Jared Loughner is just "a lone nut"?

[Viperfreak2]

Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata

As far as Viper's comment about lesser threat situations, he mentioned a running from a knife. One would be shocked to see how quickly a knife can be deployed and how much more damage an edged weapon can do versus a gun. People generally don't miss with a thrust of a knife but a shot fired from a gun can easily miss its intended target.

The problem is that guys like Loughner never had that documented.

Scenario: I am being stabbed with a knife. You and your family are nearby and see it happen. What do you do? One dead, everyone else puts a good distance away.

I would dispute that it was never documented because so many people have already come out and said they were afraid of him in a school. I hope someone went to the front office and they documented the fears.

[PersonaNonGrata]

Originally Posted by Viperfreak2

Scenario: I am being stabbed with a knife. You and your family are nearby and see it happen. What do you do? One dead, everyone else puts a good distance away.

I would dispute that it was never documented because so many people have already come out and said they were afraid of him in a school. I hope someone went to the front office and they documented the fears.

Is the stabber done after killing you or is he on a rampage? If he's done with just you then I'll be a good witness and call 911. If he's still actively attacking people I would likely do what I could to stop him, provided anyone with me is safe. I have the means to intervene with lethal force if necessary. It is not my first choice of actions but if lives are at stake and I can deploy my firearm then that is certainly an option, and an option where a gun can save lives.

I agree that Loughner has a long history of people observing bizarre and scary behavior. Some were probably reported to someone. The problem is what happens with those reports? If a school employee or administrator is told by a student that another student is acting bizarre and even making threatening statements, what does that person do with it? Who do they report it to? What is done with the person reported? Can the person be committed based on that? You see where I'm coming from on this? That is the issue, not the guns.

The question about how someone with a mental health history can get a gun will no doubt be discussed. I think that is where we need to look for answers and solutions. It's part of a larger issue in society. How do we deal with people who are mentally ill?

[Viperfreak2]

From what I know about local schools today (two of my family members are teachers), they take reports of odd behavior seriously and document it. Most of the time the police are not notified unless something severe happens. Then the whole history is communicated to them.

I am sure that with all the statements made about him so far (one guy said on the NBC news that he looked over his shoulder when he was at the dry-erase board to keep an eye on Loughner, others say the knew he was gonna show up one day with a weapon and take everyone out) his schools had to notify the police at one time or another.

It's not always clear who is 'mentally ill' and who is gonna snap because they just got fired. In so many other cases, people say they were clueless about a shooter until after the damage was done.

[Dannyell]

Crazy or not, if he would have wanted to get a gun he could have done so...

Do you think we will judge whether someone should carry a gun based on what they did at school? ...it will never happen...too many factors to take into consideration....and the crazies will still find ways to get guns and kill people.

Unfortunately this is the society we live in.

[PersonaNonGrata]

Originally Posted by Viperfreak2

From what I know about local schools today (two of my family members are teachers), they take reports of odd behavior seriously and document it. Most of the time the police are not notified unless something severe happens. Then the whole history is communicated to them.

I am sure that with all the statements made about him so far (one guy said on the NBC news that he looked over his shoulder when he was at the dry-erase board to keep an eye on Loughner, others say the knew he was gonna show up one day with a weapon and take everyone out) his schools had to notify the police at one time or another.

It's not always clear who is 'mentally ill' and who is gonna snap because they just got fired. In so many other cases, people say they were clueless about a shooter until after the damage was done.

I believe that people did notice things and report them but the question becomes what is done with that information? Does a school just file it away? Do they report it? To who? Is there a repository of information on people who have exhibited bizarre behavior? Even though the school had documented incidences about this guy it is only useful as a retrospective. "Oh yes, I remember him. Here's his file of crazy behavior." What can be done with such information to prevent future behavior? How can dangerousness be predicted with enough surety to take somebody out of society? How does a bunch of entries in a school or business' records intergrate with government records for things like getting a gun or getting a license to be a foster parent or whatever?

That is what I'm talking about. Plenty of people will come out of the woodwork and talk about how they knew the guy was odd, was a loner, ranted about bizarre things but what good does that do after the fact? If so many people knew Loughner was mentally unstable, why wasn't anything done? What could have been done? If something could have been done and was done then perhaps he would have been unable to carry out his mass killing.

Originally Posted by Dannyell

Crazy or not, if he would have wanted to get a gun he could have done so...

Do you think we will judge whether someone should carry a gun based on what they did at school? ...it will never happen...too many factors to take into consideration....and the crazies will still find ways to get guns and kill people.

Unfortunately this is the society we live in.

True. Crazies and people intent on carrying out terror will do whatever they need to in order to accomplish their goal. If he couldn't get a gun then he could have easily driven a car through the crowd (a al Santa Monica Farmer's Market case) and killed even more people. They were in front of a grocery store and vulnerable to an attack with a vehicle.

[Viperfreak2]

Originally Posted by Dannyell

Crazy or not, if he would have wanted to get a gun he could have done so...

Do you think we will judge whether someone should carry a gun based on what they did at school? ...it will never happen...too many factors to take into consideration....and the crazies will still find ways to get guns and kill people.

Unfortunately this is the society we live in.

We should always keep working to better the society we live in, not just say 'this is it, nothing we can do'

The point I didn't make clear enough was a school hearing about threats. Any reported threats should have been documented and the police contacted. Then, the way it should work, is that he is in a database to not legally sell him guns. He shows up at a sporting goods store to buy a gun, they look in the computer and they tell him no. Would that stop him from getting a gun? No way, but it makes it more difficult, and the choice of gun (and magazine) less. Some 'street' dealers will sell to anyone. Some would see the crazy in his eyes and consider that he might shoot them in the back after the deal.

Anyway, once the police were involved maybe there could have been more push to get him some medical help. His parents should have been first in line asking for it. Did they?

[Dannyell]

Originally Posted by Viperfreak2

We should always keep working to better the society we live in, not just say 'this is it, nothing we can do'

I get what you are saying ... but look at the world we live in... this incident like others before have sparked a bunch of debates and thats it. Even if laws change here and there it won't be enough to end these kind of tragic events.

Any action the government takes one way or another one group of people is bound to disagree...and there are 'crazies' in every little circle capable of pulling off all kinds of stunts.

I wonder how many people ran out to buy larger magazines because they heard on the news that soon they might not be able to...

People seem to never learn to be more alert unless something like this happens, and that is quite unfortunate.

[PersonaNonGrata]

Originally Posted by Viperfreak2

We should always keep working to better the society we live in, not just say 'this is it, nothing we can do'

The point I didn't make clear enough was a school hearing about threats. Any reported threats should have been documented and the police contacted. Then, the way it should work, is that he is in a database to not legally sell him guns. He shows up at a sporting goods store to buy a gun, they look in the computer and they tell him no. Would that stop him from getting a gun? No way, but it makes it more difficult, and the choice of gun (and magazine) less. Some 'street' dealers will sell to anyone. Some would see the crazy in his eyes and consider that he might shoot them in the back after the deal.

Anyway, once the police were involved maybe there could have been more push to get him some medical help. His parents should have been first in line asking for it. Did they?

Agree! The documentation on this guy was pretty extensive. IF there was a way to involuntarily commit him then that should have happened. The idea that the school's documentation would somehow get into a federal database to prohibit him from buying a gun would be the ideal but that is where there is a disconnect. The federal check would not reveal his history if it was confined to school records.

I was a gun store last week and they told me about a guy who had a gun there in the waiting period when it came back that he was a prohibited person because he had a prior mental health detention (72 hour hold). I don't know how that got into the records or if it was a self-report on the form he had to fill out at the time of purchase. The system can work but there are times when someone's mental health history is unreported in so far as it was documented in ways or places that do not link with databases that are kept and queried when a gun is purchased.

It's easy to see the why or how this guy could do what he did when it's Monday morning quarterback time. The signs were there but what can we learn from it about the process and how people who pose a risk to themselves and others can be dealt with before something terrible happens.

[Weasel]

I'd be willing to bet a very minuscule percentage of guns used in crimes, especially crimes of this nature are not obtained in any sort of legal fashion..... Most guns used in violent crimes are stolen or obtained on the streets. Where did he get the glock he used?

I also heard (but forgot the details) that his dad is either a cop or in politics to the extent of him not getting in the trouble he should have in his past. A case of family in high enough places to get him out of a lot of stuff most would be processed for, whether by law or psychiatric evaluation.

[PersonaNonGrata]

Originally Posted by Weasel

I'd be willing to bet a very minuscule percentage of guns used in crimes, especially crimes of this nature are not obtained in any sort of legal fashion..... Most guns used in violent crimes are stolen or obtained on the streets. Where did he get the glock he used?

I also heard (but forgot the details) that his dad is either a cop or in politics to the extent of him not getting in the trouble he should have in his past. A case of family in high enough places to get him out of a lot of stuff most would be processed for, whether by law or psychiatric evaluation.

He bought the gun legally at a sporting goods store in town. Don't know about the father's position.

Again, tons of people said he was nuts but that meant nothing as there was nothing that could be done about it. If he had committed a serious enough crime prior to the shooting there might have been a chance some mental health intervention could have taken place. If that had happened, it is unlikely he would have been able to buy the gun.