Confederate Battle Flag Issue - It is about time...

[AVB-AMG]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

I do support the flying of it on personal vehicles or property (not governed by an HOA) no matter how heinous doing so may seem just as the ACLU defended white supremacists constitutional rights.

crystalworks:

While that may be someone's legal right to have a CBF decal or flag on their vehicle or flying on their personal land, doing so today is taking a big chance. By doing so, it is becoming not just a defiant symbolic gesture by that person, but may very well become a catalyst or a provocative spark that may lead to physical damage of their vehicle and/or property or even physical harm by those who are truly offended by it. It that right? No. Will it be surprising to me if it happens? No.
Those bigoted, racist rednecks may be looking for a fight that at the end of the day they will not win....

AVB-AMG

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by AVB-AMG

crystalworks:

While that may be someone's legal right to have a CBF decal or flag on their vehicle or flying on their personal land, doing so today is taking a big chance. By doing so, it is becoming not just a defiant symbolic gesture by that person, but may very well become a catalyst or a provocative spark that may lead to physical damage of their vehicle and/or property or even physical harm by those who are truly offended by it. It that right? No. Will it be surprising to me if it happens? No.
Those bigoted, racist rednecks may be looking for a fight that at the end of the day they will not win....

AVB-AMG

Probably. But would you take away someone's right to fly a rainbow flag or sticker? Or a Jesus fish or cross? Or any other symbol people use to express their beliefs/opinions? Or even a political bumper sticker or yard sign? I don't think so. All of those things will be offensive to someone.

Will those symbols be catalysts to a certain level of vandalism and/or violence. Of course. As long as large groups of people live together there will be disagreements, and a certain level of those people will lack the self control to obey the law because others think differently to themselves.

[Happy]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

Probably. But would you take away someone's right to fly a rainbow flag or sticker? Or a Jesus fish or cross? Or any other symbol people use to express their beliefs/opinions? Or even a political bumper sticker or yard sign? I don't think so. All of those things will be offensive to someone.

Will those symbols be catalysts to a certain level of vandalism and/or violence. Of course. As long as large groups of people live together there will be disagreements, and a certain level of those people will lack the self control to not obey the law because others think differently to themselves.

[AVB-AMG]

Really....?

[Happy]

Originally Posted by AVB-AMG

Really....?

Hahaha... This post is an excellent example of, “The Pot Calling The Kettle Black”.

[amancuso]

Originally Posted by Happy

Hahaha... This post is an excellent example of, “The Pot Calling The Kettle Black”.

Dunno about you, but I found it damn funny.

[Happy]

Maybe because it was a bigoted post, that wasn’t directed at you.

[AVB-AMG]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

I do support the flying of it on personal vehicles or property (not governed by an HOA) no matter how heinous doing so may seem just as the ACLU defended white supremacists constitutional rights.

There will ALWAYS be crazy people who for some reason or another believe in something or another. We aren't going to eliminate that by eradicating symbols. Better to learn what those symbols actually mean (as you mentioned) and be reminded of them. Besides, I prefer people labeling themselves crazy publicly... makes it easier for me to avoid them.

But would you take away someone's right to fly a rainbow flag or sticker? Or a Jesus fish or cross? Or any other symbol people use to express their beliefs/opinions? Or even a political bumper sticker or yard sign? I don't think so. All of those things will be offensive to someone.

Will those symbols be catalysts to a certain level of vandalism and/or violence. Of course. As long as large groups of people live together there will be disagreements, and a certain level of those people will lack the self control to obey the law because others think differently to themselves.

crystalworks:

I agree with you.... up to a certain point.

Just because we have the freedom and constitutional right to do something, does not mean that it is a good idea to do it. I think answering a number of questions may be helpful in better understanding of this issue:
- What is the motivation behind displaying various symbols?
- Is it purely to demonstrate preference, favor, allegiance or is it to intentionally be provocative, maybe even hoping to illicit a response?
- Is this symbol considered hateful or implies that you support or accept violence?
- At what point does displaying a symbol of hate cross accepted norms?
- If domestic terrorism, specifically far-right, white supremacist extremism is our country’s most pressing current threat to our democracy, should the symbols they use be banned?
- What emotion(s) did you experience seeing a number of rioters inside and outside the U.S. Capitol building carrying and waving CBF's on Jan. 6, 2021? Were you shocked, angry, saddened or something else?

I think it is very important to distinguish and differentiate between symbols that are non-threatening vs. those that are very provocative in a negative way. One really needs to be cognizant of the possible or potential consequences to expressing oneself in a manner that may be interpreted in a negative fashion by some others. Personally, I do not consider someone’s display of a rainbow banner, Christian cross or fish symbol or other religious symbols to be hateful. We certainly have seen quite a few political bumper stickers and yard signs over the past 9+ months, where people signified their political beliefs, sometime in rather humorous ways. One precedent on legislating hateful symbols is in Germany, where the government has outlawed the public display of Nazi symbols, specifically the Nazi swastika and the Nazi SS sig rune.

Returning to the specific topic of this thread, should the U.S. consider doing the same for our home-grown symbols of hate, such as the confederate battle flag (CBF)? I think so. Many critics, myself included, see in the CBF a symbol of a defiant white supremacist society that committed treason by fighting to perpetuate slavery and segregation. Supporters claim to embrace the CBF as a reminder and show of honor and respect for ancestors in their heritage who fought for the Confederacy, as well as an emblem of southern pride. What seems strange to many is the question: Did southern pride exist prior to the Civil War or even after it? If so, can there be different symbols to use to convey southern pride, other than the CBF that clearly has additional negative symbolic meaning to many.

I am confused by their argument. Just what "heritage" are they "honoring" by using symbols that didn't exist until the civil war? With the CBF, I and obviously many others see that so-called "heritage" as one of supporting oppression, racism and treason, because that's what those symbols encouraged and those who looked up to them believed and fought for.
It is a shame that the supporters of the CBF do not learn from the lesson put forth by one of the South’s great iconic figures: General Robert E. Lee, Commander of the Confederacy during the Civil War. Lee did not want such divisive symbols such as the CBF following him to the grave. At his funeral in 1870, flags were notably absent from the procession. Former Confederate soldiers marching did not don their old military uniforms, and neither did the body they buried. “His Confederate uniform would have been ‘treason’ perhaps!” Lee’s daughter wrote. So sensitive was Lee during his final years with extinguishing the fiery passions of the Civil War that he opposed erecting monuments on the battlefields where the Southern soldiers under his command had fought against the Union. “I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered,” ….. Robert E. Lee

If Robert E. Lee could get it right in 1870, not long after the end of the Civil War, why is it today in 2021, there are those who still support and carry, fly or display this emblem of secession, hate, racism and treason? Lee chose unity over more fighting. IMHO, some people could take a page out of Robert E. Lee’s book today, and learn how to coexist as one nation.

AVB-AMG

[AVB-AMG]

FYI - This month's issue of National Geographic magazine has an interesting related article on this topic, specifically on the broader issues of Confederate statues. It is titled:

Toppling statues is a first step toward ending Confederate myths
The statues rewrote history, reflecting the values of those who erected them. Removing them won’t erase history.
by Robert Draper

Here is a link to that article:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/h...ederate-myths/

[upallnight]

Originally Posted by AVB-AMG

crystalworks:

I agree with you.... up to a certain point.

Just because we have the freedom and constitutional right to do something, does not mean that it is a good idea to do it. I think answering a number of questions may be helpful in better understanding of this issue:
- What is the motivation behind displaying various symbols?
- Is it purely to demonstrate preference, favor, allegiance or is it to intentionally be provocative, maybe even hoping to illicit a response?
- Is this symbol considered hateful or implies that you support or accept violence?
- At what point does displaying a symbol of hate cross accepted norms?
- If domestic terrorism, specifically far-right, white supremacist extremism is our country’s most pressing current threat to our democracy, should the symbols they use be banned?
- What emotion(s) did you experience seeing a number of rioters inside and outside the U.S. Capitol building carrying and waving CBF's on Jan. 6, 2021? Were you shocked, angry, saddened or something else?

I think it is very important to distinguish and differentiate between symbols that are non-threatening vs. those that are very provocative in a negative way. One really needs to be cognizant of the possible or potential consequences to expressing oneself in a manner that may be interpreted in a negative fashion by some others. Personally, I do not consider someone’s display of a rainbow banner, Christian cross or fish symbol or other religious symbols to be hateful. We certainly have seen quite a few political bumper stickers and yard signs over the past 9+ months, where people signified their political beliefs, sometime in rather humorous ways. One precedent on legislating hateful symbols is in Germany, where the government has outlawed the public display of Nazi symbols, specifically the Nazi swastika and the Nazi SS sig rune.

Returning to the specific topic of this thread, should the U.S. consider doing the same for our home-grown symbols of hate, such as the confederate battle flag (CBF)? I think so. Many critics, myself included, see in the CBF a symbol of a defiant white supremacist society that committed treason by fighting to perpetuate slavery and segregation. Supporters claim to embrace the CBF as a reminder and show of honor and respect for ancestors in their heritage who fought for the Confederacy, as well as an emblem of southern pride. What seems strange to many is the question: Did southern pride exist prior to the Civil War or even after it? If so, can there be different symbols to use to convey southern pride, other than the CBF that clearly has additional negative symbolic meaning to many.

I am confused by their argument. Just what "heritage" are they "honoring" by using symbols that didn't exist until the civil war? With the CBF, I and obviously many others see that so-called "heritage" as one of supporting oppression, racism and treason, because that's what those symbols encouraged and those who looked up to them believed and fought for.
It is a shame that the supporters of the CBF do not learn from the lesson put forth by one of the South’s great iconic figures: General Robert E. Lee, Commander of the Confederacy during the Civil War. Lee did not want such divisive symbols such as the CBF following him to the grave. At his funeral in 1870, flags were notably absent from the procession. Former Confederate soldiers marching did not don their old military uniforms, and neither did the body they buried. “His Confederate uniform would have been ‘treason’ perhaps!” Lee’s daughter wrote. So sensitive was Lee during his final years with extinguishing the fiery passions of the Civil War that he opposed erecting monuments on the battlefields where the Southern soldiers under his command had fought against the Union. “I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered,” ….. Robert E. Lee

If Robert E. Lee could get it right in 1870, not long after the end of the Civil War, why is it today in 2021, there are those who still support and carry, fly or display this emblem of secession, hate, racism and treason? Lee chose unity over more fighting. IMHO, some people could take a page out of Robert E. Lee’s book today, and learn how to coexist as one nation.

AVB-AMG

I think you answer your own question, but if you didn't see the answer it is because they choose to be racist, and because they are racist they are also hateful.