Originally Posted by xxx

Originally Posted by xxx

Originally Posted by xxx

Originally Posted by Eric5273

You have to get over the whole 9/11 thing buddy.

Originally Posted by Winston Churchill

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Originally Posted by Eric5273

I'm going to break my political silence for one SINGLE post here, and make a few observations and comments...

I'm an American Jew, and have a few close Israeli friends, including my ex-girlfriend who served in the IDF. Most of her family lives back in Israel. In fact, her brother lives in Haifa where all the Hezbollah rockets have been coming into Israel.

The problem here is much more complicated than most Americans realize. Here in the United States, most of the public is in support of Israel, but what they do not realize is that the political climate in Israel is very split between conservatives and liberals -- very similar to the political climate in the United States. An observation my ex-girlfriend has made is that American Jews are more supportive of the Israeli government than are Israelis.

So what are the internal debates going on in Israel? Well, it is no secret that a lasting peace can be had if they really want it. But the question is "at what price?"

If you go back to the 1950s-1970s, Israel's biggest enemy was Egypt, and both Syria and Jordan were also major enemies. The big terrorist group then was the Muslim Brotherhood which was based in Egypt.

Well, in 1979 Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty. Israel gave land back to Egypt, and in the 27 years since then, there has not been a single incident of violence or major hostility between the 2 countries.

In 1993, the same thing happened with respect to Jordan, and in the 13 years since then, no incidents. Keep in mind that Egypt and Jordan are not democracies -- perhaps Egypt is a very "limited" democracy, but Jordan still has a King. So "democracy" is not a necessary element to have peace. Perhaps someone should explain this to our President.

So peace can indeed be had....but are we willing to give away land for peace? That is the debate....

While most of the world looked at Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin as a hero and they gave him the Nobel Peace Prize, many Israeli conservatives were of the opinion that he sold them out by giving away land -- and that is still the opinion of many Israelis today. He is not considered a hero by many, and as we know he was assasinated not by Arabs, but by a radical right wing Israeli group.

I guess his dealings with Jordan and the PLO are viewed in a similar light to JFK's dealings with the Soviet Union regarding the Cuban Missle Crisis. Many Americans think he helped avoid a major crisis, but many conservatives think he was too soft on Communism.

So the problem here comes down to a conflict in religious ideology. While my ex-girlfriend is not that religious, she does believe that the bible clearly states what lands are part of Israel. For example, Sinai -- the land given back to Egypt in 1979 -- is part of what the bible says is Israel. And she, along with many Israelis, believes that Sinai should be part of Israel, even if Israel has to conquer that land. Same with Gaza, the West Bank (including Jerusalem), and many lands that are currently part of Lebenon, Syria, and Jordan. This sort of stuff is taught to Israeli children in school and they grow up believing that they have a God-given right to certain lands in the Middle East, most of which currently belong to other countries.

I don't have to go into the extremism and religious beliefs of many Muslims, as the woman in the video above clearly covered all of that. And of course, little Arab kids grow up exposed to just as much, or perhaps more, propoganda about the evil Jews.

I guess my point here is that religious beliefs do fuel both sides, not just the Arab side.

What needs to happen here in order for there to be peace, is you need to have more liberal (and less religious) leaders on both sides of the dispute. You had that in 1993, and I believe if Rabin had not been assasinated, you would have peace in the region today. And as for Arrafat, for years Israel complained that he was a terrorist, but what we see today is that he was probably the most liberal and least extreme Palestinean leader that you can hope for.

I used to hear people say "anyone would be better than him" (as a negotiating partner). Be careful what you wish for...you may just get it...(now you have Hamas and Hezbollah)

On a side note, the Muslim Brotherhood still does exist today. But their support among the Egyptian public is very small. They are seen by the Egyptian public as extremists, much the way the American public views American extremist groups like the Arian Army and the KKK.

You are always going to have extremist groups like Hezbollah, Hamas, and the KKK. These groups thrive on violence and war. The more violence and war there is, the more support such groups receive from the general public in their countries. The solution to dealing with such groups, is not to try to defeat them using force -- this only makes them heros and martyrs. The solution is to have peace. As history has shown, when there is peace, such groups quickly become very insignificant.

"THERE IS NO ROAD TO PEACE. PEACE IS THE ROAD." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Ok...that's all I have to say....carry on with the discussion...

Originally Posted by Eric5273

You have to get over the whole 9/11 thing buddy.

Originally Posted by Winston Churchill

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Originally Posted by 03Topazbluex5

go fokyurselv.

Originally Posted by BMW X5

if you think Israel is terrorizing lebanon and the arabs F*$K you

Originally Posted by Eric5273

You have to get over the whole 9/11 thing buddy.

Originally Posted by Winston Churchill

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Originally Posted by Eric5273

Not to stir the pot here, but the two statements above look quite similar to me, except that one was directed at the forum administrator. But still, the second is clearly a personal attack at what I am sure is more than just a single member of this forum.