmet, called the cops and said a drunk cop pulled me over. That shit took my docs, and threw them in a puddle as he and his partner ran to his car and left. Oh the drunk was driving. This was a while ago.

I really need car and bike cams. These cops need to be put in place more so than the bikers.