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  #131  
Old 01-12-2013, 07:03 PM
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i read it - did you read it? before copyingh and pasting something I would make sure I at least glance over it...

i do not see reference to the US government as being tyrant (even though some may say otherwise)... All references here are made to the king whose bones are long turned into dust... that document, while presents a true historical value and base for our nation has long lost its teeth...

a quarter of millenia later we have moved on - the passage on the slavery, while being part of the constitution has been amended as not reflecting the true nature of all men being EQUAL... So, it is possible to adjust the understanding of centuries old document to reflect today's environment...

so, the notion, that we NEED guns to correct OUR government is ridiculous, unless you are siding with our enemies... we correct our government by electing the officials that represent our views (granted, those officials get carried away in Washington't politics and act in manner not consistent with our choices). But to remove them from the power, we do not resort to guns, we use the representational democracy (i would prefer direct democracy)...

My point is, even if our ancentors used to carve writings in stone using chisels, we do not have to do the same, we have pens, paper, for God's sake, we have those finger-touchy pads that we can write with...

Just because during our ancentors' times there was a great risk of a tyrant (Napoleon Banaparte becoming an Emperor of the French Republic circa 1800), now our nation is too strong for such a risk... we do not resort to Reign of Terror a la Robiespierre.. those examples were vivid before our eyes bsck in the XVIII century, we needed to make sure nothing like that happens on our land... guns, being one of those things...

besides, the constitution has been amended several times after the slavery, in more recent times - before 1920 (give or take 5 years, i just don't remember the date) the women could not vote... yeah... right... let me tell my wife that I, as a man, more superior to her... hahaha

my point - if something is outdated, it needs to updated - you are not using T-model Ford as your daily driver, are you?
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  #132  
Old 01-12-2013, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noncom23 View Post
Geeeeez. That bureau at the Crime selection I
linked to has the same stats.
Thats the bureau incorrectly quoted in your
blog, saying the bureau didn't exist.
The Bureau of Criminology quoted in your link doesn't exist. There is an Institute of Criminology. And a Bureau of Crime Statistics. But let's move on.

Firstly, statistics can be made to support any position if someone only uses part of the data. And gun statistics seem more prone than other statistics to this manipulation, by both sides of the debate. And everything certainly isn't perfect with respect to gun controls and societal violence in Australia. So we could probably fire links at each other forever, to little effect

That said, in the ten years following the Australian implementation of a gun buyback program gun related homicides dropped by 59%. Firearm suicides dropped by 65% with no uptick in non-firearm suicides. And they haven't had another mass shooting like the one that prompted the gun reduction, since 1996. Which, after all, is what they were trying to do.

None of the above claims that other violence in Australia changed for better or worse. It simply says that not as many people died from guns following controls brought in to address that particular statistic.

Australians didn't need to turn in all their weapons. The government bought back 20% of the weapons in circulation. They focused on the semi-automatic weapons used in the Port Arthur shooting. That was it. Want a gun, get a permit. Doesn't seem like taking all the guns away, at least to me.

Sources to this data and links to additional sources here: Massacres and Gun Rules: What U.S. Can Learn from U.K. and Australia | TIME.com

There are lots more statistics that refute the claim that gun controls didn't reduce gun crime in Austalia. Look at the graph, below. In particular, note that the gun buyback program in Australia came in in 1996. That was a bad year for gun homicides. Look at the US gun homicide rate for comparison of the shape of the curve over the same time period.

Those graphs are from this link, here:

cameronreilly.com | The Facts About Guns In Australia

More here:

Quote:
In the years after the Port Arthur massacre, the risk of dying by gunshot in Australia fell by more than 50% -- and stayed there. In the 16 years since the announcement of legislation specifically designed to reduce gun massacres, Australia has seen no mass shootings. Gun deaths which attract smaller headlines are 80 times more common, yet the national rate of gun homicide remains 30 times lower than that of the United States.
Full article here: Gun control: Change is possible -- and fast - CNN.com

I don't think gun controls are a cure all for what ails society. I don't think banning guns works. I think it is our obligation to control access to them. I think economic pressures work better than laws, so gun owners should be held financially liable for the consequences of not controlling their weapons. That wouldn't outlaw guns, it would simply provide an incentive to make sure guns that were laying around were secured.

I also don't think that using statistics about violence in general has much to do with gun murders. I think having more guns is a very inefficient way of reducing minor crimes, since they bring so many other unintended consequences. There is a famous statistic about how for every time a gun is used in self defence, it is used x times in a murder, y times in a suicide, and so on. There are more consequences of the gun being easily accessible than there are incidents of the good guy with the gun saving everyone. On an individual basis (I can now protect my family) it would feel good. On a society basis, not so much.

Finally, to perhaps provide a third party view across the link pasting war, I provide a link to Snopes. Because of the number of claims of Australian gun controls not working, they actually analyzed it. Their view, positive and negative, is here. They characterized the emails floating around as a having a mix of true and false information. Nice to read something more neutral sometimes.

snopes.com: Australian Guns Stats
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  #133  
Old 01-12-2013, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by noncom23 View Post
Modern Society is capitalized from your previous quote elsewhere on our disagreement about guns. This gives the taste of a
Utopian ideology where weapons don't exist. This is the way
I took it from your statement.
Thanks for that. I am not a promoter of a Utopian society. I am more of a pragmatist. I don't want to ban guns. I just think that solving gun crime by having more guns is illogical. It is like an arms race. And how did that all work out from the Cold War? As I recall, one side went bankrupt, and the other isn't too far behind.
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  #134  
Old 01-12-2013, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL View Post
Thanks for that. I am not a promoter of a Utopian society. I am more of a pragmatist. I don't want to ban guns. I just think that solving gun crime by having more guns is illogical. It is like an arms race. And how did that all work out from the Cold War? As I recall, one side went bankrupt, and the other isn't too far behind.

speaking of that bankrupt side - since they withdrew from the arms race, pulled their troops from afghanistan, and basically went back into their cave for the last 20 years, they are not debt free and awash with oil money... scary... a wild bear with a lots of money... and, as we know, money talks...

EDIT: I mistyped "they are not debt free"... it should read "they are now debt free"

Last edited by TerminatorX5; 01-12-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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  #135  
Old 01-12-2013, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TerminatorX5 View Post
speaking of that bankrupt side - since they withdrew from the arms race, pulled their troops from afghanistan, and basically went back into their cave for the last 20 years, they are not debt free and awash with oil money... scary... a wild bear with a lots of money... and, as we know, money talks...
On this we can agree. US is going
bankrupt.
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  #136  
Old 01-12-2013, 08:26 PM
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On that note, I read in one report that the US currently has over 15,000 laws on the books related to gun control, between local, state, and federal. I don't know if that is the right number, but assuming for a moment that it is......

Could the focus change from implementing gun controls (which appear to already have been implemented thousands of times) to improving gun control (as the current laws don't appear to be doing enough)? That could involve a reduction in regulations (on a count basis), with corresponding reductions in cost and bureaucracy, while actually improving gun control effectiveness. Not saying this would be easy, but one of the refrains is, smaller government. It seems to me that tighter and more restrictive gun controls (satisfying one segment of the population) could in fact result in a reduction in the size and cost of government. And no, this isn't my Utopian vision, just a comment for discussion.
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  #137  
Old 01-12-2013, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JCL View Post
On that note, I read in one report that the US currently has over 15,000 laws on the books related to gun control, between local, state, and federal. I don't know if that is the right number, but assuming for a moment that it is......

Could the focus change from implementing gun controls (which appear to already have been implemented thousands of times) to improving gun control (as the current laws don't appear to be doing enough)? That could involve a reduction in regulations (on a count basis), with corresponding reductions in cost and bureaucracy, while actually improving gun control effectiveness. Not saying this would be easy, but one of the refrains is, smaller government. It seems to me that tighter and more restrictive gun controls (satisfying one segment of the population) could in fact result in a reduction in the size and cost of government. And no, this isn't my Utopian vision, just a comment for discussion.
I think creative ideas like that could help.
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  #138  
Old 01-17-2013, 02:55 AM
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That's right NRA score them points...

The ad says

"Are the president's kids more important than yours?" the ad asks. "Then why is he skeptical about putting armed security in our schools when his kids are protected by armed guards at their school?" The ad continues: "Mr. Obama demands the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes, but he is just another elitist hypocrite when it comes to a fair share of security."

NRA Ad Targeting Obama Family Draws White House Response: 'Repugnant And Cowardly'
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  #139  
Old 01-17-2013, 03:10 AM
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Are his kids more important? No.

Are they more likely to be attacked by a nut with a gun? Yes.

Are the people defending his kids highly trained? Yes.

Are his kids more likely to be taken and used as leverage to try and gain control over the president? Yes.

Is this whole ad campaign an attempt to change the subject? Yes.
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  #140  
Old 01-17-2013, 08:59 AM
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If the President hadn't pulled those kids on stage for his press conference, then I would agree with you.

The minute he did, he made the NRA ad reasonable.

If the President doesn't like the exploitation of children, he should refrain from doing it.

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