This will draw some heat, but I agree with most of it. - Page 4

Parker · #31 12-15-2005, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by statdoc

How does me having a high standard of living deplete the lifestyles of other people or societies? Do you think there is only a certain amount of wealth for the world, and I have more than my share? Since those of us on this board are driving luxury, gas-guzzling SUV's, it is an odd opinion.

All I am saying is that we should make an effort to insure that our high standard of living doesn't come at the expense of those of other people or societies. I am not necessarily claiming that it is,......just that it should not.

You can't argue against the fact there is only a certain amount of resources for the world ( wealth is just a $ valuation of a resource IMO) nor can you argue the West consumes more than our proportionate share of these resources.

My intent was not to try and create feelings of guilt for living in a prosperous society nor to disuade people from participating in that prosperity. I just wanted to state my opinion that we can't on one hand accept the benefits provided to us living in an industrialized nation and on the other deny responsibility for the effect our actions have on the global community. This holds true no matter if the consequences were intended or not.

Like WagnerX5 said "A fact of life is that societies in general are guided by the wealthy or privelaged, not the common citizen. This is a fuel of most conflict through out history."
I believe that Western society and North America in particular as the wealthiest nations in history have a social obligation to champion global equity (not to be confused with communism which, as we have all seen, doesn't work too well.)

Just my opinion. Definitely not intended to back anyone into a corner.

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Parker · #32 12-15-2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footsurg

Parker,

It is the robust economies and wealth of the G8 countries that produce the demand for goods made in countries of so called third world status. The jobs created by this demand provide an economy in these nations that they would otherwise not have. .......... As far as hope is concerned, if it were not for countries like the USA, Canada and GB with their seemingly endless hunger for consumerism these third world nations would have no economy at all. It is the spirit of capitalism and entrepreneurial pursuit that fuels the machine that creates the demand for goods that ultimately create jobs and wealth where there would otherwise be none. That is hope in my book. By attacking us and trying to hurt us economically is like biting the hand that feeds the world.

Mark

From the standpoint of someone who lives in a Western nation nor from that of someone who has studied and accepts macro- and micro-economic models; I can find no fault with your logic. In fact I agree with almost everything you say. However what it fails to take into account is perception. What you and I perceive as fair or reasonable may not appear this way to another person. When these situations arise two responses are needed. The first is introspection and analysis of our position. Is our stance what we intended? Is it clearly defined? Is it having any negative unintended consequences? Does it still seem appropriate? Is it Kaldor-Hicks or Pareto efficient from an economic standpoint?

If we can still in good faith defend our position then we need to undertake our second response. That is to come to a meeting of the minds with those whom our position affects. This is by far the hardest part of the equation. Educating all interested parties of the benefits of working together and dispelling the ignorance and disinformation that lead to hopelessness and anger. It requires constant monitoring and open lines of communication. People need to feel they have a voice and that that voice counts.

Which leads to the next problem corruption from your own leadership and government............ Can we at least agree that it is complicated

ylwjacket · #33 12-15-2005, 06:32 PM

I had written about 10 paragraphs in response to this whole thread, but I deleted them all but this:

When I took my kids to Washington DC, the first place we visited was The National Archives, to see the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. We went from there over to Arlington Cemetery, and we all shed tears at the sacrifices represented by those many little white crosses, all so neatly lined up. We wept at the grave of the pilot flying one of the planes on 9/11 (I think the one that crashed into the Pentagon). Then, we went to the Vietnam Wall, and then the Congress, then the museums.

I told them, you can disagree with your government all you want. You owe it to these people interred here to do just that. But, if we are attacked, or our 'world neighbors' are pulling their usual 'Hate the US' crap, you also owe it to these people to bow up your back and fight. Those that have come before us demand it, and we owe it to them not to let them down.

Maybe because I'm a simple Southern Boy, but we live by the God, Country, Family, in that order, creed around my house, and we don't apologize to anyone for it.

My kids know what America is all about.

Out.

footsurg · #34 12-15-2005, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parker

Which leads to the next problem corruption from your own leadership and government............ Can we at least agree that it is complicated

The issues being discussed in this thread are complicated indeed. Thats a fact that I can wholeheartedly agree with you on brother.

Mark

Juanted · #35 12-15-2005, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ylwjacket

I had written about 10 paragraphs in response to this whole thread, but I deleted them all but this:

When I took my kids to Washington DC, the first place we visited was The National Archives, to see the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. We went from there over to Arlington Cemetery, and we all shed tears at the sacrifices represented by those many little white crosses, all so neatly lined up. We wept at the grave of the pilot flying one of the planes on 9/11 (I think the one that crashed into the Pentagon). Then, we went to the Vietnam Wall, and then the Congress, then the museums.

I told them, you can disagree with your government all you want. You owe it to these people interred here to do just that. But, if we are attacked, or our 'world neighbors' are pulling their usual 'Hate the US' crap, you also owe it to these people to bow up your back and fight. Those that have come before us demand it, and we owe it to them not to let them down.

Maybe because I'm a simple Southern Boy, but we live by the God, Country, Family, in that order, creed around my house, and we don't apologize to anyone for it.

My kids know what America is all about.

Out.

Amen, brother! Well said.

Parker · #36 12-15-2005, 06:45 PM

And on that high note I am retiring from this thread.

Fantastic debate people.

statdoc · #37 12-16-2005, 12:54 AM

ylwjacket---You are the man. Thank you.

ifly · #38 12-16-2005, 01:05 AM

"Until you've walked a mile in another persons shoes"

Being European but having lived and worked in the US I can see both sides of the coin. I just hope the economic juggernaut of the US continues to innovate to maintain its position in the world, otherwise the chips will start to be cashed in and as the largest debtor nation in the world I don't think anyone will be forgiving debt like they do in the third world.

"There is a time and place for everything in this world"

A classic example of this and I can say this being British is look at the Empire we once had and the economic strangle hold we had over much of the world. All good and bad things have a beginning a middle and an end, we can only hope that the end comes long after we are gone.

BMWood5 · #39 12-16-2005, 05:23 AM

[/QUOTE]"When I see Americans like myself I see decent people who are working to survive just like anyone else who lives in any industrialized nation"
Agreed. Americans are decent people working to make a living just like anyone else in an industrialized nation. However, therein lies part of the problem. We are fortunate to live in an industrialized nation which possesses the ability to exploit resources from around the world. Do we work any harder than those decent people working to survive in non-industrialized countries? Is it fair that they are paid third world wages and are stripped of their resources while most of the economic benefit from those resources are exported back to us? Just so that we can go to Wal-Mart or Zellers and buy three of everything for $5.97. Perhaps if we paid more for our resources (both natural and human) and left a greater portion of the economic wealth in these "host" nations there would be a little less desperation, a little more hope and a lot less hate and violence.
Of course this a greatly oversimplified aspect of a larger picture and many of the issues surrounding terrorism are cultural or historical and not economical at all.
To be clear I am not trying to say that the West is necessarily the main cause of these attacks. There is plenty of ignorance and misinformation on their side as well. Not to mention a willingness to blame the West for all [/QUOTE]

Parker, lover of all things Bush and American, please consider Saudi Arabia (still considered a developing nation as well as third world) and think about what they do with their oil money.........

And Parker, just because you are on list 2 doesnt mean we dont luv ya

Hey, sure am glad to be a part of BushWorld.com (ooops, wrong site, i think) This $hit always fasinates me. It either lets ya know how dumb you/they are or how alone you/they might be.

Since I am proud to be an American (music playing in background begins....) I really think everyone should have a say (the first amend. gurantees free entertainment). But PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE get your facts str8. Some people do know the score. And with the Patriot Act, some are keeping it. :eek:

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