Seeking advice on Back Surgery. - Page 3

Hoopie · #21 08-15-2006, 05:16 AM

I just got back from a spine biomechanical seminar in London. The guys putting it on were from the US, great research chiros. We know that degeneration comes from a spine not in the best mechanical structural position. Structure dictates function. Even if the neck has lost its curve this can put dangerous tension on the spinal cord pulling it toward the front and then any disc bulge that presses posterior into the spinal canal causes extra interference on the spinal cord, not to mention pain. Check your MRI's and the cord should be in the lower 1/3 of the canal. If it is near the bodies or discs of the vertebra then you have excess tension from a structural problem of your spine. YES a lower back problem can be made worse by neck problems.

Degeneration, this is a touchy subject. The spine is strongest if it is straight when looked at from the front or back, and 3 very specific fluid curves from the side. If you have had trauma in the past (like you described earlier) your spine can buckle. What does this mean? Your spine deforms to a shape without failing or fracturing. This weakens the spine. Why does your spine degenerate? This malposition or buckling causes such abnormal stress in key points in the spine that bone remodels due to stress, causing degeneration. If you have a spur that is growing sideways then you have abnormal weight and stress on that point, the bone grows to help support the extra stress. (Wolff's law) Yes it is a law, which means it happens every time. Which is why when you break a leg, you must walk on it to make it heal faster and stronger.

Ever ask a simple Q like "Why do I have this degeneration or disk hernation?" If it is because of age then why aren't all of my discs like this one? Why don't I have degeneration in my entire spine, only the spot that hurts? It does not make any sense.

If you do have this abnormal spinal position, (subluxation) one problem with surgery or medication is that it will only help the symptoms for a short period of time. Surgery will get rid of the immediate tension (like the past, in your case) on your nervous system, but if the cause of the problem is still there, a new hernia will grow. Fusion causes abnormal mechanics in the spine, this usually causes excess degeneration of the spine of the discs above and below that area. Exercise is great!! It helps stabilize your spinal muscles and your whole body, but do you want to just stabilize a spine that is already in a weak position?

Solution: You may not like it, but honestly chiropractic with specific lower back and maybe neck traction to reposition and restabalize your spine to allow the best function is your best option. Like any doctor, willing to say it or not, I look at everything as having a chiropractic solution. Without looking at your spinal X-rays and specific shifts and twists of the vertebra, I don't how much a chiro can help you. But if this made sense, at least it will give you a few good questions to ask any doctor that you talk to.

Dr. Keith Giese

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JonK · #22 08-15-2006, 01:08 PM

Yes, it is my ancestors' bad when they started walking upright with two feet instead of four somewhere during evolution. What were they thinking?

My Orth. Doc's head nurse is married to Chiro. Doc. My ole Chiro. Doc knows the nurse that's how I got hooked up with the Surgeon.

Speaking with bone spur I had one of those on my left-should with serious impingement. I had my other Orth. S remove 1/2" of collar bone to relieve stress.

My P.T. who also married to a physician (and she is beatiful) tell me I should really stay away from playing basketall, and heavy lifting. But I don't think I listen to her very well.

After every work out, I do 20 min. of stretches that involves core-excersize. I'll speak with my Chiro doc. when I see him at the country club next time.
Thanks for info.

JonK · #23 08-15-2006, 01:18 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention that when I was 19, shattered my left ankle broke 5 bones and legaments there which I was never able to fully recover in athletic terms. No more pseudo-dunk, (I am only 6' tall) for certain. I have herniation on the lower right side. I am sure my right limb worked extra hard to compensate for week left-side. That might have cause the problem breaking up cosmic balance?! I try not to but I always feel more comfortable shifting my torso toward right-hand side when I sitting or dring for a long time. Eureka!!

titanx5 · #24 08-16-2006, 01:00 AM

I hope you are now better informed about your current situation and management options. Since none of us have seen you clinically nor look at any of your studies we can only speculate on what we would recommend. But as I have said prior always try conservative treatment until it fails.

As in regards to alternative/non surgical options, by all means try them and see what happens. Just realized that there are many comfounding variables to the effectiveness of the treatment. Because most people with acute disk herniation will get better on their own, so if they got some sort of physical therapy/chiro its hard to say what really helped. Also after getting treatment for one hour of course everyone feels better. I have never gone to a chiro, but i sure do feel better after a massage.

I do not see many agreement when it comes to opinion by the cutters versus chriopractors. I must admit I pretty much know next to nothing on their practice. But chiro/spinal manipulation is not as benign as people think it is. For example the literature has extensive series about cartoid/veterbral dissection with c-spine manipulation and I have taken care of a vert dissection after manipulation. I am one that do not think there is a chiropractic solution to everything, unless one can tell me they can fix a grade 3 spondy

Hope all this helps

JonK · #25 08-16-2006, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by titanx5

I hope you are now better informed about your current situation and management options.
Thank you it really did.

Since none of us have seen you clinically nor look at any of your studies we can only speculate on what we would recommend. But as I have said prior always try conservative treatment until it fails.
I probably should, I am afraid to go through serious of treatment in agonizing pain that didn't work for me.

As in regards to alternative/non surgical options, by all means try them and see what happens. Just realized that there are many comfounding variables to the effectiveness of the treatment. Because most people with acute disk herniation will get better on their own, so if they got some sort of physical therapy/chiro its hard to say what really helped. Also after getting treatment for one hour of course everyone feels better. I have never gone to a chiro, but i sure do feel better after a massage.I agree with you completely, however Chiro and PT seem to help some people with pain management. And not every Chiro docs try to make serious of appointments rest of the patients life with the treatment that don't work.

I do not see many agreement when it comes to opinion by the cutters versus chriopractors. I understand where you come from.

Hope all this helps

With all the information I feel less iffy with what's coming.
THANK YOU!

PeteG · #26 08-16-2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by titanx5

I hope you are now better informed about your current situation and management options. Since none of us have seen you clinically nor look at any of your studies we can only speculate on what we would recommend. But as I have said prior always try conservative treatment until it fails.

As in regards to alternative/non surgical options, by all means try them and see what happens. Just realized that there are many comfounding variables to the effectiveness of the treatment. Because most people with acute disk herniation will get better on their own, so if they got some sort of physical therapy/chiro its hard to say what really helped. Also after getting treatment for one hour of course everyone feels better. I have never gone to a chiro, but i sure do feel better after a massage.

I do not see many agreement when it comes to opinion by the cutters versus chriopractors. I must admit I pretty much know next to nothing on their practice. But chiro/spinal manipulation is not as benign as people think it is. For example the literature has extensive series about cartoid/veterbral dissection with c-spine manipulation and I have taken care of a vert dissection after manipulation. I am one that do not think there is a chiropractic solution to everything, unless one can tell me they can fix a grade 3 spondy

Hope all this helps

Ok, I have to respond to this one. One of the many rumors that fly around about chiropractic care is this issue of vertebral artery dissection following an adjustment. I realize, as you admitted, that you do not know much about our practice. My purpose here is only to shed some light on this issue.

First of all, a true study of the literature out there shows very little evidence that chiropractic care causes such an incident. Just follow these links:

http://www.worldchiropracticalliance...ons/stroke.htm

http://www.worldchiropracticalliance...okestudies.htm

http://www.chiropracticissafe.com/

My malpractice insurance (excellent coverage, zero incidents in 12 years) is a small fraction of any MD's malpractice insurance. I pay less in malpractice premiums than most board members pay for car insurance. If we were causing such events, insurance companies would not be giving us such low premiums. Trust me.

Also, you claim that the dissection you repaired was following a "c-spine manipulation." Chiropractors are the only professionals trained to deliver a highly specific adjustment. A manipulation is a non-specific mobilization procedure performed by DO's, and often by unskilled professionals. An adjustement and a manipulation are NOT the same thing.

Also, you begin by saying you know "next to nothing" regarding the principles or practice of chiropractic, then go on to say that "I am one that doesn't think there is a chiropractic solution to everything.." That is a common problem run into with the medical profession these days, giving patients opinions and misinformed statements about what we do and how we do it without knowing any of the facts about our practice. I have MANY patients that are MD's, nurses, PA's, PT's, etc. The reason they come in for care is that they have taken the time to learn the facts, experience the care and get the results. In the future, please take the time to find out the facts and make informed statements before you pass information on to patients and to the public. Remember we are here with our patient's best interests in mind. Sometimes there are things out there not delivered by the medical profession which are to the patient's best benefit.

JonK · #27 08-16-2006, 03:02 PM

Officially, I am sending my support out to DOs and different variants of health care professionals out there. I have two DO friends in my town, who I would send my families out for without hesitation. From my personal experience receiving adjustment/exercise didn't help much. I did get ice pad and electrical stimulation therapy, actually my PT had better equipments with variable cycle. When Dr. Scott W found out that his treatment won't fly with me, he immediately sent me to the one of the best OS out in So Cal. The other DO he practices together has gone to top university with distinction. I am certain if he choose he would have gone to Med. school.

Two month ago I took my dad to Vegas, right before the 4 hour drive his back got hurt while he was carton boxes to a recycle can. (He has a herniated disk shown on MRI but that wasn’t bad enough to resort to surgical option. It must run in my family. ) As soon as we arrived in Vegas, I looked up my friend’s dad who has been a doctor in Oriental medicine over 35 years. After he administered acupuncture it was evident it was evident the healing process has been accelerated rapidly. He also held a PhD in Pharmacy from respected school.

Similar incident I had with my friend who is a Psychologist (in research field). I he called one of my client who is a Hypnotherapies a heck. He insisted that only behavior therapy and medication works and nothing else.

As PeterG put it, those professions won't be in business that long and being revere red as much as there are.

titanx5 · #28 08-16-2006, 10:17 PM

Hi all, I just want to make clear that I'm not saying one profession or degree or even speciality is better than other such as if neurosurgeon are better spine surgeons than ortho. The only recs i have given so far is for conservative management and non operative care.

As I have said, i do not know much about chiropractic care. I was only responding to Hoopie's reply that "Like any doctor, willing to say it or not, I look at everything as having a chiropractic solution." I am just saying that I do not believe there is a chiropractic solution to everything. And as i stated on my last sentence is there a chiro solution to spondy grade 3 and higher?

Finally, regarding evidence provided by you as well as evidence by the allopathic doctors, true unbias reserach is hard to find. I am sure we can provide numerous evidence to backup whatever we are trying to say.

I am only trying to give JonK some advice, nothing more or less, and I have not once advocated for surgery so far. I was only saying that everything has risk and there is no free lunch. I am in one way trying to diss anyone or his/her profession as everyone has worked hard to get where they are.

JonK · #29 08-16-2006, 10:46 PM

Thank you Doctor TitanX5. I assume you are MD? I didn't think you intended that way.

DINANM3 · #30 08-16-2006, 11:48 PM

Have you ever heard of disk replacement using an artificial disk called prodisk. It has just been approved by the FDA. # different doctors said that at my age i should definately not get fusion. A fusion should be a last resort option.
They all said i should do the prodisk. My friend had it done last year and he is pain free and back to normal amazing what recovery he has made. Im trying therapy, exercise and stretching along with antinflamatory meds. I am not getting surgery until absolutely nessesary. My herniated disk is L5 s1. Thet also said. With the prodisk that 20 years from now or when ever if you have a problem with it you can always still get a fusion. Once you get a fusion thats it no other options. If you want more info on the prodisk PM me

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