I agree that the US car makers are drowning in red ink, but the truth is that US car makers are doing a lot better at making reliable cars. We have to keep in mind that the US car makers pump out hundreds of thousands of cars a year while the European manufacturers produce far less. Ironically, the reliability of the Euro cars, and some japanese cars, are being passed by the US manufacturers. That is not to say that the non-US cars are getting worse, not at al, the US manufacturers are just doing better.

That being said, Roger Penske needs to be hired as the next CEO of GM. He turned Detroit Diesel around in under 5 years, from a 3% market share when GM owned them to a 30% share, and he did it by competing with Cummins!

I've posted this many times, maybe it should be a sticky

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You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.

The other 2 words. Crappy products. Unions don't stop people from buying a quality product.

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"What you hear in a great jazz band is the sound of democracy. “The jazz band works best when participation is shaped by intelligent communication.”
Harmony happens whenever different parts get to form a whole by means of congruity, concord, symetry, consistency, conformity, correspondence, agreement, accord, unity, consonance…….

They do when $1500-$2000of every car goes to paying the union members health care and pension for the rest of their lives.

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You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.

That may be true for some folks. However I just bought a 2006 530i. The money I paid for it i could have bought 2 American cars. Why didn't i? Was it because $1500-$2000 of every car goes to paying the union members health care and pension for the rest of their lives? NO. I didn't find anything that i thought measured up to my dollar. Why not just build a better product that people are willing to buy then you can pay your bills and stop whining about what it's costing you to do business. I agree that American Auto Makers Need to pull together their business model but it's all a lot of talk until you make a product that someone wants to buy.

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"What you hear in a great jazz band is the sound of democracy. “The jazz band works best when participation is shaped by intelligent communication.”
Harmony happens whenever different parts get to form a whole by means of congruity, concord, symetry, consistency, conformity, correspondence, agreement, accord, unity, consonance…….

I'm not following you. You paid 2x what an American manufacturer would charge you for a car because why? What percentage of the US population do you think can afford to spend, what? almost $70k when all is said and done, on a car, when their average income is somewhere in the $50k's?

People pay 2x as much because, well there's no nice way to put it, because they like the status symbol of it. Reliability being equal, there is no reason to spend more than $20k on a car these days, unless people want the 'extras'. Don't get me wrong, I like buying higher end cars myself, i'm not throwing stones in a glass house, but to deny the facts that most people buy BMW, DC/MB, Audi, Ferrari etc etc, isn't because they need basic transportation, it's for a lot of intangible reasons that none of us like to admit because it makes us look shallow and prideful.

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You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.

Quicksilver, you also have to remember the major consumer base isn't buying vehicles over $40K. They are buying vehicles between $15-$33K. I believe dollar for dollar there are a few GM (Cadillac) vehicles that could compete easily with a 5-series. Individual preference may lead in a different direction, but there is competition.

When you have a company like a GM or Ford, these are companies that own multitudes of other companies or at least have major stake in others. What drives me nuts is when people in general go "US car makers can't build a good product" that just isn't true, what is true is they can't build a seriously competing vehicle for the cost. IMO all automakers should cross their fingers and pray to the car-Gods that China doesn't decide it wants a serious auto industry. The amount of "free" labor there would kill Japan/Euro/US sales all together.

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An unwavering defender of those I see worth protecting.

"promote the general welfare, not provide the general welfare"

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Exactly.

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You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.

YAHOOOO Got everyone's juices going. IT'S MONDAY. Yep all of you are correct. Theres a lot of truth in every one of your arguements. I for one was just stirring the pot. Your right I didn't buy a BMW because i needed basic transportation it was because I'm getting old and do not intend on going out without having some fun. Now maybe that may be an intangible reason but all i have to say about that is "keep on living". I believe your own mortality will change that attitude.

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"What you hear in a great jazz band is the sound of democracy. “The jazz band works best when participation is shaped by intelligent communication.”
Harmony happens whenever different parts get to form a whole by means of congruity, concord, symetry, consistency, conformity, correspondence, agreement, accord, unity, consonance…….

I have already seen the light at the end of the tunnel and it's a triain coming my way hence the '01 and '04 bmw's, the new house last year, the '04 vette, the breitling i'm looking to get... you can't take it with you, and you never know when your number is up, might as well enjoy it while you can.

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You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.