Welfare - When is it enough already? - Page 6

rebound · #51 02-06-2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

Yes, and that is why North Korea is a country where half of the population is starving to death. But that still does not change the fact that they spend such a puny amount on their military and yet they are considered some big threat. I'm pretty sure that the might of your military is not determined by the percentage of your GDP that you send.

I didn't say they shouldn't be starving to death. This wasn't a discussion of what they should be spending their money on - it was one of relative amounts spent on defense.

Oh, and I guess nuclear weapons in the hands of a known madman is no big deal, right? No one is saying that their "might" is directly due to expenditures. It's due to what they spent it on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

So by that measure, our military should be 100 times the size and power of North Korea. Is it? Truely doubtful.

It is. Not in terms of sheer size, but in terms of capability. You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, do you? N. Korea has buttloads of artillery - some with better range than ours. Our answer? Superior airpower - take out the guns from the air. Do we need more tubes to "answer" them? Nope. Intelligent expenditures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

But then, that is not the goal of spending all of that money. The goal is simply to spend the money. The military budget is maybe 25% real military spending and 75% overbloated corporate welfare.

Ah. Back to the military/industrial complex. Eisenhower must be so proud. You so don't have a clue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

And yes, my personal experience with dealing with the US military is that if you know someone on the inside, you can get them to spend extra money and you can avoid the bid process.

Sounds like your buddy is about to go down for fraud, waste, and abuse. My job currently centers almost entirely on purchasing. Go ahead and "educate" me on the process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

And they always make sure to use up every last penny in their budget for fear that if they don't use it this year, it will be taken away from them in future years. So instead of bargaining with you like they should, they tell you how much they have to spend, and you charge them that amount.

The only difference here, is that the contracts my company does are for several thousand dollars, while the ones we are talking about here are in the billions. And even though I personally benefit from the current system, I know it is wrong and do think it needs to be changed.

Ah, the real issue. You only get "thousands" off the government teat, while others drop that much on the ground on the way to the bank with their "billions."

I bargain with sales people on a daily basis. That's where the "small purchase cap" is a useful tool. "Sorry Mr. Salesman. I can only spend $2499.00 at most." I'm sure that's where your business gets busted. I'll bet most of your government contracts are for $2499.00, right? Looks like your buddies in the government don't want to do the legwork of a real contract. I pass more money to my civilian account executive than you get in a given year. No shame on you in that, but it certainly is illuminating as to your frustration toward government spending.

The entertainment continues...

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Eric5273 · #52 02-06-2007, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WagnerX5

S T R E T C H - to make your point

Most other cell phone makers don't focus on cell phones as the majority of their sales. But back to the point at hand, I think we all agreed that the military budget is necessary to secure the homeland, so to speak. Any did anyone else bring up the notion that military spending is for more then just weapons?

My point is two-fold:

1) There is tons of waste in that $600+ billion budget, and it's not accidental waste, but money being stolen, i.e. corruption

2) We could have by far the best military on the planet for much much less than we spend, and could be paying far lower taxes or be getting more services from our government.

rebound · #53 02-06-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

My point is two-fold:

1) There is tons of waste in that $600+ billion budget, and it's not accidental waste, but money being stolen, i.e. corruption

2) We could have by far the best military on the planet for much much less than we spend, and could be paying far lower taxes or be getting more services from our government.

Nice dovetail with the comment you made when you first joined the board - "All cops are corrupt." Remember that little gem?

You really have a short, bald man's complex. The world is out to get you. (But hey, even paranoids have enemies!

)

Wagner · #54 02-06-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

My point is two-fold:

1) There is tons of waste in that $600+ billion budget, and it's not accidental waste, but money being stolen, i.e. corruption

2) We could have by far the best military on the planet for much much less than we spend, and could be paying far lower taxes or be getting more services from our government.

What experience do you have to judge what money makes an efficient military?? That's like me assuming that 600B is no where near enough, it should be 1T...I don't know. I just know that from what I've seen there is much more to military spending then military hardware. I'm not sure what you want the military to cut back on?

All industry is corrupt, whether it is government or commercial, I don't know why the government which is made up of people is suppose to be so superior to the average Joe. Show me one country with no corruption.....?

Eric5273 · #55 02-06-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebound

I bargain with sales people on a daily basis. That's where the "small purchase cap" is a useful tool. "Sorry Mr. Salesman. I can only spend $2499.00 at most." I'm sure that's where your business gets busted. I'll bet most of your government contracts are for $2499.00, right? Looks like your buddies in the government don't want to do the legwork of a real contract. I pass more money to my civilian account executive than you get in a given year. No shame on you in that, but it certainly is illuminating as to your frustration toward government spending.

Yes, indeed. They are lazy and would rather not go through the paperwork. I should yell at them and tell them they are wasting my tax money, but then they would simply purchase from someone else. You don't know how many times I have "oversold" them a contract, meaning they did not need as much music as I provided, but I used up their budget and gave them more than they needed. Instead of telling me what they need and asking me what it costs, they tell me what they are going to spend, and ask me to use it up.

And there are other tricks as well. For example, they will say that I am the only company that can sell them the product. And indeed, I am the only music company that can give them the specific music that I have. But there are other companies that have other music, I'm sure just as good as what I have. But making that claim will allow them to get around the bidding process.

I've had times as well where they wanted me to win the bid, so they "helped me out".

I'm sure whatever goes on with the little production studios I deal with is 100 times worse when it comes to the large contracts. I don't even do anything that could be considered a bribe. I am just nice and polite and they like dealing with me. Imagine if it were politicians I was dealing with, and I could make a campaign donation, or host a fundraiser in their name. I can only imagine how much corruption there is at that level.

Eric5273 · #56 02-06-2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WagnerX5

All industry is corrupt, whether it is government or commercial, I don't know why the government which is made up of people is suppose to be so superior to the average Joe. Show me one country with no corruption.....?

Remove the profit motive from this, and you will lose the corruption. There should be nobody who makes money from war. If there is no incentive to be corrupt, then there will be no corruption.

bjo · #57 02-06-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

Yes, indeed. They are lazy and would rather not go through the paperwork. I should yell at them and tell them they are wasting my tax money, but then they would simply purchase from someone else. You don't know how many times I have "oversold" them a contract, meaning they did not need as much music as I provided, but I used up their budget and gave them more than they needed. Instead of telling me what they need and asking me what it costs, they tell me what they are going to spend, and ask me to use it up.

And there are other tricks as well. For example, they will say that I am the only company that can sell them the product. And indeed, I am the only music company that can give them the specific music that I have. But there are other companies that have other music, I'm sure just as good as what I have. But making that claim will allow them to get around the bidding process.

I've had times as well where they wanted me to win the bid, so they "helped me out".

I'm sure whatever goes on with the little production studios I deal with is 100 times worse when it comes to the large contracts. I don't even do anything that could be considered a bribe. I am just nice and polite and they like dealing with me. Imagine if it were politicians I was dealing with, and I could make a campaign donation, or host a fundraiser in their name. I can only imagine how much corruption there is at that level.

So you admit to Fraud? How does time in a federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison sound?

Eric5273 · #58 02-06-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjo

So you admit to Fraud? How does time in a federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison sound?

There was no fraud, just some laziness which lead to a bunch of waste. If I had given gifts or contributions to those making the decisions, or those in charge of the bidding process, then yes that would have been fraud.

Wagner · #59 02-06-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

Remove the profit motive from this, and you will lose the corruption. There should be nobody who makes money from war. If there is no incentive to be corrupt, then there will be no corruption.

Well that is nice in theory, if there was no profit to be made...well you would have to stop the entire idea of monetary value.

Think it through, if the US (or any government) wants a fighter jet....so they call Lockheed, Lockheed has to buy the parts (off those making a profit) pay the engineers and assemblers, pay the testers, pay for all the testing.....and exactly how are they NOT suppose to make a profit???

The Cleaner · #60 02-06-2007, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

50%??

I'm not sure what your local and state taxes are, because that varies by state and City.

But with regard to any Federal Taxes you pay, including Federal Income Tax:

Last year, the Federal Budget was $2.77 trillion, of which $56 billion was for the Dept. of Education, making a wopping 2.02%.

And this year, Bush's budget is being raised to $2.9 trillion, but he has proposed the same $56 billion for the Dept. of Education, or 1.93% of the Federal Budget.

And over 50% of the budget in my district… making it more of my tax dollars than the military by a factor of 2. Add in the 2.02 in federal money as well any you have increased my dollars paid for education even more.

Tax is Tax my friend, adding smiles and quoting Federal budget contributions does not change the fact that it's a bigger budget than the military. The only problem is it does not fit into the tree huggers position so it's ignored. Open up those eyes and spend all budgets wiser, don’t use the military budget as a whipping boy for poor spending, there is plenty of that to go around

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