Gun Topic/Debate
 

As posted by rm2grow......

"Listen, I've owned an FAL and still own an old Ruger P90. I'm clearly not anti-gun. And like other gun owners, I've enjoyed weekly trips to the range and killing beer cans in MI. The problem is this: I just really thought I could be on a forum...an AUTO forum, for once and not have the "gotta' watch out for them evil gang bangers, keep em loaded boys" kind of conversation. In my opinion, it's usually "code talk" of a bunch of closeted supremacist further perpetuating the idea that "they" are a threat, all the time, everywhere and that dealing with complex societal problems is best done with bullets(hollow points or otherwise). "They" usually meaning "innately violent" people who don't look like us and threaten our "freedoms". There are more than enough places online to voice those opinions...all day friggin' long, if that's what you're into. I chimed in because I'm frustrated that these misguided, simple minded, concepts seem to work their way into just about every conversation these day. I'm tired of it. This isn't a gun or a "survivalist" forum, so not having to hear anymore of the BS, should be a reasonable request. I understand that, somewhat hypocritically, I've just contributed to it and that I've made some assumptions. So, my apologies. Now, how about we just squash this entire GUN and killing conversation and get back to talking, helping each other out, etc. regarding X5's. Pretty please..with a cherry on top. Besides, it seems like we've all got a common enemy - we call them stealerships and I believe that's why this thread was started. ;) "

You have MANY incorrect generalizations in this statement.

The purpose of C carry is protection, not "watching out for them evil gang bangers" and ""They" usually meaning "innately violent" people who don't look like us and threaten our "freedoms".
This is nothing more then profiling. A responsible citizen is not concerned with the appearance of the person posing the threat.

As for the "it's usually "code talk" of a bunch of closeted supremacist further perpetuating the idea that "they" are a threat, all the time, everywhere".
This is nothing more then your definition of those who choose to stand up and protect themselves, loved ones and property from unprovoked infringements on their rights and liberties.

As for "and that dealing with complex societal problems is best done with bullets(hollow points or otherwise)."
Nobody in their right mind can think for a second that complex societal issues can be resolved with deadly force, much less find it the BEST solution!

Glad to clear this up for you.:thumbup:

"Sorry to hear that you have to deal with stuff like that. I understand your position. I guess that’s where we are apart. I don’t believe any of my cars or my wallet is worth someone’s life. And there is a good chance by pulling a gun, things can turn from bad to worse. I totally believe in protecting your home and family but taking lethal weapon to public places is where I disagree with. Anyways, enough chant from me."

In a drive up ATM robbery a few weeks ago in my area, the woman was forced into her trunk at gunpoint and driven around for hours. The vehicle was left with her in the trunk, lucky for her the police got a missing person report, saw vehicle and let her out.

My position on "not worth" having a gun because things can go from bad to worse was changed when I was approached at an ATM at the mall in Westchester, NY. Four people approached as the ATM dispensed money, 3 with knives. Had no escape from the situation and money was demanded, lifting my jacket to show the Beretta 92FS ended the situation (there had been numerous car break-in robberies at the mall, only had the gun on me because I didn't want it stolen from my vehicle, I was at the range prior to the mall).

Only a fool will assume that a person confronting/robbing them while armed will leave them alive at the end of the altercation.

This is exactly right. And sometimes what starts off as a simple "give me your wallet" can escalate even when the victim submits.

Examples:

Man shot during apparent robbery in Tacoma | Crime | The News Tribune

Woman shot during robbery at Vista restaurant - 10News.com KGTV ABC10 San Diego

Often, as in TiAg's story, the would-be victim presenting a gun is enough to deter the bad guy. Bad guys want easy targets. Being ready to defend yourself can make them reconsider their actions.

Another story from a friend. He grew up in a bad area of the city and was visiting family who still lives there. Sitting at a stop light with his daughter strapped into her car seat in the back, a guy walks up with a gun and says "get out of your car". My friend pulls out his revolver and says "no". The bad guy's eyes get huge and he runs away. Then my friend sees another bad guy come out of hiding from behind his car and also run away.

Do you think the bad guys are going to wait around and let my friend take his daughter out of her car seat? Hardly...had he gotten out, not only would his car be gone, but his daughter along with it.

Here's the event that brought "shall issue" gun laws back to TX in '95.

Luby's shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's accounts of law abiding citizens exercising their 2nd amendment right, many were resolved without the firing of the handgun.

Most never made the national news, the media likes to ONLY report stories when it endorses/proves the need for their "gun grabbing/no shall issue" agenda.

Enough incident info to keep someone reading for MONTHS......

American Rifleman | The Armed Citizen®

tiag I'm with you brother.

We get the carjackings with children in the vehicle all the time here in TX

An interesting FBI/Justice Dept statistic shows the ""watching out for them evil gang bangers" and ""They" usually meaning "innately violent" people who don't look like us and threaten our "freedoms"" as total BS.

Data shows less the 5% (fewer then 1 in 20) shootings of African Americans are done by non-African Americans, while over 15% (more then 3 in 20) shootings of Caucasian Americians are done by non-Caucasian Americians.

With this data, the argument could be made that "profiling/don't look like us" shooting are real, Caucasians are 3 TIMES more likely to be victim of it.

Thanks RB.

We have 2 bills being reviewed here in TX, looks like open carry of handguns might become legal.

Glad I never went the compact/mini/micro handgun route. I won't need to "dress around" a full size Sig if it passes! When clothes shopping now, my first question is, will the Sig visible outline thru this garment.

I expect to see a spike in Desert Eagle 50AEs sales here in "bigger is better" TX, should the bill pass!

Subscribed with :popcorn:, would be great to hear from you guys in the last frontier of Freedom.

NJ unfortunately will never be a "may issue" state so I can't even get a CCW.

You guy in the NE are dealing with Blumberg/his millions/his cronies.

They dropped hundreds of millions and STILL couldn't stack the house/senate with "gun grab" goons. All hope is not lost.

Illinois got concealed carry last year because their "no issue" policy was deemed by the US Supreme Court to be incompatible with the 2nd Amendment. Now I think they have a "shall issue" policy after a certain amount of training and a firearm owner ID card.

So there's hope for Jersey if someone wants to fight it.

The NRA is currently "butting heads" with the "no issue" states on the state/fed court level.

Unfortunately the state of Illinois is "micro managing" the "shall issue" policy.

The permits ONLY allow residents to carry in the issuing county, if you don't get a Cook County permit, you can't carry in Chicago.

Reciprocity law now allows out of state permit holders to "car carry" handguns in Illinois.

I travel quite a bit in the X, and keep a close eye on what states allow vehicle/carry firearms with a TX permit.

Oh lame! I hadn't heard about the county-by-county piecemeal.

Sounds like Washington State knife laws. There are all sorts of conflicting laws city-by-city. For example, you can't carry a fixed-blade knife or knife with a longer blade than 3 1/2"in Seattle. But surrounding suburbs have no such law.

Good that Illinois has some amount of reciprocity. And you're probably aware of Utah and Florida permit reciprocity helping travelers out, right?

Well aware.

I hope for the best, prepare for the worst, and ALWAY follow the current handgun laws nationwide (has kept me alive and without legal issues for the last 30 yrs).

NJ Gun Law - Transporting Firearms within the State
 

I stumbled upon this thread and will add my observations and understanding of the gun laws in my state of New Jersey. As many of you are aware, New Jersey has some of the most stringent and, not necessarily well thought out gun laws. One good example is the requirements for transporting guns within the state of NJ, (as opposed to out-of-staters traveling through NJ with firearms). NJ gun law essentially is interpreted by many attorneys to mean that when transporting a firearm you must legally do all of the following:

• Unloaded: The firearm must be unloaded, as in there must be no ammunition in the gun. NJ defines the word firearm meaning the actual gun, under current law, transportation of a loaded magazine would not be considered a loaded gun, but must not be in the gun.
• Cased/Wrapped: If the vehicle has a defined trunk separate from the passenger compartment, the firearms are to put in the trunk. If no trunk is present, as in a SUV, the firearm must be in a fastened case/wrapped/etc. and located in the far back of the vehicle. Any ammunition must be is a separate container.
• Destination: It is important to recognize that NJ dictates that your course of travel while transporting firearms should be as direct as possible, from your home to your gun club or range, without any stops in between, (i.e. getting something to eat at a fast-food restaurant, performing other errands, etc.)
  
  
  Firearms ID Card: While not specifically addressed in the statutes, that I am aware of, I make sure that I have my NJ-issued Firearms ID card in my wallet when I am traveling to and from the range to practice. I take it a step further, and while not required, I have put a photocopy of each of my Pistol Purchase Permits with each of my pistols in their respective gun rugs that are in my range bag, just in case if I ever need to prove to a LEO that they are legally mine.
  

Firearms owned by NJ residents must be either originally or made: "NJ compliant". Under NJ law, possession of firearms is restricted to certain exemptions, and if you're within those exemptions there is nothing for the police to verify with regards to whether or not the firearm belongs to you or not. But much is left to the discretion of the particular LEO who may have stopped you for some other moving violation (i.e. speeding) or other type of infraction (i.e. burned out tail lamp, etc.)

To be clear, if I am ever stopped by a LEO while on my way to the range with guns in the back of my vehicle, I would NOT volunteer this information to him and would only reveal that fact if they directly ask me if I have firearms in my vehicle. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by volunteering this information if it is not solicited by the LEO and can only open up a potentially "Pandora's Box" of legal pitfalls.

People sometimes get in trouble because they are illegally possessing a firearm that is lawfully theirs, (for example: keeping a loaded handgun in their car without a carry license). The issue for a LEO to figure out when he stops you, (if they even care in the first place), is how and to where it's being transported, not if it's stolen or not - again unless they have a reasonable suspicion to think you are involved in some sort of other criminal activity. So my precautions are probably over the top, but I would rather follow them and be ready for various LEO's interpretation of the law and have some peace of mind.

AVB-AMG

Well, I knew it was gonna be good after he proclaimed himself the proud owner of a Ruger P90 lol! :rofl:

I bought a Ruger P89 back in the '80s, fired 2 full clips thru it and sold it for 1/2 purchase price. Got a Beretta 92FS, carried that for almost 2 decades!

I carry a SIG 227 45ACP now. If the open carry law passes here in TX, this is next......

Glock for almost 2 decades myself, but started and still have a soft spot for 1911's.

I wouldnt mind the Beretta or Sig at all though, nice guns, but that Deagle is massive!

If I had to carry that, it'll probably be with a sling lol!

I will only purchase if open carry passes in Austin.

Almost 11" LOA and 4.5 lbs.

New All Stainless Desert Eagle-Gun Review – GunsAmerica Digest

I'm all for everyone carrying one but at the same time open carry has to be not a very great idea. I mean sure you can feel safe having one and showing it but if you're alone and someone comes from behind and points a gun to your head and TAKES you gun... well eff, me.... there goes a $$$$$$$.... FML.

That take away aspect is certainly an issue, TX lawmakers are looking at data from other "open carry states (AZ for one).

If someone is going to open carry and minimize the chance of being stripped from behind, it needs to be a forward cant/release holster with a thumb activated release. Also needs to be forward of the hip bone (2 o-clock for RH, 10 0-clock for LH), this make the gun difficult to grab/grip/release/forward remove from behind.

Anyone who uses a vertical, non-retention holster (at the 3 or 9 o-clock position) is asking to be stripped from behind.

There is a standing offer of reward for an authoritative citation to a simple gun grab of an open carrier at OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum Open Carry Dot Org discussion forum.

I took up my gun on passage of South Carolina's 1996 Law Abiding Citizens Self-Defense Act, making gun carry legal in SC. Ten years later I moved to Wisconsin that is a traditional open carry state that shortly passed Wisconsin's 2011 Act 35 that legalized permitted concealed carry.

My open carry gun is an SA1911A1 in a SERPA. My concealed carry gun is an H&K USPc .40 in a Versa Carry II minimal 'holster'. My dress-up gun is a beautiful shooter Mauser-Interarms American Eagle Luger in black satin.

Kansas Gov Brownback has signed a law that allows concealed carry without any permitting (still illegal for convicted felons to possess firearm of course).

This Gov is logical and signs laws that follow his ideals, low taxes and minimum government regulation.

Ohio is still "nuts" when it comes to firearm and personal protection. A man was just given 20 yrs for shooting an armed intruder/robber IN HIS OWN HOME!!!

The retarded Ohio jury felt the homeowner should have escaped HIS OWN home, climbing out his ground floor bedroom window when he heard someone inside was their logical response to this situation, not grabbing his handgun and going to investigate!!!

I wonder if that's the protocol at the Ohio Gov's home, if they hear an intruder, the armed security staff all climb out windows?

That's retarded. I just looked it up, Ohio has no duty to retreat in your home.

Unless the shooting was ruled as something other than self defense?

Totally retarded.

It can happen when the Judge, Prosecutor, and Jury are "anti-gun", and the defendant has an idiot public defender.

I didn't get any details on the story, doubt it was a "back shot" while intruder was escaping (a major no-no in claiming a justified home intruder shooting, if intruder attempts to escape, homeowner MUST allow it).

I am not a gun owner, gun fan and live in Canada.

After reading these 3 pages guns make more sense to me now anyway, the way you guys talk about them they are a tool not a weapon.

It's unfortunate the media only seems to report improper gun usage by citizens (most crimes averted by victims pulling handguns go unreported, and are "non-stories" for the media).

As with any tool, there are right & wrong ways to use them (children/uninstructed adults can get injured/killed when used incorrectly (you don't let a 10 yr old operate a chainsaw)).

Texas State House of Reps votes on open carry today, looks like it will get the green light!

This bill will also give CHL holders the ability to concealed carry handguns on college/university property.

TX house has approved the open carry bill!!!

Gov Abbott has already stated he WILL sign it!!!

Good news for TX citizens.

Great news! Now Texans can use their Constitutionally-guaranteed rights without breaking un-Constitutional state laws. ;)

Enjoy your freedom to carry as you wish!

I'm online shopping the Desert Eagle 50AE in stainless tonight.

I rented a DE in .44mag once. It was unreal...flames, burning powder everywhere, and a massive BANG. Can't imagine what the .50AE is like.

The gas bolt mechanism is really interesting and did a good job in taming the .44mag.

Beware the cost of your ammo!

FedGov regularly interferes with it's availability via their deep pockets of our tax money. At the moment DHS has just let another contract for ~50 Million rounds of 5.56 mm.

My preferred FEDERAL EFMJ .45 & .40 is frequently not available and the price has skyrocketed.

I've been checking 50AE price & availability each month over the past 2 yrs. I go to the indoor range at Bass Pro Shop in Grapevine TX.

Always in stock, and around 30% more expensive vs the 45ACP I use in the Sig 227.

I've yet to see any DHS orders of 50AE, so the supply should remain constant.

I had a range buddy in the late 80s who had the 44 DEagle, he had small hands and disliked the gun.

I got to fire a few clips thru it and LOVED IT!!! 25 yrs later and I still recall it as the best range session ever.

It's not a small hands and/or limp wrist gun. Lots of vids online with shooters controlling recoil with their foreheads. :rofl:

They must have bought A LOT of 22lr then!

I carried concealed - IWB 9 o' clock - under a sport coat, recently, in my new X5. Very comfortable, much more than my VW.

Are there any recommendations for the location of a X5 driver's side mounted holster, please?

Ive always liked the gun holsters that mount under the steering column for a primary weapon, and a back-up in the console.

If the firearm is left in the vehicle, a quick access gun vault is the way to go. My neighbor has one built into the console bin area of his DD Hummer H2, very slick.

Having spent a few yrs working at the Middle River Aircraft facility in MD, I find the situation there disturbing.

The mobs were stealing cars and using them to crash into responsible citizens vehicles, dragging out drivers/passengers and robbing them. The riot control police were ordered to "stand down" and let the mobs "blow off steam".

I wonder how the "anti-gun" people would feel having been in that situation, intentionally wrecked, dragged out, roughed up/robbed, and the police 100ft away (in full riot gear!) follow their orders and do nothing but WATCH!!!

Hope you "guns are bad" people feel the same if it ever happens in your town.

20yrs ago my ex hated having a Beretta 9mm in the house (NE St Pete, FL), thought having ADT in the home was enough. When the riots broke out in South St Pete ALL police and dept vehicles were sent to the ballpark lot to control the riot. Used this time to point out how useful an ADT call would be!

Open carry is still held up in Austin. The bill has a condition that states law enforcement officers cannot stop those open carrying to verify handgun permits.

LEOs are pushing to have that condition removed.

Bill passed and signed.....

Gov. Abbott signs open carry, campus carry into law

Now if you can just send some of that "common sense" (gotta love how that phrase has been beaten to death at every opportunity by the anti's) to the NE part of the nation.

I'm starting to feel claustrophobic here in PA as the walls seem to be closing in instead of opening up.

Good luck with that DE--I prefer to OC my S&W .460XVR. It doubles as a walking stick. :D

And in other news, Colt files for Chapter 11. They are even located in the NE.

Colt lost the M4 military contract to FN a couple of years ago, which has really killed them. If you're itching for a Colt AR or 1911, better jump on it while they're still around!

Thanks, but I am one of those strange ones who think that the more gun manufacturers that go out of business, the better.

Just remember

To conquer a nation, first disarm its citizens.

— Adolph Hitler, 1933

Source?

Snopes doesn't agree with you.

snopes.com: Adolf Hitler - To Conquer a Nation

Ok i will give that one to you. It does appear to be a urban myth that hitler said that.

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington

A quotation without context is barely different from the Hitler mis-attribution above. If you're gonna quote, provide context and a useful citation. George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress (8 January 1790)

I have to say, if I was roaming those parts in 1790 I probably would have wanted a firearm as well.

So George Washington appears to have been promoting independent arms factories, particularly for essential military supplies. He goes on to talk about the troops required to maintain the peace. And he also said that the people needed to be disciplined (presumably in their use of the firearms).

Are current (existing or proposed) firearms regulations considered to be part of that discipline of which he spoke?

The gun manufacturers that "hang their hats" on government and/or military contracts and do not actively support the 2nd Amendment are a lost contract or 2 away from folding.

Barrett knows this, and WILL NOT sell firearms to Law/SWAT agencies in states that refuse to provide gun purchase/ownership/WILL issue laws to it's law abiding citizens.

The anti-gunners push for more restrictive gun laws with data that states the USA is in the top 5 countries for gun violence. Take away the data from the 3 most active states for gun violence, and the US drops to the BOTTOM 5 countries for gun violence.

Those same 3 states with the most gun violence, have the most restrictive laws for gun ownership (no issue/may issue CHLs).

Funny how the lawmakers thought strict laws would reduce gun use (did they expect criminals to suddenly abide by that ONE law). All the restrictive laws did was dis-arm law abiding citizens (AKA, victims).

"Gun Free" zones look good on paper and make people FEEL safer, too bad mass shooters/criminals translate "Gun Free" zones to "Unarmed Victim" zones.

I choose to carry legally because soooooo many who intend to harm and/or rob, carry illegally.

LOL First comes the federal-camel's nose drool-money, then comes the hump! That's why some camels have two humps, so that they are not dry humps - very painful from the federal government.

There is vast scholarly jurisprudence precisely on the prefatory clauses of OUR - not yours, disarmed - Second Amendment Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and guns and The Truth.

I own, collect and shoot weekly. I believe all law abiding citizens should own a gun and be trained how to use it. These are my beliefs and I do not preach to those who do not agree. Gun owners are a silent majority in this country. President Obama was the greatest gun salesman we could have ever asked for. His views and opinions sent people running to the gun stores.

So true. Broke O'Bummer, Blumburg and their "guns are bad" friends pushed for bans and sales took off.

We have held/attended a few BBQ get togethers here in the Lakes of Coppell neighborhood where I live, have come to find ALL the neighbors within a few block have handguns for home/personal protection.

I find it comforting, knowing my neighbors choose to exercise their 2nd amendment rights.

CVS Pharmacy & Whataburger here in TX caved to the "guns are bad" crowd a few months age, took the position CC licensed gun owners are NOT allowed to carry in their stores. In the past few weeks, groups of armed criminals have been rushing in and robbing the stores and citizens shopping/eating there. Wonder how many more robberies before someone is shot.

Too bad crooks see "gun free zones" as "unarmed victim zones".

The biggest shame with "gun free zones" is our returning service men cannot protect themselves at a recruitment center. What idiot came up with that one?
When will people realize that criminals do not obey the laws.

Not only that, but also on military bases. It's silly that the only ones allowed to carry on base are MPs.

This sums up the knee-jerk retarded concept that MORE restrictive gun laws are needed to reduce crime/killings.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3zZr_Qbuaw

There was recently an article in American Rifleman which laid out how many gun laws gang bangers and gun runners could be hit with. Someone using a gun in a crime like a robbery would be up for something like 200 years based on all of the gun laws they broke.

But do we hit those guys with all those charges? Nope...

American Rifleman is the Nasty Regulators Asses house organ for its swinging members.

Follow the money to Paid-for-Privileges - P4P.

A few weeks ago a federal judge in Omaha sentenced a woman to 1 YEAR of probation for illegally buying a gun for her felon boyfriend (FFL pawnshop).

The boyfriend was a convicted felon and known gangbanger at the time of purchase. He used the firearm to kill police officer Kerrie Orozco, who was arresting him in connection to ANOTHER shooting. Kerrie was working her LAST shift before taking deferred medical leave to care for her premature newborn baby, (was being released from the hospital THAT evening!!!).

This POS gangbangers girlfriend COULD have been sentenced to 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

Funny how the lamestream media dropped the ball on covering this story. Seems it doesn't meet the "more laws needed to stop cop shootings" agenda!

Alan Korwin, undisputed gun law expert and author of 10 gun law books used by lawyers in the US, chimes in on Broke O'Bummers BS speech......

Obama’s gun speech sprinkled with inaccuracies, distortions - Guns.com

Seems the president got more wrong then right.

Here in Texas, we've had open carry for 1 week now, seen dozens of responsible CHL citizens open carrying and......no killing! How is this possible?

^ Whaaaaa?? I thought guns killed people and now that the guns are out in the open, better hope your gun doesnt jump out of the holster and randomly shoot someone without your consent lol :p

According to Hollywood, the lamestream media and the "guns are bad" goons, I should have seen a few shootings by now. This is disappointing, all these guns out in the open, and not one bullet flying!

^Barry was funny last night when he took questions from people he was unprepared to answer, really saw the real president's non rehearsed reactions for the first time:

In one breath:
"We aren't doing anything that would make it harder for you to purchase a firearm"

In the next (unprepared response):
"What we are doing is making it a little harder, and a little more expensive for criminals to go and buy a gun" (I'm paraphrasing but thats basically what he said)

^Do the criminals care about the price or legality of purchase? Who suffers then if its harder and more expensive? You guessed it, the LAW ABIDING CITIZEN. Bad enough I already can't get a CCW in my state.

I also have a real issue when he did state in that garbage address that "Right now, violent felons can go on the internet and purchase a firearm without a background check" - Yes, maybe they can ILLEGALLY. But for me and all the law abiders here, I don't know if there is a special AmazonGuns section of Prime Membership, but when I order from CheaperThanDirt for example, um, they send to my FFL dealer who does the background check prior to pickup.

Sigh. I cannot stand blatant lies and talking points. The phrase "common sense" is being thrown around and repeated so much so people think its actually true.

/End Rant.

So true RB.

I really hate how gun sales go thru the roof every time Broke O'BooHooMa opens his mouth. I've been using the Sig Sauer P227 45acp for open carry. The DE 50ae SS price will NEVER drop to a price I'm willing to pay if he keeps yapping!

I may have to wait until Nov, with fingers crossed Hellary loses. The bottom will fall out of gun prices with a pro-2nd amendment POTUS!

Y'all must be all heartless if you were not moved to turn in your guns after seeing Obama cry...

:bustingup

And speaking of lol, CTD...

http://www.2acheck.com/wp-content/up...05/CTD_ACR.jpg

Cheaper Than Dirt Rating | Second Amendment Check

^^CTD is great! Actually there is a range in my state where you can actually purchase a class to literally build an AR, they teach you to build it from scratch and disassembly as well and full instruction on the chassis - the class is 8 hours over 2 days and is $2,000 but when you are done you have a legally built and functioning AR rifle - I'm going to take it next year sometime or later this year if funds allow

Avoid Cheaper Than Dirt...they often aren't cheaper and have some surprisingly anti 2A business practices.

For instance:
BREAKING: CheaperThanDirt Suspends ALL Firearm Sales - The Truth About Guns

Also, here's another example of some price gouging ($100 for plain aluminum AR mags?!):
http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=4330

That AR class sounds fun! I've been interested in building my own but ended up with a couple of Colts instead.

Yes sir, there are a lot of better places to spend your money than CTD.

Holy crap, $2,000 for an AR and 8 hours of instruction to assemble it?

If you can work on a BMW, you can build an AR from parts. You dont need to take an expensive class on it.

All you need is a clean sturdy workbench with a bench vise and a few hand tools.

The thing to watch out for is that being in NJ you need to use certain parts as there are a few retarded gun laws you need to work around. But there are plenty online resources to guide you on that too.

From scratch? I've always wanted to try my hand at mining. ;)

Haha, come out to Jersey and lets make a weekend of it dude! There is another range which does it too, it costs like $800 less but you have to source the parts other than the lower section - I'd rather pay 2k all in and not deal with sourcing everything

While it would be fun to take a class to build your own, $2000 would buy a helluva rifle. That's Noveske territory right there. Hell..these days, you can get a Colt for $900 any day of the week.

I don't know about NJ, but in WA there are some online forums and some of the folks get together occasionally for "build parties" or will do 1 on 1 instruction. NJ might have similar local communities who would be willing to help someone out.

And, FWIW, sourcing the parts for a custom build would be half the fun! There are lots of choices out there for barrels, gas blocks, BCGs, hand guards, grips, triggers, etc. Some companies like Brownells and Daniel Defense have "build your own" websites where you can tinker with options.

ETA: Looks like there's a forum called New Jersey Gun Forums which might be a good local resource.

That would be a pretty cool class. I have only ever held/shot a gun one time. One was a little dinky purse looking pistol and a revolver. Was pretty cool. I'd like to learn more but I know if I get into it I'll just end up with another hobby I cannot afford!

Yeah it's a hobby that's definitely not cheap!

If you're interested in going again, hit me up. I love teaching people how to shoot. :thumbup:

I'll hop in here, you seem like my people.

Anyone pick up an RPR yet? As soon as my LGS gets one in stock it's GONE. Really need patience here or I might pull the trigger on one from gunbroker... in 6.5 Creedmore.

Ruger® Ruger Precision Rifle™ * Bolt-Action Rifle Models

That sounds good, thanks for the offer! I do need to learn.

Its not a cheap hobby, but its the one where you feel like you are actually spending money on your Freedom :)

TECN1K - That Ruger looks pretty amazing, I may have to check it out. Just picked up Pump Action 12-gauge for home defense, my wife is getting her Firearms ID as well so we will probably get a 3rd handgun as well - in Jersey every time you get a PPP you need to send in the same forms with Mental Health Records check and Application to Purchase which is sent to 3 references and your employer - so if she's gotta go through the process we may as well get a 3rd

I have a 1911 shooting .45 ACP and a 5-shooter shooting .357 so probably would get anything shooting either of those. Trying to avoid 4 different types of ammunition if at all possible LOL

Our Home Defense, plus a few other ass't guns...

^That's almost exactly what I have - I also am getting a tactical stock with shell holder for more "urban" encounters :)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50...y14/photo3.jpg

I also always wanted a classic lever action, Winchester 1887 style with a shorter barrel, just like Arnold had in T2 when he was reloading on the Harley Fat Boy - LOL, totally unrealistic, but probably the single scene when I was 5 years old that made me think "firearms are so awesome"

http://www.factfiend.com/wp-content/...Sr-300x168.gif

Yeah that's definitely an awesome scene! Lever actions are fun to shoot. I have 4 of 'em, but no mare's leg with a large loop like Arnie's.

Marlin 336 from the 1950's
Winchester 94 from the late 1950's (inherited from my best friend who passed away a few years ago)
Marlin 1894 from the late 1800's (my great grandfather's rifle which he used when homesteading in Oregon)
Henry .22lr

All red blooded Americans must, at the very least - shoot once, an M1 Garand. I was lucky enough to come across a pristine example last year, and it's now the pride of my collection. A wartime, pacific theater, completely numbers matching November 1943 Springfield.

http://i.imgur.com/xLUZ8Fq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xYOIuyE.jpg

^^OMG that M1 is amazingly pristine

Guys at the range lose their minds. I could have gambled and dropped $700 for an unknown, mix and match CMP service grade frankenrifle. But I found this guy on GB last year, and bought it from a collector in SLC Utah. It's been completely gone through and original parts verified by Roland Beaver - with documentation.

Don't get me wrong, you can score an amazing rifle through CMP and I encourage everyone to look into it. Every man should own a Garand.

http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/

That's a gorgeous Garand! And a nice collector piece, with it being all original. Those are hard to come by these days.

My friend's dad (the one who gave me the Winchester 94) has a nice Garand too. It's got a national match barrel and is very accurate. Hearing the "ping" as the enbloc clip ejects is a satisfying sound.

One of these days, I want to order a CMP Garand. While their frankenrifles aren't very collectible, they make a fine shooter. Though they occasionally have some original collector grade rifles on their auction site.

This is the part of the story from some that really bothers me. I suppose there may be sites where you can do this, but if I buy a gun in the interwebs, it better be a good deal, because I can add shipping and FFL transfer fees to it.

Then, when I pick it up, there is transfer paperwork to file, and affidavits, under penalty of law, that I am buying for me, not for someone else.

Maybe I need to look harder, because evidently criminals have internet options that us mere mortals don't.:rolleyes:

I live in NJ, one of the most unfriendly gun states in the country. If and when I or anyone else decides to purchase any gun out-of-state via the internet, it has to be shipped to a licensed gun dealer who serves as a FFL in NJ. Then I or anyone else has to go through the national NICS federal database search and approval process before the FFL gun dealer can finalize the gun deal, transferring the gun to the purchaser. I do not have a problem with that. Is it a PITA, yes, but if it does prevent someone who should not be allowed to purchase a gun then it is working as intended.

Having said that, I firmly believe that too many self-proclaimed liberals have a knee-jerk reaction to any horrific mass shooting incident with the response that "we have to do something to prevent this from happening again".
That response is usually some proposed state legislation that is well intentioned, but not very well thought out. All of us law-abiding gun enthusiasts are tarred and feathered by the anti-gun folks who want to impose even more gun regulations that will not have the intended effect.

Criminals do not abide by any laws and will continue to obtain guns illegally, and the result of additional gun laws will be to just impose further restrictions on all of law-abiding US Citizens and not stop or prevent the lone wolf, mentally disturbed individual from getting a gun and doing or attempting to do some horrific mass shooting.

AVB-AMG

^it's all about the feels for them..."if it saves just one life..."

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Good Quote by Ben Franklin, complete....

Agree with all the above as also a resident of NJ - look at our neighbors/friends to the north with the UNsafe Act in New York - my buddy can't even buy ammo online, and don't they have a 10 round magazine cap now? Friggin ridiculous. I am thankful I can still buy ammo online (most places require your FID to do so along with drivers license) as it would be really annoying to not be able to buy in bulk online.

And yes, agreed about online purchases, by the time you do the shipping, FFL fee to your dealer, you may as well walk to your local gun shop and just ask them what the out the door price is, you may not be getting as good of a deal as you thought.


Just wanted to update, joined the 12-gauge and .22 LR club the other day - got a Mossberg 500 Classic, already swapped out for 12" Hogue LOP stock/forend, and 18.5" barrel and Mossberg heat shield, dressed up for tactical/home defense, but I also have the 24" barrel and wood furniture it came with if I go hunting or do some outdoor shooting - this is a seriously sturdy and well built shotgun, I'm sure it will probably outlive me.

Wife got herself a Ruger 10/22 LR Takedown, shes petite so if we go shooting with long guns she'd need something that wouldn't kill her much with recoil - its another nice, well built piece of equipment, very impressed, even came with a nice backpack type range bag. Just need to order a few 15 round magazines from Ruger to keep in the bag, I have 2 of the 10 rounders but the longer curved magazines just scream bad-ass rifle. Piggybacking my state, I am not able to legally own/purchase the Ruger 25 round magazines, sigh.

Looking forward to putting some rounds through both of these. Took advantage of Sportsman's Guide's free 30-day buyers club membership, which saved me $28 on ammo and $20 on an introductory free shipping offer. I probably will cancel the membership before the 30 days :D

Nice sticks RB!

I like the short LOP stock myself. All you need is a light on that and looks GTG for HD.

And 10/22's are fun as hell!

Interesting vid on how the Aussie gun ban has worked out. This is the program Hillary says America needs.

And don't think for a second Bernie S is "pro-gun", a key aspect of socialism is NO GUNS for the law abiding masses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGaDAThOHhA

And the UK.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKdBxpKqUvs

Criminals LOVE gun ban/control/restriction laws, it gives them a safer work environment!!!

Well the 10/22 sure is a fun little rifle - can't wait to get a Hogue stock on it as well, I absolutely love it on the Mossberg - I thought about getting the .920 Bull Barrel combo from Tactical Solutions but @ $330 for the barrel w/ fiber optic sight, and the Hogue Takedown stock, it would be basically more for that than the actual gun!

I think I'll be happy with just this -
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/vFoAAO...Kcb/s-l300.jpg
(mine has the black polymer trigger group and mag release but I do have the stainless receiver and barrel) - Ruger does sell a nice 2-3lb BX trigger group which just drops in that I would consider.


I like the stock bolt (as of 2015 new design with Ruger engraved on it), but both it and the inside of the receiver could probably use a bit of polishing to smooth the action a bit, I may get a Kidd or JVH Custom stainless and slightly extended charging handle for a bit of "bling" - Already installed the Kidd auto bolt release, stupid Ruger factory design, now I just cock back and release the slide and it will pop forward and chamber. Tons of little parts that are nice to pick up, Kidd stainless mag plunger, the charging handle mentioned above, a bolt buffer, etc.

Little bit of time with the Dremel and some metal polish should definitely smooth up the inside of the receiver and the bolt, I know it will happen over time with some rounds through it but I always strip, clean, and oil all my new guns before first trip to the range.

Have some BX15 round mags in the mail from CTD arriving, thanks to the Peoples Republic of NJ we have a cap on 15 rds, and already have 2 BX1 10 round rotary mags that the rifle came with from the factory.

Altogether, a really sweet rifle with a ton of capability for sure. The wife is gonna love shooting this one!

That Ruger 10/22 is a fun gun to shoot, nice.

Are you putting a scope on it?

Yeah I am going to try to take some pictures later of the Ruger - Ordered Tony Kidd's Magazine release (anodized - has normal length and extended length under the handle lever), stainless magazine plunger and spring, bolt buffer, and Charging handle assembly with guide rod and 3 different recoil springs. Now I just need the Hogue Takedown stock and I'll be done with the Ruger modifications for now. They weren't kidding when they said there are a ton of mods you can do to it!

My wifes grandfather had a scope in the house which he gave us for the Ruger and it came with a rail on top of the receiver for it, I need to look up what type it is, it might not be the greatest but it should work out fine for some target practice if we go up to the woods in PA. He is a wild man at 90 years old, sharp as a tack and has tons of cool gear in his attic.

He also found a Beretta pistol that he had in his attic thats probably 30 years old - wife is going to take ownership once her PPP's and FID are issued (made more sense for her to get hers as well so she can buy me ammo for Christmas and birthday, gun accessories, etc, and I used my 2 permits issued in 2014 for my two Taurus handguns), but he literally had it sitting in a leather and wool lined pounch for God knows how many years, I can't even find what model it is but its a semi-auto that looks similar to a 1911, shoots .22LR, and has a mag release in the middle of the grip on the left side - Its an awesome looking gun and definitely looks classic.

I'll do some more research later and get some pics up, but I'm really excited to strip and clean it out!

TiAg your armory probably puts mine to shame, but I am working as hard as I can to build up my supply of freedom over here! Just imagine if we could buy non-neutered rifles in NJ the freedom we'd have.

Beretta made the M71 Jaguar (22LR) years ago.

That might be what you have. If it still has the original grips, the word "jaguar" should be on them if that's what it is.

Not much of a collection here.

Sold the Beretta 92FS (nice clean gun) got near purchase price from a range friend.

Browning Model 81 BLR in .243 (over 30 yrs old, still in box, never fired).

Charter Arms .38 special Undercover revolver (BUG/vehicle firearm, Combat Pro Pachmeyer grips, also 30 yrs old, looks new, fired over 1000 rounds).

Sig Sauer P227 .45 ACP (my daily carry, over 2000 rounds and still tight like new).

Want the SS D Eagle 50 AE, still crazy money (almost $2000).

Shot a Walther PPQ .45 ACP at the range last month (neighbors new gun). Sweet piece for the money. If the DE never comes down, I may pick up the Walther and retire the Sig to the safe!

The Browning M81 243 Win is from a different era.

Early '80s, Firestone Tire had a buy 4 tires and you're entered to win this gun, I won!

Haven't opened this box in over 20 yrs......

^^OH MY GOD - I ALWAYS WANTED A CLASSIC BROWNING LEVER ACTION - I thought about getting one in 12 Gauge but on CTD they are still around $1000

The DE .50 is always going to be crazy money, sigh. Prob won't be able to afford it for years. Since I already have a revolver shooting .357 I did notice if one were to get the .357 Desert Eagle its an "afforable" $1400 + shipping and FFL fees.

If you ever decide to sell the Browning let me know - although I probably never would if I were you, wow that is an awesome contest :thumbup:

Oh and the Beretta is a Model 102 - Same gun as the Model 76 and I don't know all the history of it but from what I'm reading they switched using the Series 70 numbers in the mid sixties or so and made them as Model 100,101,102 until sometime in the 70's? I don't have exact years, but from what I can tell its not a pistol you see every day. Is in good shape too, I will have to upload some pics from Tapatalk so they can resize it for the forum.

This is exactly what I have, and besides needing a good clean/lube with some Ballistol, I'm floored! Its like owning a classic Ferrari of firearms for me. Beretta's tolerances are TIGHT, amazed at how tight the gun felt and the slide still racked ultra smooth.

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com...83/acfbee3.jpg

And I also scoured Ebay yesterday since I can't find them for sale through Beretta or most other places, found factory original new in box Walnut grips which are target grips and come in a shooting hand specific version (thumbrest on your non trigger finger side) - I shoot lefty so this was a sweet score! Never saw a need to buy lefty specific weapons but this will be nice and really dress up a period specific pistol! I'll have to dig some more to see when it was made if I can look it up by serial number somewhere.

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/uaEAAO...rs/s-l1600.jpg

Yeah, that Beretta is a rare piece.

Nice find on the lefty target grips.

Beretta has the best slide action in the business IMHO, I've handled 92s that have fired over 5000 rounds, and the feel is like 100 ball bearings riding in gear lubed races, no play and tight.

I'm glad I never fired the Browning, being a classic, NIB with unused period case, I would expect to see over double value vs a clean/fired BLR in 243 Winchester. This gun in never fired/NIB condition is almost NEVER seen, people who bought these mounted a scope, and went out for deer.

Been following this old timers (Hickok45) gun reviews for years. Like how he says he doesn't like the Walther PPQ M2 45ACP because he almost never misses targets........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqQed5169zw

^^ Lol @ Walther never missing, omg I love Hickok45 - he is the man, partially the reason why the Hoppe's stays in my gun cleaning kit and I just use Ballistol on everything. I probably base a lot of my purchasing on his videos and reviews, for example he loved shooting the 10/22 Takedown and was super impressed with it.

The Browning you are correct is super valuable being in a box and never fired, heck that case alone is probably worth half of the guns value itself since its still new, what a gorgeous leather case!

You're not kidding, I just got finished cleaning and lubing 30 years worth of corrosion and grime out and holy friggin crap with this Italian pistol - the slide racks smoother than my 6 year old Taurus 1911, not a single piece loose or rattling, and man it just goes back together so tight, at first when reassembling I was like "am I gonna hurt anything?" but wow, super impressed. I'll post up a pic when I get my walnut grips in, they just shipped yesterday - can't wait to put some rounds through it to "wake it up" a bit and then strip and clean it again.

Yeah, Hickok45 has probably forgotten more about guns then I will ever know.

I've fired several striker fired handguns (mostly Glocks), never found one I was willing to own, the PPQs trigger changed that in an instant.

The take-up (super smooth/no creep), break (like a small glass rod inside the gun shattering at around 4lbs) and reset (around 3/16") is incredible. I've fired semi-autos with several hundred dollar trigger jobs that didn't feel as good as Walthers "out of box" Q trigger.

After 50 rounds, found I was more accurate at 25yds (2" groups) with the unfamiliar Walther vs my Sig 227 (off bench bags). The PPQs has a 4.35 barrel, yet groups like a 6. barrel.

Never thought I would say I found a carry gun "boringly accurate", but that's how it feels.

I had the opportunity to try a PPQ a few years ago and was surprised at how easy it shot. It definitely has a smooth trigger. It's pretty big and clunky though. The lines remind me of a Hi Point.

At one point I was interested in a single stack subcompact and tried the PPS. That's another good shooting gun. It handles very well for being so small. The mag release is kind of screwy though. It is 2 little levers on the bottom of the trigger guard that you pull down. Basically the same as an H&K USP. It would take lots of training to get used to that since I'm ~20ish years familiar with a push button mag release.

Walther tends to make some pretty damn good stuff. Though Gun Tests recently did a comparison (can't remember which Walther, will update if I find the article again) to the new Glock 43 and had nothing but problems with the Walther and didn't recommend it.

If you're not familiar with Gun Tests magazine, it's the Consumer Reports of guns. No ads and in-depth tests.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hicock45 is great. Here's my new EDC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH3tJrK2ma4

Just found the Gun Tests article. It was the Walther CCP that they had problems with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I prefer the big grip feel, love how the DE 50AE feels (I wear XXL gloves).

Hahaha, Hi Point! The official firearm of criminals looking for a cheap gun to throw away during the police chase.

For what it's worth, I hear that Hi Point's customer service is second to none. Which is surprising for a cheap company.

I wouldn't mind having one of their canines.


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The Hi Point is ok as a range/target gun.

The lack of a true slide release (hard slide pull back after mag swap to chamber round), stiff/no detent safety (quick/low light/no look operation is a roll of the dice) and poor brass ejection, firing pin does double duty as ejector :confused: (even after 400 rounds, double the 200 round Hi-Point recommended break-in), all make it a poor self defense choice.


The best customer service in the world means little if it fails to operate quick/correctly in a life or death situation, and regular FTF issues/gritty trigger feel aren't covered. And the SCCY warranty goes one better then Hi-Points, includes free replacement if lost/stolen.

Most who carry avoid guns like Hi-Points, even for range time. Those who carry and train smart, range operate the guns they carry to remain proficient. I would not want a life or death situation after operating the Hi-Point at the range (carrying the Sig 227, need a mag swap, then be yanking on the slide wondering why it's not going into battery, totally forgetting the slide release lever).

The need for a bench vise, hammer and drift punch to break down/field strip? Totally retarded.

When your life's at it's Lo-Point, you need a Hi-Point!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCNx0Ql2ZZw

Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating for a Hi Point as a self defense weapon. Nor am I in the market for one (other than a carbine might be a fun range toy, or a KelTec Sub 2000).

Glock is my carry gun of choice. And when I can't carry that (clothing choice or where I'm going), it's my NAA mini revolver as a "better than harsh words" option.

Too bad we're all scattered around the country. It would be fun to do an X gathering at a range.

Yeah, a range day get together would be fun.

I had a good laugh reading the "Hi-Points are awesome" fanboy responses to the above video. Some claim to range the gun every weekend for years.

Don't understand the false economics of a monthly ammo bill that exceeds the Hi-Point price! Buy a $150 gun, then spend over $2000 a year to feed it???

TiAg - thanks to your recommendation I will be looking at a Walther PPQ - local gun dealer by me has the PPQ 9mm with 2 15 round mags, new in hardshell box for $600 out the door.

I decided instead of getting another handgun shooting .45 or .357 like I already have (or the .22LR in the Beretta which doubles as ammo for my Ruger 10/22), would do me well to get a nice 9mm where the ammo is super cheap and would be great as a carry gun if I can ever move out of NJ.

I can send you the Armslist links if you want to offer some opinions since you've shot it - I also saw the DB9 FS by Diamondback that he also sells for about $350, looks like a nice Full size 9mm pistol but to be honest I don't know much about Diamondback whereas I know Walther is a tried and tested name.

I just want a handgun that has the NJ max of 15 rounds capacity LOL, and the 9mm bulk ammo price point is amazing per round compared to .45 or .357 (with the latter pushing 45-50 cents per quality round)

If you're looking for a carry gun, the PPQ is probably going to be too big to conceal well. Unless you're going to open carry or don't care if your gun prints on your shirt, that is.

I'd look to something smaller like a Glock 19, Glock 26, Sig 229, or Sig M11. The Smith & Wesson M&P series and Springfield XD series also come in compact sizes that are better for concealed carry.

Definitely not looking for a carry gun currently. I already have a Taurus 605SS that would be a good carry gun if I move out of NJ (we can't get CCW here as we are pretty much "no issue" state) - I'm also not a hugely tall guy at 5'7" so it would work for me for the time being, if I moved into another state I'd get a dedicated carry gun down there. For now I'm stuck.

I was looking for something maybe slightly different than what I have currently as far as handguns - although I am considering another 1911 in 9mm too since I just love the timeless look of the 1911:
-Taurus 605SS (.357 Mag 5-shot, 3" barrel)
-Taurus PT1911SS (.45ACP, stainless)
-Beretta Model 102 (This is my classic, .22LR, 6" barrel, Polished blued finish) - pending ownership as its at my wifes grandfathers until my newest PPP is ready for pickup :D

I'd need to get a PPP but since my Beretta requires one, I may as well apply for 2 at the same time, and purchase a new gun at the same time.

Then TiAg got to talking about the Walthers, and I saw my local store on Armslist selling the following (I'm sure he can get others just noting what he has in stock)

-Diamondback DB9-FS Black - $350 (I'm not a huge fan of the large grip/magazine area on this gun, although the warranty is great and the dealer says that they shoot awesome)
-Walther PPQ-M2 9mm - $599
-Walther PK-.380 - $399 (large difference from PPQ price-wise, the PK looks real nice!)
-Rock Island 1911A1 9mm - $525 - again I really like 1911's so I would consider another one in 9mm
-Taurus JUDGE - $500 - Always wanted one of these, like a hand cannon, I don't care if this would be my only gun taking the ammo, it shoots friggin .410 shells
-Sig Sauer SP2022 9mm - $500
-Cold Gold Cup Trophy 1911 in .22LR - $400 - again, I like 1911's and I have a ton of .22LR and 2 other guns shooting it so I would consider it for sure for the price

Or I could just apply for one PPP for the Beretta, and buy myself another rifle, I looked at the S&W M&P 15-22 AR-style rifle shooting .22, could be had for $400 out the door all day. So I'd probably lean towards one of the 3 handguns listed above around the $400 range (Walther PK-380, Colt 1911 .22). I also love Glocks and would probably just save for one in the future.

He also has a H&K VP9/LE which I am lusting and drooling over, but the price point just isn't in the cards right now, my dog is going through some health issues which we have to pay for first.

Sorry to hear about your pup! I hope he pulls through ok.

Here's my 2 cents on your list (not that you asked ;)).

I know you already have a Taurus, but I'd skip that brand. Their quality is hit and miss. Also, if you weren't aware, they have a class action settlement. I'm not sure if yours is caught up in it. Plus, I've seen reports of them throwing up their hands on defective revolvers and just s telling their customers "sorry, it can't be fixed". With all that going against them, I'd avoid it.

If you want a 1911, get it in .45ACP. There's something weird about a 1911 in any other caliber. I'm like you - I love the 1911. John Browning's finest work...I've got two of 'em. An older Kimber (before their quality went downhill) and a stainless Sig GSR. They're my favorites to shoot.

Rock Island makes a pretty good entry level 1911, like you mentioned. I'd also look at Springfield Armory. The Range Officer (RO) model has some nice upgrades for a reasonable price. Ruger also makes a nice stainless 1911 for about $700, which is a pretty good price for a quality gun.

And if you're interested in a Sig, take a look at the P320. It's their new striker fired pistol and should be about the same price as the 2022.

I do REALLY appreciate the input. I'll definitely look into the Taurus class action settlement and see what was going on - good news was that both my Taurus guns were gifts so I'm not really out much money on them - when I stripped and cleaned both of them recently all the actions seemed smooth and haven't had issues with either of them yet, so I'm hoping I got a pair of good guns.

EDIT: Looked up the class action, does not affect the 1911's or the revolvers as far as I can tell.

Good call on the Rock Island, I probably will consider them if I get another 1911, and yes, I'll probably get another .45ACP - easier for me to get another .45 when I already have one and can just buy bulk ammunition for 2 guns.

I agree, the PPQ is too large for MOST to C Carry.

I'm 6'1", 225 lbs and large hands (over 8.5" wrist to middle finger tip). I find the compacts too small (they don't point naturally due to small grip/large hands, and the shorter sight radius of the smaller slides require more attention to putting sites on target).

Also LOVE the long range accuracy of a full size (Those 50yd to 80 yd shots in Hickok45 PPQ vid are IMPOSSIBLE with a compact, and needed in an "active shooter" situation)

Being a tall, not too heavy person, I find the full size service duty Sig 227 with IWB holster works well (I dress "loose", XXL shirts, 38 waist pants/jeans/cargo shorts (could wear XL shirts & 36 waist but go larger for IWB holster)).

When I suit up (Italian suits, tighter fit), I use a Bianchi shoulder holster under the jacket. My tailor has told me I'm not the only one getting fitted with a shoulder holster. Gotta love Texas!

I stay away from the lounge, generally, but saw RB's popcorn and thought I'd chime in on with one -
We were in Fort Worth for the opening weekend of the stock show in January and got to watch the horses/wagons parade. They had a bit of a flag controversy, but the Texas Republic still honors its origins : a couple of groups were carrying the Gonzales flag - in 1836?, it was a handmade flag by local ladies for the militiamen who opposed the Mexican Army's attempt to retrieve the cannon [6 or 9 pounder] the militia had been given to help ward off Comanches. Its a cannon on a plain background with the phrase, as best I recall, "Come and Get It". The Mexican Army didn't. ..... God Bless Texas!

As for carry, I'm pretty old school, have had a .380 CZ83 for concealed carry and a Sig P226 9mm for at least 20 years. The SIG, in particular, is a mighty fine [and exceptionally accurate] sidearm.

^^Extremely jealous of you TX and GA folks - Riggo, looked like this?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ake_It.svg.png

If I was looking at 9mm handguns, I would at least look into this......

Wilson Combat | Beretta 92G Brigadier Tactical

Pricey, but an AWESOME gun for the money. Wilson will do a trigger job during build for $100 more.

A campus carry law, allowing concealed carry on college campuses, is advancing through the legislature here in GA. It does not allow carry in residential housing areas, and fraternities and sororities can still ban them on premises. But, it would allow it in other areas, or in your car, all of which is currently illegal.

When I was in college (in GA), I kept my shotgun, and a borrowed 30-30, under my bed in my dorm. The only thing anyone ever said was "when do we get venison", or, my favorite "when can we eat that turkey".

Funny how hysterical the fear has become.

Jacket, from what I hear, your alma mater now won't so much as let guy-type students even talk to distaff yeller jackets, on fear of expulsion on 'sexual harassment' grounds ... talk about hysterical fears .......

Yeah, even with open carry in TX the last few months, some businesses STILL don't allow C carry (CVS, Chipotle, Whataburger....). These retarded corps bow to the "perceived" liberal feeling of fewer guns = less gun violence. Haven't set foot in any of them after that position was taken.

Plenty of other places willing to take my money, that actually support the peoples 2nd Amendment.

Yeah but you've still got a 10 mile long pull with that Beretta 92 trigger. :nanana:

:rofl: That's why I mentioned the Wilson Combat trigger job. I carried a 92FS for over 20 yrs, never liked the trigger that much.

That might be why the Walther PPQ trigger blew my mind. I'm not happy with the Sig 227 trigger any more, not as crisp on break (and too far back for my big hands), and longer reset (not as quick on double/triple taps). More feedback feel on the PPQ trigger reset too!

The sites are set EXACTLY where I like them (6 o'clock), hit right where I expected (never had to adjust point of aim for site position).

Damn! Now I need the PPQ.

Getting stupid. I have a daughter there who is a senior, and thinks the way they are dealing with some things is out of control.

Glad to hear things are moving in the right direction on your college campuses although as you mentioned, way off from being perfect. What nowadays with all the "safe spaces" and microaggressions - Sigh.

ALL college women should be proficient in firearms and carry for self protection. Way too many female victims out there nowadays. Heard a dumb progressive liberal idiot broad tell me one time when I suggested the same thing - "Yeah sure if someone was trying to rape me at gunpoint and I reached into my purse to get my gun if I had one they'd shoot me in the head and I can't defend myself if I'm dead" - Sigh #2.

I'm with TiAg, if I lived in a state that allowed open/concealed carry I would be frequenting the businesses who do not advertise their sitting duck status to would be criminals.

We got a Nebraska Furniture Mart in Plano last year, HUGE operation that deals in home furnishings/electronics. The place is bigger then AT&T stadium (Cowboys). Great prices.

Refuse to go there, owned by Berkshire Hathaway Group (Warren Buffett), big supporter of Hillary and donates to the "guns are bad" groups.

Those who choose to support their Constitutional rights, need to stop funding those who don't.

Even bought a gift NRA membership for Mike Blumberg (his address is available online) when I renewed my membership. Thought it would be a funny way to donate toward the cause!

Hope Mikey likes his NRA member packet/card/hat!

I hunted a bit (quite a bit) in college, so I had long guns. Back then, a hand gun wouldn't have been on my mind.

My daughter had several of her sorority sisters get handguns over Christmas break, and a few also got Weapons Carry Licenses.

She is are up with getting her license. She graduates in May, and will be traveling a lot, and wants to become proficient with a firearm by then, so that she can get herself one with her first "real" post-graduation paycheck.

I have told I wouldn't get one before that, because she lives on campus, so it's illegal for her to have it right now. Looks like that will change in July, but she'll be out by then.

Just a few observations on watching half the "Guns and America" episode of CBS Sunday Morning today - I didn't get to watch the first half as I slept in a bit but apparently they were interviewing the NRA in one of the beginning segments

-Segment on Australia - WOW. They have no clue how much our murder rates have gone down as gun ownership has gone up, they just get sound bytes from news when we have a headline shooting like Sandy Hook, etc. If they as citizens are comfortable with the gun laws in their country, good for them. But mandating that a citizen has to lock up their ammo and guns in separate safes, as well as the countless restrictions on ownership, not much to add.

-Segment on "Kids shooting kids" - Centered around a guy in his 40s who shot and killed his sister when he was 8-10 years old. Verbatim this is how he explained it: "I found the gun, and pointed it out near the door/window, and it just accidentally went off, and my sister was walking in front of the door at that time and she was hit" - Didn't catch where he was from but obvious his parents never taught ownership and responsibility with a firearm at a young age. I don't care if he was a kid at the time, don't go on national television and say a gun accidentally went off. Admit you were an idiot and didn't respect the rule of handling a firearm which is don't put your finger inside the trigger guard unless you are ready to pull it, and always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Sorry that his sister was killed, but it was his fault, and not the fact he had a gun in the home.

-Segment on the Old West and family in Wyoming - best segment I saw, family shooting with their kids and loved ones, ALL of them understand safe firearms handling and don't treat it like a toy. Little 5 year old girl learning safe handling, and how to shoot properly, guarantee there are no "accidental shootings" around there because the kids there are all taught SAFETY at a young age, the "mystique and curiosity" of guns is non-existent because they are not hidden away and the children know they are not toys.

-Segment on the reporter and her BF who were gunned down last year on live TV - parents are pulling a Gabby Giffords, going around campaigning with the likes of Bloomberg I'm sure. The report admitted that the person who gunned them down, passed a NICS check and purchased his weapon legally. Yet they literally said verbatim the Obama taglines "Yes it may not have saved our daughter, but if we could only save one life, by passing universal background checks and closing the gun show loophole" - I still dont know what that means, at every gun show I've been to, I can't just walk in with cash and leave with a gun on the same day with no NICS check. Even more so if the show is out of state, it obviously has to be sent to a FFL who runs a NICS check.

Besides the segment on how firearms are a part of everyday life in the frontier and plains states, pretty poor reporting but I did not expect much from CBS - and in all fairness it may have been better reporting in the first half of the segment although I doubt very much they portrayed the NRA in a good light.

I do get a serious kick out of people who think just our whole gun debate is between rural vs. urban areas and states. People in NJ, CA, NYC, etc should be teaching their children all aspects of gun safety and taking away the curiosity about guns from a very young age, problem is in our metro areas there are too many people who know nothing about firearm responsibility and/or never had guns in their homes growing up, you can't expect the younger generation to respect what a firearm can do if you never respected it yourself.

There was a great "What Would You Do?" episode a few months back in San Antonio at a gun store, they had an actor playing a disturbed customer and another pair of actors portraying a father buying his 10 year old son an AR-style rifle, looking for reactions from patrons in the store. Basically all of them responded to John Quinones that "if the father teaches his son properly to be safe and responsible and to respect the firearm, no reason he shouldn't buy him anything in the store" - A dad even had his 2 year old daughter on his arms in the store and the mother was very proud to show the host of the show that when she asked her 2 year old "What do we say about Daddys guns honey?" the daughter promptly replied "I am not allowed to touch them" -

It all starts at a young age, especially when it comes to kids and guns. 'll admit that my parents never owned firearms, although my dad always paid his membership to the NRA and supported it. Plenty of times I went hunting with friends and target shooting and since I was young, always learned that guns aren't toys, and only you are responsible for pulling the trigger.

The old adage goes, "Leave the shotgun out on the front porch all week on the chair, it can't kill anyone by just sitting there"

Just a few pennies for my thoughts from today -

^ Good Post, RB/J...

Some of my unforgettable/fondest memories are of my maternal Grandfather, (a fookin genius civil engineering and environmental nut before the word environmental was coined), teaching me to shoot his .300 Savage when I was about 8. He had just bought it, was a deer hunter nut and saved his fanny off to buy that long gun, circa 1955.

We did several weekend trips to his cabin on the Mio River in northern lower peninsula of MI, over the next several summers and I learned to shoot that sumbitch...I have his/that gun to this day. :)

My Ol'Man was a WWII paratrooper jockey jumping out of planes in the Aleutian Islands for 4 years, snapping off a few at the Japanese nuts sneaking up onto the islands off Alaska, and he & I spent many an hour on the gun ranges when I was a kid. He was rated Expert, the highest below the burgeoning Sniper gang. I was always OK to good, depending on the day...my Father was a remarkable shooter.

My point is, besides the fond mems, is I have only regard and respect for fire arms, and learned my lessons well, as a kid. I have a few, want more, and careful and prudent gun ownership is a Right and a privilege.

Great mems Dave that you shared, my Grandfather was also a S.Sgt paratrooper, 11th Airborne in WWII in Japan and New Guinea....As I told my wife recently "There is no such thing as an American as 'well you've got enough guns, no need for more" and as the years go by I look forward to investing in a nice gun safe and building a collection worthy of a lifetime of responsible ownership.

Your last phrase was perfect - yes it is a Right to keep and bear arms (thank God for our Bill of Rights), but that Right has to be lawful and respectful, otherwise you lose the PRIVILEGE of having your Right be exercised (i.e. violent offender and your purchasing/ownership status revoked, etc)

Even though I did not grow up with firearms in my personal home, never in a million years would I have thought of a gun as a toy when I was a child, I don't care how young and curious. I was raised by parents who let me know what things were serious to my young life, what things are toys and what things weren't, and that includes what things could hurt/injure/kill people.

Sure you could be curious as a kid to go out on the frozen lake with your buddies as a kid, but how much risk do you take on that ice? How high up the ladder of risk (going farther out, running/jumping on the ice, etc) are you willing to go?

For example the guy yesterday talking about his accidental shooting of his kid sister, well he went up too far on the ladder of risk and fell off, badly.

-Anyone can pick up a gun and wave it around, it won't kill anyone - Rung 1
-Start pointing it at people/objects, it still won't go off, risk goes up - Rung 2
-Finger inside trigger guard while holding and pointing - Rung 3
-Not paying attention to previous rungs with finger inside trigger guard and pulled - Fell off the ladder, Badly.

Gotta love how the liberal media is describing the NY shooting on the 18th, the news anchor here in TX said "he pointed it toward his friend, and it went off".

How many rungs up the ladder was this MORON??? Lets count them.

1) The idiot didn't verify the gun was clear (no mag & chamber empty).

2) The idiot didn't practice basic barrel etiquette (never sweep or point the barrel ANYWHERE other then to the ground or SAFE direction).

3) The idiot put his finger inside the trigger guard of a loaded gun without intent of discharge.

He was standing one rung from the top of the ladder!

Man charged with fatal shooting of 18-year-old friend on Long Island: police | New York's PIX11 / WPIX-TV

Back to the media wording "it went off".

In over 30yrs of having loaded guns in my carry holster, in my vehicles, in instant access safes & in a long gun safe, I have YET to see one that "just went off".

Jeff Cooper's rules would have prevented this...


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So true.

For anyone unaware,,,,,Cooper's Four Rules

I guess all my guns are stupid, they don't know how to "go off".

Literally its hilarious. That poor girl in San Francisco too who got shot by the 4-times paroled illegal immigrant felon is using that as his defense - "I found it sitting on the bench and I picked it up and it went off"

Is there an iPhone like touch switch on guns we don't know about? Almost like butt dialing a gun "by accident?" lol.


TiAg/edogg, gonna pick your brain for some advice on my next pistol purchase since you seem to be the Hickok45 of the forum :) - I think I'm going to get a Glock 30 in .45 and then a pair of 9mm handguns, the Walther PPQM2 being one of them.

Currently I have the Beretta 102 which shares .22LR with my Ruger 10/22, my Taurus 605 which takes .357 and I have a S&W Model 66 I'll get getting within the next year or two so those will share calibers, and my 1911 .45ACP - I want another .45, and then looking at getting a pair of 9mm pistols, as I'm thinking my wife may not find the punch of the .45's not as fun to shoot. However, we are going to take the 1911 soon, if she seems to have fun shooting it, I'll scrap the idea of 9mm altogether for now and keep buying pistols in .45.

PPQM2 is definitely one of the first choices if I went 9mm, also looking into the new Ruger American Pistol (getting great reviews and a lot of gun for the money) or maybe a fuller sized Glock in 9mm.

I know you didn't ask me but I'm going to give you my 2 cents anyway. :)

What's your intended use for the Glock 30? Range toy? Carry gun?

Try shooting the Glock 30 before you buy it. Because it's a double stack .45acp, it's pretty thick. And it's a subcompact so it's pretty short. Those two things combined make it pretty uncomfortable to shoot.

Unless you HAVE to have a .45acp Glock, I'd give a close look at the Glock 26 if you want a compact pistol for defensive carry. It's 9mm so holds a few rounds more and has a thinner grip. And if you add a +1 or +2 round magazine extension, there's enough room for your pinky.

If you want something for the range in .45acp, then take a look at the Glock 21. It's the full size and much more pleasant to shoot. But in .45acp, I really prefer a 1911. The 1911 ergonomics are just perfect for the .45, which can't be matched by other styles.

Today's 9mm defensive ammo is really good. The Federal HST, for example, is fantastic. A lot of police agencies are switching back from .40 S&W to 9mm because the ammo performance has caught up with .40 S&W, 9mm is easier to shoot, and 9mm pistols hold more ammo.

The Ruger American is definitely an intriguing pistol. It's pretty new so there won't be much aftermarket support for it, though (e.g. holsters and magazines). And there isn't proven reliability yet. But being a Ruger, it's probably pretty good.

There are lots of striker fired pistols out now. Sig has the P320, Smith & Wesson makes the M&P series, and Springfield makes the Xd series. The world is your oyster. :)

Edogg, good points.

It comes down to comfort/usage.

I've yet to shoot the Ruger American Pistol, only held it on 2 occasions (one being over the weekend at Bass Pro).

Like the Novak sites, killer units on a pistol in this price range. Didn't like some of the "clues" that point to a poor combination of engineering/manufacturing/inspection/assembly quality, like the trigger safety lever pivot pin (the trigger plastic around the pivot pin hole had been center-punched a few times to displace plastic material to hold the pin in place).

I'm OCD about my carry units, and things like mashed plastic retaining a safety pin bug me.

If I where looking at 9mm handguns, that Wilson Combat Brigadier Tactical 92G I linked would be my "go to".

Wilson Combat actually produces all the "custom" parts, then sends them to Beretta for assembly (this was done to eliminate cost of discarded "standard" parts and excise taxes).

Wilsons Combats 1911s START at over $2500, making the 92G a great deal at less then 1/2 that (I would pay the extra $100 for the WC trigger job, another bargain).

This was supposed to be a Limited Edition production run of 1,000 units. Within a few weeks, all were sold. WC has taken an additional 1,500 orders and is still accepting orders. The gun buyers are taking notice of this exceptional firearm at an awesome price.

Wilson Combat | Beretta 92G Brigadier Tactical

I'm not in the 9mm market, but this gun has me ready to pull my wallet out!

Ewww, seriously?! Something like that would be a deal breaker for me as well. A carry gun has to be 100% - no funkiness allowed.

I'd be interested to see what Gun Tests magazine has to say about the Ruger American. My dad has a subscription...maybe I'll ask him to save that issue for me if they test it.

Unlike other publications like Guns & Ammo or American Rifleman, Gun Tests doesn't pull any punches. If something doesn't work right, they say so. They buy their own equipment to test rather than have something supplied by the manufacturer so they're only beholden to the truth. Kind of like Consumer Reports for guns.

And this is where personal preference comes to play. I can't stand the long Beretta trigger. Even the initial double action pull of the Sig bugs me, which is one reason why I don't carry one.

That's not to say this Wilson-customized Beretta a bad gun. In fact, to the contrary, Wilson Combat can pretty much do no wrong. I just wish that I could afford more than just a few of their 1911 magazines.

Just an example of why it's important to find a range that has a large rental selection and try them out before you buy anything. See if you like it. Granted, the used gun market is pretty strong so if you buy it, try it, and hate it, you'll only be out $50 or so.

Alright edogg I edited my post as was asking both for your input :)

So here's the deal, my in-laws bought a house on the Outer Banks and we will be using it for vacations and what not, extended weekend trips, real nice place, they will eventually retire there, for now, they are working in NJ - my FiL is 70 so he'll be retiring sooner.

So, my local range does offer a non-resident Florida CCW course which would enable me to carry when visiting down in North Carolina (we also have my wifes best friend in Raleigh NC), as well as mD's neck of the woods (Asheville area) which we have been meaning to visit, but its also good for VA, GA (we both love Savannah GA) and obviously Florida.

Part of my reasoning for the Glock 30 is a smaller, reliable .45ACP that I could optionally carry in the future, albeit not regularly.

Now, do I already have a gun I can carry when I get that permit? Yes, my Taurus 605SS (cue the Brazilian junk music) shooting .357 mag should be able to be carried easily. I just was thinking of adding a slightly smaller semi-auto to the mix.

Walther has a few decent pistols out now that are more compact, all in 9mm, the PPS M2, the P99C AS, and the CCP (although that one just looks cheap to me). Again, I'm starting to find the more compact pistols are for the most part in 9mm.

I've always wanted a Glock, one that would be fun to shoot, and yes I am also considering the 21 Gen 4 to add another .45ACP. I just am not confident that I would be able to conceal a full sized duty size gun on the rare times I could if I was down south, I'm 5'7" 185lbs and do not have large hands in the least - which was what had me considering the Glock 30 with a couple Pearce Grip Extensions on the mags - Heck, Hickok45 loves it so you know its fun!

I'm going to look up the other Glocks in 9mm for comparison, but does that kind of help you for what I'm looking for?

As far as the Ruger American goes, yeah it is getting great reviews, great company, made here, good pricing and value, etc, but that is even bigger than a Glock 21 so that would be a strict HD/range gun anyway.

My thought was if I bought a Glock 30 to get over my Glock lust, I could get a Walther PPQ 45 and get over TiAg's lust of the trigger and he sultry descriptions of the PPQ lol!

You and TiAg are definitely helping me for sure, growing up all I knew about was Glocks, 1911's, and Pump actions - the polymer frame market is ridiculously huge in our present time.

Haha no worries. :)

While I'm a bit of a gun snob, for defensive situations I will say that the gun you're carrying is better than the gun you've left at home. :)

In fact, I often carry a NAA mini-revolver for that reason.

The Walther PPS is nice. I rented one of those a while back and enjoyed shooting it. The ambidextrous mag release on the trigger guard will take some training to get used to, but it worked well.

I think it's one of my favorite subcompact, single stack 9mm's. And I liked it a lot better than the new Glock 43.

Avoid the CCP. The Gun Tests magazine which I mentioned previously did a comparison between that and the Glock 43. The CCP was super picky about ammo and did not cycle reliably. Not something you want in a defensive pistol.

Yup, that totally helps and makes sense. Since you want Glock or Walther, I'd suggest the Glock 26 or the Glock 19. The 26 is their subcompact, which is slightly smaller than the 30 and much more manageable. The 19 is their compact, which is easily concealable under a baggy shirt. Both are 9mm.

I don't know the Walther lineup very well but maybe they've got something that's the size of the 26 or 19. The PPS is about the size of the 26 but it's single stack so much slimmer. And the PPQ is big. Maybe they've got something in between, but I don't know.

Or get a 1911 for your .45acp desires. ;) If budget is a consideration, Rock Island makes a decent 1911 for about $500. Or you can get a Springfield for a little more. Tons of good 1911 options.

Then save 9mm for the striker fired guns...

Glad to be of help! :thumbup:

You're right that the plastic guns have taken over. And if you think that market is huge, check out the AR market nowadays. That one is INSANE!

I personally prefer full size "service duty" guns, natural pointers, longer site radius, higher magazine capacity, fills my large hands, better recoil/muzzle flip control, operation levers/releases in intuitive/natural positions. I accept the downside is an increased possibility of "printing" thru cover clothing.

I've shot a variety of Glocks, nice guns, just never had the urge to OWN one.

IMHO, Glocks score a solid "8" (on a scale of 1 to 10) in all aspects a gun can be critiqued. I find myself impressed how Glocks are "all around" 8s in EVERY aspect!

The problem I run into when considering a Glock purchase is, I find another gun has a better "feel" in my hand, or a trigger that's better, or groups tighter, of feels better during double/triple taps, or points better.

RB, I would run a PPQ before proceeding.

I'm not a polymer/striker fire guy, but the Walther blew my mind. I would expect to pay a gunsmith half the cost of the gun to get the trigger that good. The insane accuracy is icing on the cake.

Yeah, some people don't like the ergonomics of the grip angle, slide release, and such. For example, my dad shoots a lot better with a Sig than he does with a Glock. And while I do well with a Glock, I have a hard time with the Sig in that my thumb always holds down the slide release so it doesn't lock back when the mag is empty.

Funny thing, though...my dad went on a Glock buying spree about 15 years ago and basically bought one of each model available at the time. Then he recently decided he wanted a new Glock 19 to carry so bought one of those and had it tricked out (titanium parts and hard chromed slide & barrel)...and never carries it because he can't shoot it as well as his P228 or M11.

That's why it's important to try before you buy...

I'm one of those who shoot a Sig better then the Glock.

Finding how I shot the PPQ better then the Sig was unexpected.

Seems the center-punched/displaced plastic retention of the trigger safety lever pin was not just on the two Rugers I handled........

And TiAg thanks for your help as well - Hickok45 was even like "wow the PPQ its hard to miss with it!" in the video I saw, looked to be such a smooth and fun to shoot pistol.

Yeah, the PPQ is a "soft shooter" in 45acp.

Same bore axis as the Sig 227, yet less felt recoil shooting identical rounds (bullet weight/charge grain count).

One of the editors for a gun mag went to the Walther PPQ press release with a stitched injury on shooting hand. Walter provided a WIDE range of current market 45acp semi-autos to shoot "back to back" with the PPQ.
The writer found he could fire the PPQ with the least discomfort.

I've been "beating the bushes" here in TX to find a Beretta and/or Wilson Combat sponsored range event where the WC BT 92G Custom will be available for public trial. None of my contacts in the TX gun community own one, yet EVERYONE I talk to wants to shoot it!

I'd love to beat the bushes for you in NJ but it won't do much good LOL

The PPQ in .45 sounds like a great range gun and HD gun - definitely keeping it on my list but since it's full sized I'm going to hold both it and the Glock 21 at my dealer and see if i can test fire at the range to see which I like better

EDIT: My local range rents the following at $20 per hour, I'll be test driving a couple of these and not have to worry about NJ's asinine transport laws for the day:

-Glock 21, 30, 43, 26, 17, 19
-Walther PPQ 9mm
-HK VP9 (also considered if I went to 9mm)

Your range has some good rental options! Give them a whirl and let us know what you think.

Really!

Like the PA carry permit woman who missed her exit in PA, drove across the bridge into NJ, did a "U" turn that attracted the attention of NJ "finest".

The NJ court threw the book at her for transporting a gun in NJ. Jail time for crossing a bridge!

The cops, judge and county prosecutor should be put in jail for violation of 2nd Amendment rights.

^Will do!

We have a lovely 15rd magazine cap in NJ, so the G17 is out of the question for my own purchase - G19 is the classic full sized 9mm and meets our max, I would be ok with it as a home gun but prob not able to CC it if I wanted, nor the G21.

Really interested to hold the G26/G43/G30 at the range and in person, to see how they fit in my hand.

Way I see it is this - a compact Glock would be G30 vs G30S if I am sticking with .45ACP, G30S may fit my hands better (I already have small hands) and I have the option to go Plus 1 or more if wanted in capacity - in 9mm I'll compare the G26 vs. the G43, although I am finding that G36's and G26's are harder to find.

A good quote I read on another forum is that you can always make a Glock a bit bigger but you can never decrease its size, which makes sense. Maybe I'll just have to buy a smaller and a full sized partner Glock, and the Walther PPQ down the line as a fun target gun. My wife may enjoy shooting the 9mm better as well, so

Its an election year, I feel I have many things to purchase this year LOL. And only so much time that our current non-2A supporting governor is in office left, and if you know anything about Jersey, it will never get any better than it is now (and its pretty bad) - only going to get worse. He veto'ed a 10 rd cap on magazines, but other than that we have not increased 2A freedoms at all in 6 years.

I've carried my Glock 23 (same gun as the 19 but in .40s&w). It hides pretty well under a baggy shirt but the grip can definitely print.

It's a balance of shooting comfort and concealability. The 19 is a good compromise if you don't mind potentially printing.

On that subject, people are oblivious. The only people who will notice are follow shooters who look for such a thing.


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^Just updating Edogg but after going over the S&W M&P lines, XDMod2 lines, and what you get with your gun, I think we most likely will be going with a his/hers 19 & 26 Glock Gen 4 combo, just need to hold them both in the store to confirm but with the small backstrap included now, the gun should fit my hands and hers well - We'll have plenty of mags to shoot with, ability to carry a higher cap mag as a backup if carrying the 26, and the 9mm ammo price point is hard to beat -

Including 3 mags from the factory really sells the value of the Glocks for me in addition to their reliability, the XD's come with 2 mags, one standard cap and one high cap, the M&Pc's I think just come with 2 low cap mags, and I'm still not sold on the triangular pinky rest on the M&Pc's. Once you get a third mag for the S&W/Springfield's you are basically at the 19 and 26 price point.

The only 9mm I am still kind of considering was that PPS M2, however as its a single stack I don't know if its fair to compare to something like the G26 (and as a southpaw I really appreciate an ami-mag release if I'm shooting it) I've noticed a lot of people willing to forgo capacity in a semi in order to shed a bit of weight and thickness, and once you start getting into single stacks, IMO I already have a .357 shooting 5 if I wanted low capacity with high firepower :)

I agree that if I go for another .45ACP pistol down the line, maybe that would be something to splurge on a PPQ 45 for - or just get myself a nicer 1911 :)

Sounds like you're on the right track! :thumbup:

Since you're a lefty, look into adding an ambidextrous magazine release. Cylinder & Slide makes one and there might be others on the market.

There's a reason why Glocks are so popular. They're a good value and reliable. That's not to say the other polymer guns are a bad pick, but Glock really changed the game and has stayed on top for the reasons you're finding. Another reason is that they're pretty easy to work on yourself. Glock sells a punch ("armorers tool") which is pretty much the only tool you need. I've swapped out my slide release levers and it's a 1 minute switch.

BTW, the Glock 19 mags will fit into the Glock 26. So you can carry the 26 with a +1 mag extension to get some extra pinky space and stay small. And have an extra 19 mag with 15 rounds. (ETA: Just reread your post and realized it sounds like you know this already!ouch:)

Magazine prices can vary a lot. For practice, there are some cheap aftermarket Korean mags that work pretty well. But for carry, it's possible to find deals on factory magazines. When it comes to finding gun and ammo deals, here are some good resources: slickguns.com, gunbot.net, and ammoseek.com.

^Thanks man and yes the 19/26 combo was definitely what I was thinking, being able to carry a 26 with a 19 mag as a backup :)

Ease of disassembly, cleaning, takedown, and reliability are why I'm sold on the Glocks. Just going to shoot one at the range to be sure before I start making the investment, but I can't see why I wouldn't love them (and my wife as well)

The Gen4 version is also the only Glock I personally would buy for sure because of the ability to swap mag release button to the other side for us southpaws, and the small backstrap being installed from factory (from what I know, the Gen4 comes with the shape of the "SF" on the Gen3's, and larger backstraps for the people with bigger hands if they want to swap out)

And I'm with you on mags - I'm one of those OEM or nothing kind of guys when it comes to mags so I definitely would stick to Glock's - but if each of them is coming with 3, more than enough to get me started, even if only shooting one of them I could bring all 6 mags as backup - Get one of those nice UpLula loaders and I'll be set. Looking forward to cheap 9mm ammo as well.

:thumbup:

UpLulas are for pansies! Build up those thumb callouses, Sally! :nanana:

Callouses are built up for sure - they just look cool and I just watch my boy Hickok45 have such speed with it lol! I definitely need one (baby lula for .22LR) for the Beretta mags though

Truthfully, I took a defensive handgun class and shot about 600 rounds over the weekend (or was it 1000? Either way, it was a lot of shooting). Toward the end of the class, my thumb started to hurt a little but what hurt worse was my middle finger from being right underneath the trigger guard.

There were a few people in the class who used the UpLula and even at the end of the class, I was still able to load my magazines faster by hand. They liked the tool, but I didn't see much value in it. Maybe it's because I've loaded magazines for 25 years and can do it blindfolded so it's second nature...dunno.

Glock includes a mag loader. It's pretty helpful for loading the last round of the mag, but that's about all it's good for. Some people will tell you that Glock mags are actually designed to load at -1 capacity. It's hard to seat a completely full mag into the pistol with the slide closed. And that loading that last round into the mag can be a real bitch.

^^Well I guess I'll be manly and just load by hand and use the Glock loader for the last round if its tough - but yeah I've read that new Glock mags needed to be filled to capacity and left like that to stretch the springs since they are so tight from factory

:)

Yeah, shoot a Glock enough and you get Glock knuckle lol!

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...d/8581978c.jpg

Ouch!!! That's worse than mine was.


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Every time I think Shillary can't be a bigger POS anti-2nd Amendment scumbag, she opens her mouth.

Her latest "bully pulpit" comment......."gun manufacturer rights and immunity from liability against the parents of the children killed at Sandy Hook". She expects the gun manufacturers to pay millions of dollars for every child killed.:rolleyes:

She stands on the graves of dead children and spews BS. Anyone who disagrees is attacked for "not caring" about dead children.

The guns used at Sandy Hook functioned correctly and "as engineered/designed".

How the hell are the gun manufacturers responsible for the deaths?

If I get hit by a car operated by a crazy driver wanting to kill people, can I hold the vehicle manufacturer liable? If I get my head split by an asshole with a baseball bat can I sue the manufacturer? If I cut my finger off with a power tool due to incorrect operation can I sue the manufacturer? That's the same logic!

Am I missing something here???

^^No you're not but i feel like I'm taking crazy pills. She's trying to use that point because she is scared shitless she is going to lose nomination to Bernie. Been saying for about a year now that the exact same thing will happen as it did in 2008 - she underestimated Obama and over time he wore away at her and the people flocked to him in droves. Progressives are doing same for Bernie. And as much as I can't stand his policies, he does believe in the 2nd Amendment from everything I've read and heard - he doesnt pander on gun rights in order to get more votes, he's having no problem doing so from a state which has constitutional carry.

I just posted on The Hill's link the same thing - When people get shot unintentionally its the defect of the person and not the manufacturer. Shes a friggin idiot.

No other way to advance their agenda than to litigate and sue the gun business, out of business. "But these people lost their children" - Yes and by no fault of the gun makers. I'm sure the Lanza's have plenty of lawsuits that have bankrupted the family after Sandy Hook

Rabble rabble Rabble - people are dead we deserve money!!!!

Spent the past week in Tuskaloosa Alabama (attended the CEOs nieces wedding).

I came to find out ALL the men in the wedding party (groom included) were C Carrying at the rehearsal dinner. Around 1/2 the men were packing at the wedding/reception, a few were even instructors for a large private tactical operations company (got business cards and was told to call them if I want serious handgun tactical instruction at a discount price).

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one that feels safer knowing there are dozens of C Carry citizens around me in public.

With all of the out of work machinists and engineers banning guns would only create more organized crime.

That thought has crossed my mind.

Being an Aerospace Manufacturing Engineer (Mechanical Engineering degree), with over 30yrs of experience in investment castings/3,4 & 5 axis machining/heat treating and metallurgy, the knowledge base is there.

Fully functional UniGraphics CAD workstation on my laptop too!

Sidebar; what do you think of 3d printing a custom camshaft in plastic(compensating for thermal expansion of the metal by a factor of the alloy), adding feeders and troughs to it, submerging in in silica/plaster mix(seen it used before and is cheap), burning out the plastic and filling the cavity with 1 and a half original camshaft material. The end results I've seen for small parts have been pretty good with home level gear these days.

That would be a lot of effort resulting in a low quality cam.

Machining a cam from solid steel bar stock would be less effort, and result in a higher quality cam.

I worked for a machine shop in Florida years ago, we provided cam blanks to Roush Engineering (machined, heat treated/carburized, ready to grind bearing surfaces/lobes).

Those cam blank were 8620 steel.

I sure would feel a lot safer.

UNFRIGGINBELIEVABLE!!!!!

Sandy Hook Families Will Now Be Allowed to Sue Remington | The Daily Sheeple

The "anti gun" goons are going to abolish the 2nd amendment by bankrupting gun manufacturers.

^I am also outraged about that - still steaming about it too.

Did you also hear about Thrillary's "25% gun tax?"
I cannot stand most all of Bernie's policies or free stuff mantra, but he does make it quite clear that Vermont having constitutional carry and the most constitutional gun laws (i.e. not many) in the nation has nothing to do with gun violence as a whole - he also voted against the frivolous suits previously, but I'm sure in an election year he will start to retract that message and start to go over to the Bloomberg/Clinton side

Honestly the only thing something like that is doing is driving more sales. When I read that article I contacted my FFL and told them I'll definitely be purchasing an AR-15 this year, most likely the Ruger AR-556 or the Colt Expanse M4


Yes lets allow lawsuits for a criminals actions against a manufacturer of a gun - probably the most idiotic thing I've ever heard - The Sandy Hook families really just want to get paid at any cost don't they? Considering half the Lanza's are dead and most likely bankrupted a month after the murders, I don't know what's more astonishing, the thought of suing a manufacturer of a product that worked as intended and without defect, or the fact that this many years later these parents are so driven to get paid at any cost that all principles are out the window?

Did the Colorado shooter victims also sue the maker of the guns used? Did the Ft Hood shooters victims families also sue the maker of the weapons used? Did the San Bernadino victims families also go on a money hunt from gun makers?

Something is seriously wrong up there in Connecticut, I am seriously getting as far away from this DC-Boston metropolis hell hole of progressive thought very soon.

Worth noting, the judge who ruled this case will proceed is an Obama appointee.

We need to round up all these anti-Constitution leaders/judges, and give them a one-way ticket out of the US. These citizens are nothing more then traitors.

^You mean like that anti-Heller wackbag Merrick Garland - "Boo hoo just give him a chance and hear him out hes so moderate"

Flush him down the toilet, the R's better hold their line on this - There is no obligation to hold hearings on judges in the Constitution. If Barry wanted a vote so bad, he should have nominated another Scalia.

It's perfect poetic justice that Garland oversaw the DC court (Obama appointee AGAIN), and ruled the government has NO time requirement to destroy personal info on background checks for gun purchases. When the background check bill became law it stated "personal info must be destroyed", without any provision regarding time-frame/deadline.

The Senate "has to review" a supreme court nominee, just no definitive deadline the Senate must act.

Suck a bag of d!cks, Garland.

Next time someone is injured in a car accident, they should sue the auto manufacturer. And if they're hit by a drunk driver, they should sue the company who made the alcohol. Because it's the company's fault that someone misused the item which they manufacture, right?

ETA: I'm being sarcastic, in case that isn't clear...

This should have had Obama booted from the Oval Office years ago....

You are being redirected...

When the truth doesn't back up his lies, he fires all the truth tellers.

Obama has fired over 200 intel officials because they were relaying FACTS. Can't have that when you're a bullshitter!

^Quite crystal clear and I've said both already to numerous people - there is NO difference! Gun shop owners are supposed to use judgement as well in addition to a NICS check at point of sale

Adam Lanza STOLE his MOTHER'S gun and she was a lawful owner, do people understand the precedent? He was a CRIMINAL by stealing that gun and committing murder with it.

So a criminal gangbanger shoots down a young boy in a neighborhood, since a CRIMINAL committed murder with a gun, all those victims families are now able to sue the manufacturer of a gun because it was used in a felony?

If you're speeding down a road and kill someone on a hit and run, I guess that victims family should sue the maker of your car?

Yes to suck a bag of dicks to Garland - however I will disagree with your line in bold - there is no deadline that the Senate must act, AND there is no obligation to review any nominee. They do not have to review any nominee at all.

Per verbatim on Article II Section II of the Constitution:
He (the President) shall have the Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two-thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Councils, Judges of the supreme Court

"By and With the Advice and Consent" means just that. In this case the Senate's advice was already given - "Don't bother" -

The Framers intended appointments by the Executive Branch to have the check and balance of being approved by the Senate - the point was that the Senate should work TOGETHER with the President to have a nomination which would be consented to appointment.

For far too many decades it has been a President vs Senate situation, where the President does no seek advice from the Senate at all on nominees, just names whoever they want, and throws the ball in the Senate's court. Not how it was intended to work.

I get such a laugh out of the "do your job" crowd. And I just pull Harry Reid up on Youtube from 2005 which is wonderful as he quotes verbatim "The Constitution does not impose an obligation from the Senate to hold hearings or take up a nomination" - he was right back then, but sings a different tune now.

The History of Now, as one of my favorite radio hosts has coined the phrase that the progressives use in their logic....

Good point, no "advise and consent" from Senate went into the Garland Obama pic. The Senate needs to just say no to Garland, and instruct Obama to pic again, with Senate input on selection.

^^Exactly. They don't even have to say no they can just never take up a vote at all on it - if he really cares about appointing a nominee to the Court he should have nominated a Scalia or took their advice which was don't bother in an election year as has been the tradition since the 60's.

Just because someone has been "nominated" its not like there is a queue for the Senate to do something with it - if they don't take up Garland and say the next President nominates someone else the Senate can take up a vote if they like that nominee and no one will ever have heard of Garland by them.

It's funny to hear the spin as if there is some sort of ultimatum to do something with Garland even if a new President made another nominee - he should just go back to whining about DC v Heller and get on with his life

Tennessee becomes the 10th state to approve campus carry.....

Tennessee Approves Guns On College Campuses | ThinkProgress

This will do much more to protect students the declaring them "gun free" zones (AKA "unarmed victim" zones to those with harmful intent!).

Looks like rape rates at UTenn and Liberty will be dropping like fire next year! If I knew as an unbenknownst rapist I might be shot attempting my act I probably would think twice

RB, you are forgetting that 'rape,' as defined on post-modern American campuses, has nothing to do with the traditional/legal definition of rape. It now reaches post-consensual coitus female 'regret', so on-campus carry won't effect on campus 'sexual assault' stats at all....

Yeah, totally retarded!

We just had a robbery/rape/murder at UT Arlington (TX) last month.

The police "stepped up" presence on campus to make all the stupid sheep "feel" safe.

I find it telling how almost ALL mass shooting (I believe all but 2 in the last 50 yrs) have been in "gun free" zones, with almost ALL the shooters being liberal/democrat/lefty idiots. Unprovoked gun homicides share the same libtard shooter MO.

These are the same groups that want to abolish/limit the 2nd Amendment.

Yet to hear of an NRA member conservative republican going on a shooting spree, yet the democratic party blames the NRA for all the gun violence.

And I just ordered another 200 rounds of .45ACP for $21/box shipped since I had a coupon code to burn at CTD and needed another Plano box anyway (Fiocchi ships their range packs in Plano boxes, great for storage)

One of my local ranges is having "Glock weekend" in 2 weeks and I'll be there probably not long after they open and do some test driving of the 19 and 26 for my first 9mm purchase - discounts for non-members and members, free demos, and a raffle for a new Glock (not sure which one or if its winners choice) - should be lots of fun! I'll try to take some pics when I go.

We could turn this thread title into "Firearms ChitChat/What Did You Do With Your Arsenal Today?" topic LOL

I will be heading to Bass Pro Grapevine to pick up 200rds of 45acp tomorrow.

Going out to Elm Fork range with the neighbor who has the PPQ 45.

Will be doing more back to back shooting of Walther PPQ vs Sig Sauer 227.

Want to make sure I still shoot the PPQ better before purchasing.

Looking forward to reading your opins of both.
Shoot safely...
GL, mD

I have no idea how the citizens of California stay in that state.

Between Prop 47 releasing THOUSANDS of criminals onto the streets, sanctuary cities and Lt Governor Newsom banning responsible citizens from owning/carrying firearms, it's become "open season" for crime!

Hope all those liberal California lawmakers/politicians like the feeling of Patriotic American citizens blood on their hands.

Newsom is pandering with a phony gun control measure | The Sacramento Bee

^^Looking forward to it as well - I want to add another 45ACP to the stable, the Sig 320 45 caught my eye because of the modular system for the fit, and the price is right - they are hard to come by - however, with all your praise of the PPQ I really think that would be the right 45 for me maybe as an election day present to myself :rofl::rofl:

Looking forward to the review...

Got the ammo, heading out Fri morning to Elm Fork.

Check out how many BASIC gun safety rules are violated in this vid, by a gun shop employee and cop no less......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsecTFkxWwk

Omgggg he shot off his hand 20 times before actually shooting it off LMAO - and had it pointed at the other customers too jesus what an idiot

I still practice that even after I set my firearm down if I pick it up again I always do a safety check - just good habit after all these years -

I guess the better question is why was the firearm put away in the cabinet without being sure of being completely unloaded? Strike 1 - store clerk doesnt check weapon for safety - Strike 2 - Officer doesnt safety check and keep muzzle pointed in safe direction Strike 3 lol

:wow: ... :rolleyes:
What a couple of fookin idiots.

Interesting read & stats on TX gun ownership, from the NewYawkTimes of all places...
Yeah, I read the NYTimes every day, (along with the WSJ), but for their writers and articles, not their OpEd page. :)

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/12/us...ef=todayspaper

Just breezed through and read it - Good for Tennessee and Florida and Washington state, surprised more permit holders than TX!

I'm still of the mind that women and especially my generation's women and younger generation are our 2A future - the more women into shooting and firearms the better our future odds will be - the stigma of stereotypical white guys and/or country boys (typical progressive talking point) are the only people into firearms needs to be flipped by the wayside - just my .02

^ +1 ...
A dozen women members of our golf club took the class and got their NC CWP; some carry all the time. These women are 60-80 yrs old. :)
GL, mD

I love this gun debate video....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84ptFVq22PY

TiAg - you're a Sig guy, have you shot or what do you think of the P320? I like the Compact model and the modular system is a cool idea and as well being able to swap from a Compact to a Subcompact depending on what you want to carry that day, etc -

I got to shoot the P320 model line at a Sig sponsored event last spring. Really liked it (classic Sig 5 point safety system and slide cycle striker pre-load), the compact model with the large grip installed was on the small side for my taste. I only got to shoot the 9mm at that time, but there was talk of the P320 being available in 357Sig (think 9mm on steroids) and 45acp sometime in the future.

Really hard to make a bad choice in the entire Sig Sauer model line, if you feel comfortable with the controls, and are able to handle the recoil of selected caliber, no "bad choices" exist. Sigs are pricey, but you get a weapon that any knowledgeable/Sig control familiar gun owner would carry into the worst combat situations. If I get access to another Sig event, and the 357Sig & 45acp P320 is available, I will attend.

Got to Elm Fork with the Sig P227 & Walther PPQ 45acp, 300 rounds and a sore wrist later, the Walther will be my new CC weapon (once purchased).

The Walther has less felt recoil (polymer frame absorbing some force?) but SLIGHTLY more muzzle flip (lighter/less mass vs P227). These two guns share a near identical bore axis, so that's not it

EVERY striker fire gun manufacturer need to use the PPQ trigger as a benchmark for trigger design, it's that good. Found I was faster/more comfortable with the PPQ at 2 round center mass twice (two silhouette targets, 20 ft distance/4 ft apart). That I've done the draw/double tap double target drill a few 100 times with the P227, and it was FIRST TIME with a PPQ had me scratching my head! The PPQs more intuitive trigger and lower mass (less time from holster to first shot) more then made up for the added muzzle flip.

Make no mistake, the Sig would be my gun of choice to taking into a combat zone for an extended period of time, but I like the Walther for everyday CC/self defense better.

Wow great review on the PPQ .45! I will put it on my "to buy" list for sure, its a bit big of a pistol for me to be able to carry if I move out of NJ, but probably would be fine in winter - I fell in love with he PPQ after your reviews and Hickok45's videos, and held it in person at my LGS - it was the 9mm version but I am definitely going for the .45 in the future, need something else in the 230 grain to feed besides my 1911 -

The 320 intrigued me in 9mm, although I know its technically "available" in .45, they are literally nowhere to be found - The Compact 320 9mm sells for around the same price as a Glock 19, with one less mag - caveat is, that if you buy one, Sig gives you a 20% off code for their store, and you could buy the Subcompact conversion kit (slightly larger than a Glock 26, 12 round mag) for about $320 shipped and essentially have 2 different guns in 9mm for a little over the price of 1. So that interested me, as well with their grip modules - I like to wrap my hand around and I don't have big hands (Medium in motorcycle gloves), so probably the Medium module that ships with the compact would be sufficient, if I wanted the Small module I would seriously reconsider the 320 since replacement grip modules are $40 apiece, as opposed to the Glocks which come with the smallest frame out of the box and are supplied with the larger backstraps if you need them (Gen 4's)

As a member on the forum said, I guess with a Sig or Glock the answer is always "yes" so if I did go with the 320 in the future I couldn't go wrong - wish the .45ACP was more readily available as the 320 in that caliber must be a really sweet shooter - although I'm sure the 9mm is no slouch.

The more lead I put downrange with the PPQ 45, the more I understand why Guns & Ammo gave it the Gun of the Year award for 2015.

No detectable flaws in ergonomics/design and crazy accuracy.

The PPQ makes a good shooter shoot great.