Auto Bailout, yea or nea?

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by LeMansX5

The big 3 already have manufacturing overseas. They do have plants in Ontario, Canada among others, where health care is govt. provided.

I would bet that the workers in Canada are paid just as much, but the overall cost they incur is much lower due to the health care savings.

[NC_X5_Guy]

Here is my take........biggest failure with GM is the UAW contract. A guy on an assembly line is not worth $70 an hour. Paint him as the best headlight installer in the world, its still a job a high school drop-out can do with success. This is GMs weak point, the union has killed them. File under some bankrupt clause, and do away with the union and pay decent wages, problem solved. There is more workers than top mngmt jobs, so you can't blame the mngmt for breaking GM. Sure, they may need to kill some bonus money and incentives for mngmt, but the hourly paid union worker and lack of sellable products is what has killed GM over the past 5 years. No mid range sports cars, an ugly mid sized truck, no decent 4 door sedans......it pushed folks to honda, toyota, that were usually GM owners. Finally this year they redesigned the malibu, best it has ever looked since it came back into production. The only thing GM has going for them in the sales market is the silverado and suburban platforms, outside of that, they are doomed.

[Wagner]

Chevrolet should slice off from "GM". It is probably the only portion with a real ability to survive.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by Wagner

Chevrolet should slice off from "GM". It is probably the only portion with a real ability to survive.

I would bet Saturn probably does ok as well. They seem to have a nice following.

[realchef]

We need to refuel our economic engines. Re-focus jobs and production in USA. Certainly not the Obama's 'new deal jobs'. Roosevelt drove us farther in and we were only pulled out by WWII. Our fundamentals are so out of whack!! This auto industry collapse is an opportunity to take a big hit, settle down and rebuild.

It may not sound like much, but a place to start having an effect is by looking into your immediate community. Spend your money where it will matter the most, buy as local as we can. I am willing to pay a little extra or even take a lesser product right now if it will keep my dollars here.

BOYCOTT CHINA

[StanF18]

Too lazy to do the research right now, but isn't the main problem with the Big 3 their RETIRED workers, rather than their current workers??
I don't believe that the guys on a GM assembly line are making DOUBLE or even 1 1/2 times what the guys at Toyota and Honda are making. I think I read somewhere that the real anchor dragging down the Big 3 is the continuing pension and health benefits they are required to dish out to the retirees. I don't know what kind of pension funds (if any) are in place at Toyota and Honda, but it can't be as burdensome as what the Big 3 are having to maintain for their long-retired "geezers".

But again, bringing it back to Wagner's OP: Here comes Shittybank this past weekend, begging for $20 Bil, and presto...the $20 Bil magically appears. Seems like the big banks are clearly the teacher's pet...While the car-makers are getting sent to the principal's office. Why is it OK to buy up $700 Bln of bad debt and corrupt mortgages(I can't even fathom what that number means. It may as well be Monopoly money), but it's not OK to throw a few Billion to the makers of the ZR1 Corvette with a 3.4 second 0-60 time? (And very cool ceramic slotted brakes)?

[LeMansX5]

Originally Posted by StanF18

......... I think I read somewhere that the real anchor dragging down the Big 3 is the continuing pension and health benefits they are required to dish out to the retirees. I don't know what kind of pension funds (if any) are in place at Toyota and Honda, but it can't be as burdensome as what the Big 3 are having to maintain for their long-retired "geezers".

But again, bringing it back to Wagner's OP: Here comes Shittybank this past weekend, begging for $20 Bil, and presto...the $20 Bil magically appears. Seems like the big banks are clearly the teacher's pet...While the car-makers are getting sent to the principal's office. Why is it OK to buy up $700 Bln of bad debt and corrupt mortgages(I can't even fathom what that number means. It may as well be Monopoly money), but it's not OK to throw a few Billion to the makers of the ZR1 Corvette with a 3.4 second 0-60 time? (And very cool ceramic slotted brakes)?

You answered your post.

[LeMansX5]

Its funny that the execs at GM have seven corporate jets and then they fly to Washington with tin cups asking for bailout money. Only after media attention they want to cut the fleet size.

Big 3 CEOs are pathetic. No soup for them.

[motordavid]

I've read nearly everything I could get my hands/eyes on the past weekish, on this situation;
I like to think I'm pretty smart and well informed but the yin & yang commentary, from even
reputable news sources and analyses, makes my head spin. Some random thoughts, strictly
from the Fwiw Dept. and, only imo:

-If the Lil'3 or, some combo of that group receives "nothing", they probably will go under or,
so close to "under" that their demise, at least for the US, will have considerable and long term impact.

-Good articles tout "pre-pack BK"; but with the intertwined suppliers and the truckloads of each company's
commercial paper/bonds floating around or worse, imbedded in banks and financial institutions, it Aint' Gonna Happen...
a pre-pack BK, that is.

-Good articles tout GSB, a gov't sponsored Chapter 11 BK. Similar in many ways to the support the barbarian run
"banks" and credit joints are getting, though almost all of them have escaped BK. Possibly...
Even that won't be easy, nor would a Commercial BK...the credit lines and liquidity absolutely needs to be
"propped up" for BK to work or have any chance of being effective. Some gov't monies intervention could be
that "prop" effect. Delphi for example, has been in BK for 4 fookin years already.

-The ~$75 an hr bandied about is not what a "line worker" makes; that number is the average which includes
more skilled labor, tool & die, etc, and also includes about a 33% bundle of benefits an "hour", which they are
not getting in their weekly paycheck. The Import Gang averages ~$47 bucks inc. their different and less substantial
"benefits". Overpaid, probably...delusional as to their "rights", yes. Should we send them all to the curb, probably
not.

-The Legacy Costs, long term med/pension, etc., are enormous for the Lil'3. That cost impact is hard to define
"per car", but it is akin to a smaller version of our gov't spending: agree to almost anything and hope there is some
way to pay it off/back in the future. If BK or, at worst, "Goodbye", the Fed Gov't will get stuck with picking up some
portion of that legacy cost, (pension and increased impact on health coverage), so some Gov't dough is "now" or,
more later, take your pick.

-Approx. half of the US Lil'3 worker population resides in Mich.; if the Lil'3 go toes up, that poor state will look
like North Dakota, minus the scenic farms and, may end up a war zone.

-The Stuffed Suits flying in on private. jets was a dumb move, but the "banks/financials" that have already gotten
~$400 Billion with very few strings, are not making their $5000 buck an hour guys ride the subways or fly tourista...

-The Lil'3 played the game, supported by the gov't, vis a vis the no mpg rules on trucks/big SUVs, and when the tide
turned, they were SOL. But, the mpg mandates did not affect all those kinds of vehicles. Mandating more mpg for the
Lil'3, as part of a future deal is like telling the homeless to brush daily and increase their workout regime...stupid and
moot, imo.

-The Lil'3 or 2, going under with a wave from the citizens, will involve and impact suppliers, IT, banking, ancillary
companies, a host of 3rd, 4th and 5th parties and more "working" people than any of us can imagine at this point.

I suspect that leaving it/the situ, and the potential fix or solution to Congress or even Congress and the Treasury,
is like hoping the 6th grade class will solve your town's issues...what a fookin mess.

-Send the CEOs packing, stir up the "Boards", force them to reveal real, solid, sea change Plans, throw them some
dough with the usual Landry list of covenants and strings, but keep some figment of this manufacturing class going.
The econ and the consumer is going to wring the Lil'3 economic necks as it stands now; but, to send them off to Valhalla
is short sighted and will exacerbate the economic pain this country faces for the next few years.

Time is up and ya'll tired of reading by now...
Good Luck to All. We shall need it, regardless of what any of you/us "do" for a living or how insulated any of us
think we are.
GL,mD

[AzX5]

Interesting that Ford's most advanced assembly plant is apparently in rural Brazil instead of in Detroit:

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189