Jewish protest
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmS7r...eature=related


Maybe not what you expected?

I have an older jewish friend that I buy trailer and truck parts from...

He tells me the same thing...

disgraceful.

Eric always loves to bring up videos, news clips, etc. of Hasidic, Anti-Israeli protestors.

They have biblical reasons for not wanting to accept Israel as a state. Has something to do with Israel being granted to the Jews at the end of the world vs. the United Nations doing it..

It's a complicated issue for the ultra religious..

Eric,

Maybe the newbies don't realize this tactic that you try to use to attack the position of Israel, but I've been here long enough to know you were going to bring it up sooner or later.. That's a low blow. You want me to find videos of Muslims suggesting that Israel should be left alone, in peace, etc.. Cause I can if you really want me to. YOu know that argument doesn't hold water.. Those Hassidic are devout in their own right.

Eric just believes the US is the ultimate enemy and since the US backs Israel..."the enemy of my enemy is my friend " :)

To be honest, i believe this issue is way too complicated for us to discuss it on this forum.
-I just think it's kind of strange,that Israel is founded on a part of land that has all the water, and privilages, and Palestinians on the other hand have limited access to water.
-If you look at the historical maps, you will actually see that the state of palestine existed way before WW2
-On the other hand, talented and usefull people like Jews in fact should have a piece of land to live in, should not they?
-There was a resolution after WW2 which came up with the solution to grant Jews the state to live in, i believe there where 3.
1. was in Palestine
2. was Argentina
3. was not so sure, maybe someone can help me out.
SO this issue is so complicated, that i believe discussing it here will only hurt us and the cause.

Yep it won't get any easier than this....

What is certain that both Hamas and Israel are in violation of international laws...and while this conflicts keeps on going it seems nothing is being resolved...

I hope an Obama administration will not support Israel as much as past administrations have....at least not with this behavior

It was Uganda:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Uganda_Program

Doubtful considering who his chief of staff is.

Well i agree with you in some areas, but reality is this:
-Unites States has 2 kinds of interests
1. IS NATIONAL INTERESTS WHICH ARE NONE NAGOTIABLE, WHICH MEANS, NO MATTER WHICH ADMINISTRATION IS ELECTED, THESE INTERESTS WILL NOT BE TOUCHED, and Israel is in the National Interest, Obama wount change much, and he will support Israel thats a Given
2. PERIPHERAL INTERESTS. Which are not the priority but still important to United States, they may change from Time to time.
-If we go back to what George W Bushes foreign policy was it was nothing but a failier and this is why.
1. When Condoliza Rice used to travel to Middle East, Europeans, John Kerry and even Obama used to warn republicans not to loose grip on Hezbollah, and what happend? Hezbollah become the LEGITIMATE PART OF LEBANESE GOVERNMENT, they have seats in the government.
2. Bush and Condie used to be warned regarding the hammas as well, and what happend? Hammas become the LEGITIMATE AND LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE IN HUGE AREAS OF PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT.
So 2 of the most radical groups in the area, HAVE LEGITIMIZED THEMELVES AND THAT HAPPEND UNDER BUSH ADMINISTRATION, This is why Colin Powel was FURIOUS.
Regarding the Israel and Palestine, I'am going to be really carefull here, because this is one of the best forums it really is, and we have Jewish and Muslim members here, and i don't want to write things here that would tare everyone a part.
-Virtually via internet it is useless to discuss this issue deeply, but if i would be talking to some of our forum members then that would be different, much easier to be talking about such a sensitive subject in person.
-Homeland problems are dear to me, i as well recently experienced extreme difficulties, August war with Russia, and anexed territories.

Good observation. What you don't say is why Israel is such an important national interest. The reason is the power and influence of the AIPAC, which is by far the most powerful lobby in Washington. Good luck getting elected dog catcher if you get on their bad side. With the exception of a few "career" congressional representatives and senators, they have the ability to eject anyone from office. ;)

Or in other words, we are discussing taboo? I was waiting for you to touch this subject, i will translate:
United States is controlled by wealthy Jewish Lobbiests, and thus they control the world order.
-Bill Gates, microsoft was not enough, now he is a PHILANTROPIST GOING TO AFRICA, my my my, imagine how much wealth is there, untouched waiting to be explored. American warships are seating along th coasts of African nations full of natural resources.
-George Soros, another PHILANTROPIST, has spend over 6 billion dollars in
so called donations, but the truth is, he has created OPEN SOCIETY INSTITUTE, and promotes democracies arround the world, and whats the most dangerous part is, HE FUNDS SO CALLED REVOLUTIONS ARROUND THE WORLD, WHICH FAIL CATASTROFICLY.
Need i say more? Lobbieng is not such a huge deal in States untill ELECTIONS come arround, It's what is done in the world afterwards this or that president is elect, the truth is you people might be shocked if you actually realize how powerless an American President can be at times.

American taxpayers pay for Israelis to have free health care, but don't even have them for themselves. I guess that is in our best national interest?

You are mistaking if you think Americans pay only for Israeli healthcare.
-Sponsoring the Army? Weapons? I can imagine how expensive it could get if you are backing a country militarly which is constantly at war.

It's a bit late to make it an un-state.

:rofl: true

Jig, I would like to directly answer and counter-point some of your questions and statements.

-I just think it's kind of strange,that Israel is founded on a part of land that has all the water, and privilages, and Palestinians on the other hand have limited access to water.
Water is now and has long been an issue. It's not just an Israeli/Palestinian conflict but also involves Jordan..


-If you look at the historical maps, you will actually see that the state of palestine existed way before WW2
You are confused because of the term PALESTINE. THe land of Israel used to be under the Ottoman Empire. After that it became part of the British territories. The area was called "PALESTINE" but there was no state. Furthermore, Christians , Jews and Muslims all lived in the land called Palestine. Nothing was taken away from anybody. It was British controlled land. Britain with the support of the UN divided the land called Palestine into two states, Israel and Palestine. Prior to that, it was just a territory inhabited by all. The Jews accepted the statehood and Israel became an official country. The Arab-Muslim population refused to recognize a Jewish state and thus did not accept the lands to be created under the term Palestine. But there was no Palestine country.

Then the Arab-Muslim population that didn't accept Israel as a state on 3 separate occasions, with the help of their Jew hating neighbors, attacked Israel in an effort to destroy it (Or were planning an attack..) The state of Israel then occupied territories that the Arab Muslim population turned down and occupied it for military strategy cause they kept getting attacked from there.

My point is, PALESTINE was just a name of a British territory that was then supposed to be divided between Muslim and Jewish states. So just like Canada is in N. America does not mean it's a United State of America.


-There was a resolution after WW2 which came up with the solution to grant Jews the state to live in, i believe there where 3.
There was a resolution after WW2 that gave BOTH, Jews and Muslims, living in the area called Palestine, a state to live in. Neither the Jews or the Muslims had the state prior to the resolution. It was a British territory and before that Ottoman Empire. It did not then and it does not now, belong to the Muslim Arab population that lived there and mostly co-existed with it's Jewish and Christian neighbors.

First i would like to point out that, i really appreciate the civil and friendly discussion regarding this sensitive subject, if it did not go this way, i would simply not come back to this thread.

1. I understand the water issue, and i guess as i mentioned it is a part of problem,

2. As for the rest of your points, ofcourse i agree with you in certein areas, but problem lies elswhere, and to be exact it goes waaaaay beyond WW2.
I'am christian myself, Eastern orthrodox, but even in a bible just like in a Choran, the land is described as the land of Arab people, and belonging to to People of Mesopotomia, even Jesus who was jewish himself touches upon this area.
Yes Jewish people did live in this part of the land, even back then, but it has always been mentioned as land of Arab palestinians, British did not come up with this term just by an accident.
But then during the crussade wars, which had nothing to do with religion in a first place,Arab land was devided up by certein then powerfull and wealthy nations, and that is exactly the reason why me and you are sitting near the computer now in a 21st century and saying that British devided it up for everyone to live in it.
Thats where the problem lies, British had nothing to do there and just like now, it was a mistake for anyone to go there and colonize such part of the world.
British didi have tendence to practice extrateriotorialism, and they still do as we speak now, in China they have pieces of land which belong to British and chinese people can not step a foot on that land, because by the international standarts and law, during extrateritorialism, if you have a piece of land in another country it is yours, and all this was a result of Opium Wars.
So problem lies way deeper then probably we can all comprehand.

Jig,

For arguments sake:

Nomenclature

The name Canaan is mentioned frequently in the Bible. It refers to parts or all of the region between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea in antiquity[5] It is also sometimes used interchangeably with the Land of Israel, Palestine, Zion, the Holy Land or the Promised Land.[citation needed]
Canaan predates the name Land of Israel but describes the same land.[6] The classical Jewish view, as explained by Schweid, is that "Canaan" is the geographical name; the renaming as "Israel" prior to its invasion by the Israelites marks its sanctification, the origin of the Holy Land concept.[7] The region of Judaea existed by that name for from the 6th century BC until it was renamed "Palestina" by the Romans following the Bar Kokhba revolt against Rome in the 2nd century AD. In the Bible and elsewhere, Zion originally meant the region of and around Jerusalem but, because of the importance of this city, came to designate the whole of the Israelite land, as for example in the naming of Zionism.

But putting the religious ownership of the land to the side we need to be a little more pragmatic. The land belonged to the UK. They said:
Divide it into two states, Israel and Palestine. The Israelis said, Okay, thanks for giving us a Jewish state and giving holocaust survivors a place to live.
The Palestinians said, "Oh no, we don't want to recognize a Jewish state, the whole area should be ours!" and then they attacked Israel. So come the spoils of war and the Palestinians lost the land that they had already refused anyhow.

My point is further, that wasn't the first time that Muslim-Arabs tried to rid the world of Jews, nor the first time Germans, or Russians tried it either. The only difference is, now the Jews are armed to fight back and to suppress their enemies.

The Jewish state of Israel is a necessity. And it exists on land that has always had Jewish populations, holy sites and historical religious context.

The Jewish state is there to protect Jews from the continuing atrocities that have happened to them over and over and over again, throughout time.

From the holocausts, to the Spanish Inquisitions, to the Russian Pogroms, etc. And in every instance of Israels fight for survival, it has been attacked by neighboring hostile enemies who only care to destroy Israel because of it's Jewish leadership and citizenry.

It is the one, the only, Jewish homeland. And it's only the size of the state of New Jersey. The Middle East is tremendous and it's resources and fuels vast.. The only reason the Palestinians get the support from their neighbors is not because of what they may or may have not lost. But because they all have the same enemy, a Jewish lead state.

Anything less than an all out, defensive stance by Israel against hostile aggressions should be retaliated with equal or greater force.

double post....see the next post.

You forgot the part where 500,000 Arabs were removed from their homes by force and kicked off of their property never to return again. ;)

That is an issue that has nothing to do with what the name of the country is or who is the government, but has to do with respecting property rights of individuals.

And BTW, even in the Jewish Bible there is lots of mention of Palestine.

We give billions of dollars to Israel in aid each year. They provide free health care to all of their citizens. Thus, we are paying for Israelis to have free health care. Dollars are dollars. It doesn't matter what the money was intended for. As long as we give aid to Israel, and Israelis get free health care paid for by their government, and we in the United States do not get free health care, then our taxes are paying for Israeli health care instead of our own.

As you have mantioned above, why do you think Israel views rest of the arab world as enemies? Surely Jews did not kick rest of the Arab people off the land?
The reason is, as often stated by Jews as an argument, why don't you go and live in the rest of the arab countries, they are same as you, as for us Jews we are different and therefor we deserve a state.
-That is a wrong aproach to begin with, no matter which way you turn it, just because in the past you have been mistreated that does not give you a right to misplace vast majority of population from one place to another, THAT'S CALLED ETHNIC CLEANSING, sure that will never bee recognized in 20th century history by United Nations, for those same reasons you mentioned above.
Just because Jews have been living there for centuries, that does not mean at that exact spot should be a country which serves the interest for mainly Jew state, as you know, the holliest places for all 3 religions is alltogether in a 100 meter radius, so what if mistreated group of christians state they need a state which should be based near the holliest places of their religion, that would be wrong would it not?
-Thats why there should have been palestine and everyone that lived there should have continued living as they where.

Interesting point Jig. However

The Jewish population of Israel has several times offered to incorporate the Palestinians as members of the Jewish state giving them full citizenship. The condition being:
A) They must recognize the state of Israel
B) They must vanquish their other citizenships.

So suggesting that the Jewish population is trying to ethnic cleans is a little far fetched. Matter of fact, there are many Muslims who are Israeli and live peacefully under the protection and rights of the Jewish state.

In other words, the Palestanian people that the Israeli's continue to fight with are those that have:
A) Declined to be a part of the state of Israel, even after they declined to accept territories earmarked for Palestine.
B) Refuse to acknowledge, accept the right to a Jewish state.

Israeli's did not say, "Move somewhere else" The Jews did not kick them off their land. They refused the land and also refused to become members of the existing state of Israel..

In other words, THEY DON'T WANT ISRAEL to exist, at all. They don't want to share the land, they don't want to be a part of a territory that has Israel as a Jewish state. They have also continued to attack Israel ever since it was formed.

So to insinuate that Israel is trying to ethnic cleans is pretty silly in my mind. They have offered citizenship, they have even given back lands, and still, Hamas refuses to accept a two state resolution if it means the recognition of Israel.

As far as your last statement, the United Nations decided to give that territory, under the permission of the UK, to both Palestine and Israel. It's not Israels fault that the Palestinens refused their portion. Israelis did not take the land, it was given to them by the collective agreement of the entire worlds delegates.

B Why do you argue with the resident Whack-job? Eric has such a narrow mind it's infuriating sometimes. He can't stand to be wrong. Let alone he has proven he is a hypocrite yet still posts with arrogance and through all this is FAR TO CHEAP to buy a premier membership while his posts eat up/ruin take your pick our storage space.... Just my 2 cents...

This was only offered to Jews living inside of Israel and NOT in Gaza or the West Bank, which is where the Majority of Palestineans live.

Bo,

To be honest, I'm not arguing with Eric. I'm presenting alternative information to anyone who might be reading one of these threads who might actually believe Eric's nonsense.

It just so happens my responses are formed as a counterpoint to Eric's statements. So while it seems that I'm arguing with him, I',m just presenting information that isn't smeared in Eric-verbal-fecal-matter with no basis of truth.

Though I do stand my statement, I do actually believe that Eric believes the own garbage he spews regardless of how silly it is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3111727.stm

Thursday, 31 July, 2003
Israeli law limits Arab citizenship
The Israeli parliament passed a law preventing Palestinians married to Israelis from gaining Israeli citizenship.

Human rights groups have condemned the law as racist but supporters say it is necessary for security reasons and to maintain the Jewish character of the state of Israel.

The law will prevent Palestinians from the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza from marrying Arab-Israelis, who make up about 20% of the population of Israel.




If these people were offered Israeli citizenship, then this would not be an issue. But Arabs who live in the West Bank and Gaza have never been offered citizenship. In fact, based on where they are from, they are automatically not eligable for citizenship. And since the passing of this law, marriage between an Arab from the West Bank or Gaza and an Israeli Arab is not even recognized by the Israeli government as a legitimate marriage.

From an Israeli news source:

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articl...499881,00.html

Arabs battle for citizenship; State unyielding

Mohammed al-Deik has lived in Israel for 18 years, paid taxes, employed workers in his factory and even married two Israeli citizens and fathered an Israeli girl, but Interior Ministry still refuses to grant him citizenship



If you read the article, you find out that the reason he and others in similar situations have been denied citizenship is that they were born in the West Bank.

Arab, in your statement you said, "That was only offered to Jews living in Israel and not in Gaza or the West Bank." - I think you meant Muslims.

And you are correct, Israeli citizenship was not offered to ALL Palestinians. It was offered to all Muslims living in the state of Israel. My mistake (yes, that was a big mistake on my part.)

"I wish we didn't need this law, I'm not thrilled with it, but there was a government decision and I must follow it," he said.

Controversy

But the minister in charge of relations with parliament, Gideon Ezra, has defended the bill on the grounds that 30 Israelis have been allegedly killed by Palestinians who gained citizenship and residency rights through marriage.


So in other words, prior to 2003, Palestinians could marry Israelis and gain citizenship. But then after a series of attacks caused by Palestinians who married an Israeli to gain citizenship, the Israeli government put a stop to it, in a clear effort to stop giving a vehicle for potential terrorists to exploit..

While the law clearly sucks, it makes sense for the security of Israel, which is more important than the individual rights of some of it's citizens, who have historically and continually exploited that right as a means to further attack from within.

Whether or not the law had a good reason for being passed is another issue. The Palestineans who are "rebelling" (for lack of a better word) are the ones who have NOT been offered citizenship. They are the ones who live in refugee camps for the past 40-60 years and who do not have the posibility of living normal lives. When you grow up in that kind of dispair, extremist types who preach the need to "fight back" sound amazingly attractive, while passive types who suggest negotiating with the enemy give the appearance of being cowards.

And the same goes for the Israeli side. Israeli leaders who respond with force and attack the enemy are much more popular than those who preach peace and negotiation with the enemy.

Both sides suffer from the same nationalism that causes these viewpoints, and until one side swallows their pride and refuses to fight back, like was done in the Indian Revolution or the American Civil Rights movement, there is never going to be peace. Non-violent resistance is the only thing that will lead to an independent Palestinean state.

Eric, you keep reverting back to the notion that the Palestinians are some sort of innocent bystanders who have been unduly treated at the hands of imperialistic like Israel.. This is one of the main reasons why your argument holds no water. Understand these facts:

1) The majority of Palestinians do not now, did not then and will not in the future, ever accept the idea of Israel as a state.
2) Attacked Israel in an all out war, in effort to destroy it on numerous occasions.
3) Were given the opportunity for land and state hood but decided they would rather be in a prolonged war, sacrificing their children and their children's-children, rather than accept the idea of a Jewish state.
4) Even now, the only reason that some of the population even consider the acknowledgment of Israel is not because they believe in the idea that Jews deserve a government to protect themselves, but rather, they are tired of the never ending war and quite frankly, having their asses handed to them, over and over. But at any given time, the majority of Palestinens and Israels other hostile neighbors, would like to see the Jews pushed into the sea. - Remember Iraq shooting scud missiles at Israel during Desert Strike? Or Iran making statements that the Holocaust never happened?
5) Continue to mount war against Israel in the form of terrorism, supported by hostile neighboring countries that want to eradicate Israel.

Stop pretending that the Palestinians are some group of innocent victims that have been suppressed and taken advantage of by the big, bad, state of Israel.. That's complete and total HORSE-SHIT..

From the beginning the Palestinians tried to eradicate the state of Israel with the help of neighboring hostile countries. And while they may be a people of occupied land, they continue to mount attacks on Israel.

Israel is now and has always acted in an interest of self defense. This is not like the Native Americans and the expansion of the West.

You need to understand Eric, that Israelis re-actions go back way further than the war if 1967. That Palestinians have been killing Jews in that region since long before Gaza and West Bank occupation.

You can't make peace either, with a majority of the people, when there is still a huge minority that wants the destruction of Israel..

Your views and statements that Israel is an occupier, an evil nation hell bent on enslaving and ethnically cleansing Muslims is awfully close minded and one sided.

I'm not suggesting that Israel does everything right. But considering their history, the people who have attacked them, the makeup of their population and the pains the Jewish people have lived through to establish and maintain a homeland... I think their actions have largely been appropriate considering the circumstances..

Jihad does not end with a two state solution. The desire to destroy Israel does not end but Israel not retaliating against rocket strikes. And your idea for peace in the middle east doesn't for one second, take into account, that you as a Jew, are one of the first people they would like to kill, provided they had the opportunity, simply because of your religion.

You should thank your stars every night that there is a nation, a homeland, a place that doesn't even know you, but would protect you till the ends of the earth, because they know the world's history and the prosecution that your ancestors before you had to live with in order to survive..

Cause without the state of Israel, this is what many regions of the world would try to do to you:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...olocaust00.jpg

I'm just going to say one last thought on all of this, and then I think we're all talked out here:

I know that when we Americans talk about the Israeli/Palestinean situation, we think that the #1 priority of these people is the politics and conflict at hand. But actually, if you speak to people, you will find that most people of all nationalities and religions worldwide care more about basic things such as food, shelter, a good economy, a good job, safety, education for their kids, etc.

In countries where living conditions are good, the majority of people rarely even turn out to vote in elections, nor do most care what the results of those elections are. It's only when things get bad do people suddenly care about politics. Things are bad now in our economy and we have two wars going on, so we had record turnout in this last election. But ask people who they voted for in 1996, and you'll find that many people did not even vote.

Well, once again that is not just an American phenomenon. That is a human phenomenon. You may ask "what's the point of all of this?".

The point is that for the majority of Palestineans, if life was good for them, and they had jobs, food, a place to live, education for their kids, etc.....then they would not give a crap about Israel, nor would they pay any attention to violent extremist groups who advocate Israel's destruction.

The only reason people are training their kids to be suicide bombers is because things are so bad for them. In Gaza there is 75% unemployement. I'll say that again....75% unemployement. Here in the US, people are crying about 6% unempoyment. Imagine what things would look like at 75% unemployement. Furthermore, people do not have electricity in much of Gaza. People do not have enough food to eat. And this is not just in the last week. It has been this way for about 2 years now. And when things are bad, people will listen to anyone who says they have a way to fix it, even the most violent extremists.

Israel's only way to fix this is to come up with a strategy that results in a better quality of life for the Palestineans.

B-Line: Thoughout this entire thread, you continue to tell me why my suggestions won't work. What you have not done is tell me what you think Israel should do to achieve peace.

So lay out your plan. If you were in charge of Israel, what would you do, and how long do you estimate it would take to achieve peace?

Eric,

WHile I would like to agree with your opinion that the only reason people are training their kids to be suicide bombers is because things are so bad for them, unfortunately your statement does not hold truth.

The majority of the terrorists that attacked on 9/11 were Saudi, educated and wealthy. Osama Bin Laden is an extraordinarily wealthy man and so are many of the people that fund terrorism.

The reason a lot of these people turn themselves into walking bombs is because they feel as though they will be rewarded in heaven in doing so. They are believers, fundamentalists, who are raised to believe that their sacrifice in life in the name of Allah will award them a place in heaven.

Their families get paid when they commit acts of terrorism and they are then worshiped in the forms of posters and memorials.

To them, it is to be a hero to sacrifice their lives in the name of religion in an effort to end the Jewish state.

There is no reasonable expectation that the hatred for the Jews and the Jewish state will diminish even with the donations of lands. There was violence for thousands of years before Israel against Jews and it will continue even after the possibility of some peace agreements.

The only reasonable solution at this time is to have a stronger army, with better weapons with higher education and intelligence. And everytime a new group of anti-zionists pops up and starts attacking, annihilate them. And if they hide behind schools as they launch their rockets, then it is they who have killed the children, not the Israelis.

But supporting these groups and not getting behind Israel only gives them strength. And that is what you are doing and much of Europe. You have given them reason to continue attacking Israel in the form of protests.

Israel is just trying to survive. It's not now nor has ever wanted the destruction of a Arab/Muslim territory. But if that Arab/Muslim territory only seeks to destroy Israel, then Israel must be preemptive and decisive.

If the rest of the world really gives a shit, let them help the Palestinians by doing ANYTHING other than condemning Israel.

Israel is not the bad guy. Israel is just a bunch of Jews and Arabs, trying to survive in an area, surrounded by people who want it's destruction. And while some of their measures may be extreme, they are necessary to the security of the state.

All I can say to this is that in my opinion, everything you said here is as valid as if you had written the reasons why the Communist Jews firebombed the Reichstag, or the reasons why the Spanish Navy sunk the USS Maine.

If I believed all that stuff to be true, then I would most likely share your opinions of the situation as well.

Oh yeah.. I forgot who I was talking to for a minute.. The guy who thinks that George W Bush and Dick Cheney, planned and executed the attack on the World Trade Center..

Why do I bother... ?

Eric, if you're so interested in world affairs and exposing the truth of history then why are you in the music business? Why aren't you a history teacher like your dad? And out of curiosity, what are your dads opinions of your crazy theories?

I'm guessing here for a second, you're like that daughter in the movie FOOTLOOSE. Her dad's a preacher so she goes against him and rebels by wearing her slutty red boots.

I think your theories on history have more to do with your relationship to your father, a history professor, then they do with real world events..

I think you need a shrink...

My dad is not a history teacher. You are confusing me with Wagner.


My opinions have to do with what I read.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/21/inv.id.theft/
Director Robert Mueller has acknowledged that some of those behind last week's terror attacks may have stolen the identification of other people, and, according to at least one security expert, it may have been "relatively easy" based on their level of sophistication.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001...n.september112
False identities mislead FBI
The FBI acknowledged yesterday that some of the terrorists involved in the attacks last week were using false identities, as it emerged that at least two men had been wrongly implicated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1559151.stm
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1558669.stm
Hijack 'suspect' alive in Morocco




When I read that some of the 19 guys they claimed were on those planes have not only turned out to still be alive, but have been interviewed on television and all had experienced "identity theft" in the recent past, I ask myself "why would someone who was going on a suicide mission use a fake ID of a known Islamic extremist?".

And the only reasons I can think of why someone would use a fake ID to commit a crime are these:

1) they needed the fake ID to get past security and get onto the plane and figured if they used their real ID they would get caught.

2) they didn't know it was a suicide mission and thought it would be easier to escape if authorities did not know who they were.


As for #1, if you were trying to get past security, the last person you would want to pretend you were was a known Islamic extremist. You would not use a fake ID of someone affiliated with al-Queda. So that theory goes bye-bye. That leaves #2.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001...m.september111
Attackers did not know they were to die
FBI investigators have officially concluded that 11 of the 19 terrorists who hijacked the aircraft on 11 September did not know they were on a suicide mission, Whitehall intelligence sources said last night. Unlike the eight 'lead' attackers, who were all trained pilots, they did not leave messages for friends and family indicating they knew their lives were over. None of them had copies of the instructions for prayer and contemplation on the eve of the attacks


The only problem with this bit of information is that the guys who used the fake IDs were the pilots or "lead attackers" as the article calls them. They were not the ones who were ignorant of the suicide mission. So #2 does not fit either.

So how about you answer the question: Who would use a fake ID of an Islamic extremist when trying to carry out a suicide mission?

The obvious answer: someone who was following orders.

And why would those making the decisions order these individuals to use a fake ID?

Answer: so that the crime could not be traced back to them.

Which leads to this question: Why use fake IDs of people who are affiliated with al-Queda?

Answer: to mislead authorities into thinking al-queda was behind the attacks.

If al-Queda had been behind the attacks, then there is no reason to use the fake IDs unless the fake IDs were to lead to another group.

Kind of like an episode of CSI here. Just follow the evidence. You don't have to be a genius. It's all very logical.


And BTW, the FBI still shows the pictures and bios of those guys on their website as 9/11 terrorists -- the ones who are still alive and were intereviewed on BBC television.

I hope you all are reading this... Just proves what I was saying about Eric's opinion on world views. He still thinks that 9/11 was perpetrated by our government and the whole terrorist thing was a smoke screen.

And as evidence he is using reports from the media that came out 10 days after the attacks regarding persons on the planes.. Now for those of you that don't remember what was going on in this country on Sept 21, 2001, let me remind you, there was Anthrax scares, misinformation, general panic.

And Eric uses a misreport of identification as his evidence of a US cover up. Pretty pathetic Eric...

btw, if those people who were Al Quaeda whose Id's were stolen, than why would they volunteer to come to the United States? Why would they care about clearing their name with the US government... Clearly they stole and used those ID's because those people weren't on the terrorist watch list..

And of course there are going to be some mistaken identities in a shit storm like 9/11.

You really need to wise up Eric. Your views of world politics, corruption, conspiracy, etc. are so far over the edge that you can't smell your own bullshit.

I'm not suggesting that everything the news reports is always 100% accurate.. But to suggest that Israel is evil because it protects itself and that the US is responsible for attacking itself is nothing more than an embarrassment.

Again if you really believe all that than the fact that you run a music company and don't do anything in the realm of politics or education in an effort to expose the truth is just pathetic.. But in reality, I think you know your bullshit is thin.

Terrorists hijacked planes and blew up our civilians. Not the US government.
Israel is protecting itself from people that wish to destroy it, not co-exist with it.

Grow up.

hmm tell me m8...whats is the point of flying a jet into a most likely evacuated white house...because I am pretty sure it's not to kill as many civilians as possible...

Well probably ther is a point, since the White House is a symbol of America, and It's the most popular and most politicized nuilding on the planet, it's not so much the demage that would be done, its more of a statement for terrorists i guess

Exactly. The 9/11 attacks were of the same variety. In the case of the WTC towers, the planes hit the towers prior to 9am when most people were not yet at work. A total of about 2500 people were killed in the WTC. If the planes had hit one hour later, that figure would have easily been 10 times as large. And in the case of the Pentagon, the planes targeted the one small area of the Pentagon that was closed for renovation, and thus fewer than 100 people in the Pentagon were killed. If the plane had hit any other spot in the Pentagon, the casualties would have numbered in the thousands. Whoever was directing the 9/11 attack was clearly trying to minimize casualties while making a statement. The purpose of a terrorist attack is to "terrorize" the people, not to kill them. 9/11 clearly succeeded in doing that.

Now ask yourself "who benefits from a terrorized American population?". And what actions are the direct results of the 9/11 attacks, and who benefits from those actions? Answer those questions and you have solved the case.

I exactly know what you are hinting at, and let me tell you, there are lot of people who believe in this theory.

However i'am not goint to say this or that, i think it's kind of strange that the plane in Pennsylvania ended up like it did.
Clearly when Boeing 737 crashes, it does not become ashes, instead there is a lot of wreckage involved, at least thats the case in houndreds of commercial plane disasters, but for some add readon, this particular plane was nothing but ashes, so this bring us to a though.
What if it was shutdown?
Well we should ask the following questions.
1. If it was planned by the authorities why would they shut down the plane that was planned to terorrize people? Maybe they did not have enough cohones to crash the plane in to the white house? and that would just have been ridicilous?
2. If it was in fact hijecked and then SHUT DOWN BY THE UNITED STATES JETS, F16'S AND SUCH, WHY WAS IT HIDDEN FROM THE PEOPLE AND WHY WAS NOT THE TRUTH TOLLED?
So there are lot of things that don't go with each other.
I have a very brief opinion about this but i would like to keep ot to myself at this moment, thank you very much

There were two purposes to the official cover story. Purpose #1 was obviously to get support for an invasion of Afghanistan to remove the Taliban.

Purpose #2 was to make sure that the 9/11 attacks never see the inside of a public courtroom EVER in any respect. No public trials for anyone involved, and NO LAWSUITS. So there could be no admission to any wrongdoing by anyone at the airlines or the government.

So to protect the airlines, there could not have been any banned weapons brought aboard the flights. Box cutters were not a banned item. So thus, the terrorists must have used boxcutters. Nevermind that the FAA's official transcript of communication with the flights has discussion of guns and bombs. The terrorists used boxcutters, end of story!

To protect the government, the planes all crashed. No planes were shot down. If a plane is shot down and innocent civilians are killed, there can be lawsuits against the Air Force or Pentagon. But the plane crashed, so nobody is at fault except those hijackers who are all now dead.

And just to further make sure that nobody sues, the government offers money to all the family members of victims. In order to get this money, you have to sign a waver that you will never sue any parties for anything related to the attacks, including both the airlines and the government. As the amounts of money paid out were rather large, over a million dollars per family average, the large majority of families took the money and signed the waver.

How about this.. How about both of you stop disgracing the memory of lost Americans and the worst tragedy in the history of the United States by furthering this asinine conversation.

You should both be ashamed of yourselves... and your collective stupidity just goes to show that two half a brains doesn't equal one brain..

I'd appreciate it if you would please take your "THE US GOV'T planned and executed 9/11" bullshit and continue it in private. But dropping it into a thread regarding Israel and Palestine is even more offensive.

So let me guess, just because i'am doing something you do not aprove off, if you where a U.S. Government and me some other small country, you would attack me? Just for having a different thought, thats exactly my point.
Thats how simple this shit is when it happens, by the way, ask for half brained people amongst you.

:iagree: :iagree:

Pretty sad when one of "our own" (i.e. Eric) goes out on a limb to foster dis-unity and attack the right of Israel to exist or to defend herself. But then again, every family has its proverbial black sheep. The good news is that the overwhelming majority of Jews know better. They have a deep appreciation for the importance of a state which was not an option back when their parents and grandparents were sent to the gas chambers at Auschwitz and Treblinka.

As Rodney King would say "can't we all just get along" ? ........;)

Oh my god, i don't know if we all can just get along, but who is that on your avator?
Don't do that man, hot hot hot

Whether or not you agree with him, a lot of information is in here that you may or may not know....

An Unnecessary War
Thursday 08 January 2009
by Jimmy Carter, Washington Post

I know from personal involvement that the devastating invasion of Gaza by Israel could easily have been avoided.

After visiting Sderot last April and seeing the serious psychological damage caused by the rockets that had fallen in that area, my wife, Rosalynn, and I declared their launching from Gaza to be inexcusable and an act of terrorism. Although casualties were rare (three deaths in seven years), the town was traumatized by the unpredictable explosions. About 3,000 residents had moved to other communities, and the streets, playgrounds and shopping centers were almost empty. Mayor Eli Moyal assembled a group of citizens in his office to meet us and complained that the government of Israel was not stopping the rockets, either through diplomacy or military action.


Knowing that we would soon be seeing Hamas leaders from Gaza and also in Damascus, we promised to assess prospects for a cease-fire. From Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, who was negotiating between the Israelis and Hamas, we learned that there was a fundamental difference between the two sides. Hamas wanted a comprehensive cease-fire in both the West Bank and Gaza, and the Israelis refused to discuss anything other than Gaza.

We knew that the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day.

Palestinian leaders from Gaza were noncommittal on all issues, claiming that rockets were the only way to respond to their imprisonment and to dramatize their humanitarian plight. The top Hamas leaders in Damascus, however, agreed to consider a cease-fire in Gaza only, provided Israel would not attack Gaza and would permit normal humanitarian supplies to be delivered to Palestinian citizens.

After extended discussions with those from Gaza, these Hamas leaders also agreed to accept any peace agreement that might be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who also heads the PLO, provided it was approved by a majority vote of Palestinians in a referendum or by an elected unity government.

Since we were only observers, and not negotiators, we relayed this information to the Egyptians, and they pursued the cease-fire proposal. After about a month, the Egyptians and Hamas informed us that all military action by both sides and all rocket firing would stop on June 19, for a period of six months, and that humanitarian supplies would be restored to the normal level that had existed before Israel's withdrawal in 2005 (about 700 trucks daily).

We were unable to confirm this in Jerusalem because of Israel's unwillingness to admit to any negotiations with Hamas, but rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels. And this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.

On another visit to Syria in mid-December, I made an effort for the impending six-month deadline to be extended. It was clear that the preeminent issue was opening the crossings into Gaza. Representatives from the Carter Center visited Jerusalem, met with Israeli officials and asked if this was possible in exchange for a cessation of rocket fire. The Israeli government informally proposed that 15 percent of normal supplies might be possible if Hamas first stopped all rocket fire for 48 hours. This was unacceptable to Hamas, and hostilities erupted.

After 12 days of "combat," the Israeli Defense Forces reported that more than 1,000 targets were shelled or bombed. During that time, Israel rejected international efforts to obtain a cease-fire, with full support from Washington. Seventeen mosques, the American International School, many private homes and much of the basic infrastructure of the small but heavily populated area have been destroyed. This includes the systems that provide water, electricity and sanitation. Heavy civilian casualties are being reported by courageous medical volunteers from many nations, as the fortunate ones operate on the wounded by light from diesel-powered generators.
The hope is that when further hostilities are no longer productive, Israel, Hamas and the United States will accept another cease-fire, at which time the rockets will again stop and an adequate level of humanitarian supplies will be permitted to the surviving Palestinians, with the publicized agreement monitored by the international community. The next possible step: a permanent and comprehensive peace.

ex-gf...........:rofl:

ex gf ha?
You broke up with her right? what did she do? not iron your trowsers?:rofl:

Eric we should stop posting regarding this issue, it's way too sensitive for too many people arround here, we are gonna end up with some sort ..............stickers

no ..... more like, she dislikes Bimmers...... I had to choose .... enough said .....

Heck if that was my GF I'd be sleepless as well :D

aaaaaaaaaah, bad choice man, if i had a girlfriend like that, i would not mind driving a Russian Lada

Bottom line. Israel is responding to being provoked and attacked by radicals who have threatened to kill every last Jew and they will not rest until Israel no longer exists.

If Hamas and the dozen other terrorist Islamic groups decided they had enough of the bloodshed and vowed to work together for a better Middle-East the entire region would inch toward the 20th century instead of being stuck in their twisted 14th century mindset.

If on the other-hand they do nothing and Israel announces that they are done with the bloodshed and lay down their arms what do you think the response would be from Radical Islam?

I'll tell you...Praise Allah, Death to Israel.

How about some intellectual honesty from those of you who condemn Israel and support Hamas and the actions of other militant Islamic groups.

If Hamas stops all violence and threats Israel will stop and ease the restriction in place to protect them. If Israel stops the violence from Hamas will escalate.

OK, here is some intellectual honesty. It is perfectly reasonable to condemn Israel for its actions in Gaza while not supporting the actions of Hamas. I do not support Israel's actions in Gaza, coincidentally the same position recently taken by the UN. That is not a vote for Hamas or their terrorist acts. I do not support Hamas. I am trying to be really clear here.

It is illogical to assume that condemnation of Israel is a vote of support for Hamas.

I'm not asking you to support the actions of Israel but I am asking you to understand the stark reality of the situation.

Israel WOULD stop all violence if Hamas and those who call for the destruction of Israel would cease the hostility toward Israel. Do you doubt this to be true? If Hamas and those like them announced they were going to stop the attacks and sit at a peace table recognizing Israel I don't see how Israel could or would continue the war.

On the other hand is Israel were to lay down arms and cease all hostility while holding out the hand of peace do you really believe Hamas would welcome them with open arms and end their attacks?

Time for a reality check.

So i have a question, What if Arab world decides that having palestinian people as scapegoats for the rest of the world to see and making Israel look bad cause it kills arabs(palestinians) What if arab nations decide enough is enough and abliterate Israel? Just attack it full force, what will America do than? Or UN? Thats where we should not get, especially if Iran gets involved, and Russia helps Iran.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

LOL...

Jig, you need to do a little research: The Arab world tried it in 1948, then again in 1967 (though Israel did a preemptive strike that succeeded in knocking out most Egypts airforce, shortly before they were to strike.)

Then to add insult to injury. The Arab world attacked Israel a third time on the holiest of Jewish holidays, Yum Kippur in 1973. (The third time an Arab coalition attacked Israel on several fronts...)

In all three wars, Israel kicked the ass of the enemies.

And that was before nuclear proliferation...

If the Arab world is even near successful in destroying Israel, with no uncertainty, there will be a full and unequaled nuclear retaliation that will result in nothing less than the total obliteration of all of Israel's enemies.

And that is probably one of the few reasons why we haven't seen a MAJOR war since 1973. If Israel loses, EVERYBODY dies.

You mention 3 examples and plus lough, you must also know today situation is different, i say this after doing a research.
You think only Israel has Nucs? If you think that you are naive.
Russia and Iran are doing everything they can to unbalance Israel and America, thats why this is dangerous.
It's funny how you mention that if everyone attacks Israel they will retaliate with Nucs, SO OH THATS GREAT LETS JUST ALL FUCKING DIE IN THIS REGION CAUSE SOME FUCKING COUNTRY DECIDES TO DRAG EVERYONE ELSE IN ITS MISERY OF SURVIVAL, stupid direction to take.

Jigaro the only reason US supports Israel is apparently some rich lobbyists...anything other than that... :dunno:

Since 1949 we have given Israel a Grand Total of $84,854,827,200

We all know what to expect from Hamas...violence and BS ...but Israel? to fight back like this in this manner?? that is not right...& more people die, while we sit here and wonder why everyone is protesting Israel...

They are complaining that things are being smuggled ( from guns to car batteries) in into Gaza...well WTF do you expect them to do when all borders are closed...

Hamas is succeeding in doing one thing...and that is making Israel look bad...

Don't get me wrong i'am far from supporting Hammas, don't care for violence and these types of organizations, but common this shit is getting annoying, don't force rest of the world to feel aggressive towards you, and to feel unsimpathetic by being ubnoxious and reising hell every once in a while, and oh wait can't do shit to me cause i have nucs, that is sick, cause Israel should realize there are sivilizations arround israel in 4-5 thousend mile radius and by being irrisponsible and havin survivomania it's getting old and everyone is tired of it

Jig,

There are a couple of fundamental issues you are clearly missing:
1) Israeli enemies (The majority of the Middle East) does not want peace. They want the total destruction of Israel. Palestine is nothing more than their excuse.

2) The potential use of Nukes is probably the one thing that has allowed Israel to survive and has also been a deterrent to attacks since it's proliferation.

3) Yes, if Israel is destroyed, It can and should take all their enemies with them. Anything less than a full out, nuclear attack destroying all of it's enemies, would further encourage it's enemies to attack. Israeli policy on defense is, you kill one of ours, we kill two of yours.
-- Are you suggesting that Israel should just allow it's hostile neighbors to destroy it because you're tired of watching the conflict on the news?

4) Israel isn't dragging anyone into the fray that hasn't either directly attacked it, indirectly attacked it, supported terrorism, etc. Last time I checked, every country Israel has warred with his either:
A) Already attacked Israel.
B) Has openly stated and supported the attacks on Israel.

But maybe it would just be easier for you if the Palestinians started a Nazi party and then threw all the Jews in the oven with the help of Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and all their other neighbors..
-- Just like the Germans, the French, The Polish, The Austrians, The Russians and everyone else did some sixty years ago..

Never Again my little little friend Jig... And if that means retaliation using any and all weapons necessary, SO BE IT...

Israel doesn't really care what you think. To be honest, neither do I. I just post here so other people who might not understand what Israel must do to survive, can read this and get some understanding of what it means to survive in a world where the term, HOLOCAUST or POGROM or INQUISITION or Arab-Israeli conflict actually has some meaning, other than what you watch on the news.

p.s. - Did you know in the UK last week there were protests against the movie "Defiance".

A movie about a bunch of Jews during WWII who decided to stand up for themselves, attack their enemies who were killing them and started communities in the woods to protect themselves..

Can someone please explain to me what there is to protest? The fact that Jews survived? Or that they counter-attacked the people who were committing genocide?

Maybe you would just like it better if Israel "turned the other cheek"...

Do you also realize that Hamas has stated, that even if Israel gave them EVERYTHING they wanted (the obvious exception being the destruction of Israel.) - That Hamas has said, they still would not recognize the right to a Jewish state under any circumstances.. And if there should be a treaty that said treaty would only be a 10 year cease fire. Then the Arab-Muslim population would again start attacking the Jewish state.

In other words, Hamas says, give us everything we want and we'll give you 10 more years.. Then our children will finish you.

-- Maybe all us Jews should just get in a straight line so that way the firing squad has to only waste one bullet.. Would that make you happy?

i refuse to argue with eric or anyone else anymore I honestly could not care the world opinion of Israel anymore aslong as my family and country are safe. I am however going to post some quotes from various forums i go on.


I would also like to quote Israel's first female prime minister. and with saying that I would like to say Hamas deliberately harms Israel civilians while Israel does everything in its power to avoid killing civilians but using this analogy I am going to explain it for all of you.(minus eric because he thinks 9/11 was an inside job) On 9/11 if a fighter jet spotted one of the hijacked planes they were ordered to fire which would kill the innocent civilians on the plane, however it would prevent the plane from either crashing into the Pentagon or White house which would kill more innocents (yes I know the Pentagon was a military target). Now would you rather the fighter pilot fire on the aircraft or kill numerous innocents and leave the country in shambles on the ground? Now lets put this in the IDF perspective. On a patrol inside Gaza your unit is walking to its objective and you come across a militant who and want to engage the where you are taking contact from but there are civilians standing with him who for some odd reason are not running. Would you A) put you and your unit at risk by not firing and instead getting dead. or would you B) fire but not spray which means to fire at the who is engaging you and not sporadically in that general direction hoping to not kill the innocents surrounding.

I personally would choose option B. Obviously there is something wrong when a group of civilians are standing with an armed individual who is about to be engaged by one of the best armies in the world. If I was standing with him I would be out. That's just me though and I am sure if they wanted to run they would be shot dead by Hamas.

I would also like to leave you with a link.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-...rael+Since.htm

Those are just attacks post 1993, that is not even including numerous rocket attacks. I have videos with evidence of that PRE-LATE 2008 Gaza conflict.

1st true...2nd I don't know about that...look how disproportionate the numbers are for Palestine compared to Israel deaths....I am not saying Israel is killing civilians on purpose, but with this many casualties they are far from getting anymore support. Look around the world...this is not the answer to stop the violence there...

Look at Gaza... one of the more densely populated areas and you have people that Hamas has not built shelters for.. you cannot blame Israel for killing civilians when if Hamas is the government they are responsible for the civilians. Lately I am seeing a lot of Palestinians more pissed that the Hamas leaders are hidden nice and snug in bunkers with food and electricity, or the founder in Syria chilling in 5 star hotels while they are taking the shit storm from the IDF. Israel did not vote Hamas into office, they did. They continued rocket attacks after the pull out of Gaza, then when the blockade was put in effect because they continuously shot rockets you would think they would come to some type of common sense that they would realize OHHH THATS WHY ISRAEL BLOCKADED US, MAYBE JUST MAYBE IF WE SMUGGLE BABY FOOD INSTEAD OF ROCKETS THEY WILL LIFT THE BLOCKADE. If Hamas was smuggling baby food into Gaza and Medical supplies into Gaza and showing Israel look we are creating the best government we can please lift the blockade so we can help our people, Israel would most likely lift the blockade. Attacking a sovereign nation that possesses one of those most elite armies in the world is not such a good idea, this is just training for many of the units inside of Gaza. Once the reserve units are fully embedded in Gaza Hamas is going to be dealing with a shit storm because they all have been in HEAVY combat.

Hence the "Name" ........... but in the end very High Maintenance .... the actual ownership was much higher then a Bimmer .......:D but the ride was awesome ........

Was it airstruts?:rofl:

Actually ..... it was adjustable ..... dial mode to 5 different settings :thumbup:

That is a lie.

Hamas stopped the rocket attacks for 6 months during the cease-fire, and Israel did not ease any of the restrictions.

hey Eric i can verify 100% they did not, I was in Southern Israel over the summer for over a week staying at a friend's house and 5 out of the 7 days I was there I spent time in the bomb shelter. Do not try to prove facts you have no knowledge on.

As long as we are talking about terrorism and Israel, I'm surprised (no I'm actually not) that someone hasn't posted something about the Levon Affair....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

The Lavon Affair refers to the scandal over a failed Israeli covert operation in Egypt known as Operation Susannah, in which Israeli military intelligence planted bombs in Egyptian, American and British-owned targets in Egypt in the summer of 1954 in the hopes that "the Muslim Brotherhood, the Communists, 'unspecified malcontents' or 'local nationalists'" would be blamed.[1] It became known as the Lavon Affair after the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon, who was forced to resign because of the incident, or euphemistically as the Unfortunate Affair (Hebrew: העסק הביש‎, HaEsek HaBish). Israel admitted responsibility in 2005 when Israeli President Moshe Katzav honored the nine Egyptian Jewish agents who were involved.[2]

I thought that was an Elton John song.

Every rocket that comes out of Gaza is not a Hamas rocket. During the 6 month cease fire Islamic Jihad continued to fire rockets, and a number of their leaders were arrested and even put in jail by the Hamas government.

http://open.salon.com/files/2009-01-...1231723985.jpg

The source of this chart is the Israeli consulate in NYC. As you can see, after the first 2 months of the cease-fire, Hamas did a pretty darn good job of stopping rocket fire, even considering they don't have the tools that most governments and law-enforcement agencies have.

Another lie.

Hamas has agreed to the terms of the Arab Peace Initiative which including recognizing Israel's right to exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

From your own reference Eric

Hamas
From its inception in 2002, the initiative deeply divided the organization.[2] Its official covenant advocates the destruction of the state of Israel and its replacement by a theocratic run under Islamist principles with Jerusalem as the capital.[16] Hamas' spokesman Ismail Abu Shanab told The San Francisco Chronicle in April 2002 that the organization would accept it, saying "That would be satisfactory for all Palestinian military groups to stop and build our state, to be busy in our own affairs, and have good neighborhood with Israelis."[16] The newspaper reporters who interviewed Shanab questioned whether or not he truly spoke for the administration and could not collaborate his story.[16] Hamas' foreign minister Mahmoud al-Zahar said in June 2006 that the organization rejects the initiative.[2] Then Prime Minister Ismail Haneya said on October 2006 that the "problem with the Arab peace initiative is that it includes recognition of the state of Israel, the thing that the Palestinian government rejects" and dismissed it.[17]

Furthermore:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Don't try to contradict my information.. I can quote wikipedia too:

After coming to power, some Hamas leaders have announced that Hamas was giving up suicide attacks and "offered a 10-year truce [with Israel] in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem.

Israel gives Hamas everything they want and Hamas will cease fire for 10 years.... Read it.. Learn it..

B-Line, all I got to say bro, is thank G-d you have enough time on your hands to contradict, refute, and quote news sources. It takes a lot of patience to explain away the pro-Hamas, self-loathing nonsense spewed forth by X5 World's resident nut-job. Kudos to you for setting the facts straight! :thumbup:

i have friends who seem to think hamas is a good group :(
try as i might to show them otherwise, once their mind is set, much like cement, its pointless

the problem these days is that one man can make a difference (with a few pounds of c4 trapped to their waist)

:2thumbs:

Here I though it was pretty much common sense but it appears Eric's radical ideology blinds him from the truth much like that of the Hamas extremists.

Good point B... Thanks

small explosive charges not full on bombs eric.

From an Israeli newspaper:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1143498880914

The Hamas-led Palestinian government will accept the Saudi Initiative, thereby recognizing Israel, MK Taleb A-Sanaa told The Jerusalem Post Wednesday, following a meeting with Hamas parliamentarians.



Hamas agreed to accept the Peace Initiative in 2006. Yes, individuals in Hamas have denounced it as you pointed out above, but the organization as a whole agreed to accept it after receiving quite a bit of pressure from the Arab League.

Every government or political group is going to have people who disagree. If I were to ask you if the Republicans support the bailout plan for the banks, what would your answer be?

I know you want to believe that Hamas is this incredibly tight organization and that everyone in the group agrees on everything, but the reality is quite the opposite. There is quite a bit of infighting. If Israel was smart, they would accept the offer and thus drive a wedge between the various groups. Most of the Palestineans do support the peace process, and if Israel was to agree to peace, the extremist groups would lose their support among the population.

In any case, you will see that the current offensive in Gaza is going to fail. They will not achieve the stated goal of stopping the rockets. According to today's news reports, 35 rockets were fired into Israel yesterday. That's more than the entire 4 month period from July-October. Anything short of complete genocide of the Palestineans is not going to stop the rockets unless they agree on a peace plan.

First all, I don't agree with your obscure fact checking. I can find several sources that agree with my research and your link and references don't even work.. Smells like more bullshit to me.

Secondly, how dare you to presume that you know what is and is not smart for Israel. You live in a cushy little suburb with parents who probably still feed you off the tit. The closest you've ever lived to conflict is the ass whopping you probably received daily in high school for being moronic.

And even if your research is correct, that means that only a small group of people would actually agree to recognize Israel while the rest of the Palestine groups would continue to attack even though there has been peace with one section of Hamas.

ERIC, get it through your thick head. NO ONE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, not even the countries Israel has a truce with, want to see the existence and success of a Jewish state.

The violence will not stop, the terrorism will not stop, until Israel has been completely destroyed. And if Israel can't get a strong majority to negotiate with, then there is no negotiating. Hamas will die down and some other, PLO, NAZI, TALIBAN, AL QUAEDA will start up where Hamas left off. The only difference being, Israel will have weakened itself by dealing with one small part of one small group.

This is not a war between Israel and Hamas. This is a war between Israel and everyone who wants to see Israel destroyed. And even if you can get 40% of the Arab world to recognize Israel, the other 60% will not.

And no matter how much you think that giving in to terrorist demands will create stability and peace in the Middle East, IT WON'T. It will only further encourage new generations of terrorists to try to further destroy Israel.

Israel needs to continue doing what it has been doing. Retaliate and destroy until their enemies leaders who continue to attack Israel are destroyed, along with their network of suppliers.

Eric,
Why don't you just once, write an essay where you suggest that Hamas should stop launching rockets at Israel... Or is that too mainstream for your opinion?

:iagree: I really cant understand Eric why you still believe that you can negotiate with terrorists. YOU CAN'T NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS!

I don't think you can negotiate with Eric either. His head is so brainwashed with propaganda he reads on the internet it just does not seem possible.

Please define "terrorists". Give a solid definition too. Obviously we cannot get inside people's heads and know what they are thinking, so give a definition that defines terrorists based on their actions, not on what your opinion of their thoughts are. Obviously if we cannot negotiate with terrorists, we need to know who exactly are terrorists and who are not.

Isn't that where most people's points come from??

Eric 'terrorist' is whatever they want it to be... If an Israeli would go blow himself up right now in Gaza he'd prolly be considered a terrorist...or anyone else for that matter...

Look on the bright side US doesn't look as bad anymore, even tho we support Israel's actions...

:confused:
Dude, how about we not play dumb, OK?? If a young guy straps C4 to his belly and comes up to your family in a crowded shopping mall and blows your parents, your kids, and everyone else in a 50-foot radius indiscriminately to Kingdom Come, that ain't no "freedom fighter" (as much as you may try to rationalize it in your warped mind). That's a terrorist. Indiscriminate targeting of civilians with intent of killing and maiming.

A GPS-guided munition from an F-16 lands in a mosque believed by intel to house Hamas militants firing rockets, but instead it wipes out an innocent Palestinian family taking shelter there: NOT terrorism. Unfortunate?? Extremely. Tragic?? Most definitely. Terrorism?? Absolutely not.

The reason? Because INTENT MATTERS.

In-discriminate targeting of civilians so that surviving civilians are terrorized about future in-discriminate targeting: that's terrorism.

Targeting of combatants who are trying to inflict lethal harm to your own civilians forces: not terrorism. Even if that targeting leads to inevitable collateral damage such as civilian deaths.

Don't try to take a simple and obvious term like "terrorism", and turn it into a philosophical and moral equivalence to legitimate targrting of combatants, which on occasion leads to innocent bystanders getting caught in the crossfire. ESPECIALLY when the combatants fire away and then take refuge behind those civilians.

Most democracies on Earth do not have a problem with defining this term. Only YOU seem to have a problem with "terrorism" definition, and try to give them a "freedom-fighter" tag. Just about every Democratic government recognizes terrorism when it happens.

To begin with, let's leave nationality and religion out of this equation. Terrorism is obviously terrorism regardless what what religion or nationality someone is and what religion or nationality the victims are. I know it's difficult for you, but please try to give examples without including that.

In the above example, what if instead of a GPS-guided munition from an F-16, they used an over-the-shoulder rocket?

So let me use your example, but change just that:

An over-the-shoulder rocket lands in a facility believed to house military hardware, but instead it wipes out an innocent family taking shelter there.

Is that terrorism?

So let me see if I understand you correctly. If Palestinean forces fire rockets at an Israeli military checkpoint and civilians are killed in the process, then that would not be considered terrorism, right? Those civilians would be considered "collateral damage" since the target was of military nature? Am I understanding you correctly?


Or are you instead saying this:

Any Palestinean attack on Israelis is terrorism because Palestineans are automatically terrorists, but any Israeli attack on Palestineans is NOT terrorism because Israelis are not terrorists. Is this more in line with what you are trying to say?

A couple more examples I'm unsure about:

If the attackers detonate a bomb next to a naval ship, thus sinking the ship, and no civilians are killed, is that terrorism?


What if a politician is the target, they bomb his civilian residence to kill him and in the process 50 other civilians are also killed. Is this terrorism?

Terrorist: Definition - :explode:Bwhahahahahahaha!!!!!

Nationality and religion were used in the context of what is going on currently in the Middle East. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yeah, I think you understand just fine, let's not play dumb. Yes, Palestinian forces firing on an Israeli military checkpoint or an armored convoy with the intent of killing Israeli soldiers only: not terrorism. If civilians are in the vicinity (unbeknownst to the Palestinian militants) and get killed in the crossfire, not terrorism. It ain't pretty. It doesn't make it fine. But it's not terrorism. It does not "terrorize", because civilians are not being intentionally and indiscriminately targeted. If civilians are being intentionally targeted, but NOT indiscriminately (i.e. specific non-combatants are targeted), that is murder. Morally reprehensible, but still not at the lowest and most depraved level of a terrorist attack. I'm trying to be even-handed and not assign nationality or religion to specific tactics. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that both strategically and tactically Hamas is a terrorist outfit in its heart and in its soul. And interestingly, I am sure they would not deny it. They relish the blowing to bits of innocent children and families. The more, the better. I never said all Palestinians are terrorists. That's just you throwing out the race card when you have no other card to play, typical ploy on your part.

To define something based solely on action and not on "thought" was a loaded and un-educated way for you to pose the question. All criminal jurisprudence is based on both action endpoint AS WELL AS the thought process and intent of the perpetrator. INTENT is the difference between 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, and involuntary manslaughter. It's also the difference between misdemeanor assault and aggravated assault.

:popcorn:

Well said mate! Well said!

hmmmm...Lemme guess: Eric is researching right now for his "counter-attack"! hehehehe

I guess i better sleep now and wait till tomorrow to find out what's on eric's mind!

Ok...then we agree on this.

I just get annoyed when people throw the word terrorism out there for everything that they don't agree with. You have people calling attacks on US troops in Iraq terrorism when it is most certainly an attack on a foreign army (i.e. military target) in a hostile country that they invaded. All this does is confuse and make the word terrorism become meanlingless or becomes a way to say "bad guys". It should be used correctly and only when it does indeed apply.

You seem somewhat knowledgable, so I'm sure you probably know this, but I'll just add that history is not without a sense of irony with regard to Israel. Irgun and Lehi, the two Zionist groups that lead the fight for the state of Israel in the 1930s and 1940s were both terrorist groups and both waged campaigns of bombings and attacks of mostly civilians targets including passenger trains, buses, and the famous King David Hotel. Hundreds of civilians were killed over the 10-15 year period that these groups waged their war. Do you believe in Karma? (I don't, but certainly seems like it played a part here).



The problem is that INTENT can be manipulated. Osama bin Laden can tell the millions of people in Pakistan and Afghanistan that trust him that George Bush's INTENT is to kill all Muslims, thus making him a terrorist in their eyes. And Bush can tell the millions of Americans that trust him that Osama bin Laden's INTENT is to kill all Americans. Yet we all know (well, maybe not ALL of us) that neither statement is true. As civilians are almost always killed during a war, anyone's INTENT can be manipulated to look like terrorism. Then we are back to the word "terrorism" completely losing it's meaning. In that context, one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Remember when Reagan used to call the Nicaraguan Contras "freedom fighters" in his speeches?? Did you ever read about the Contras? Over 30,000 civilians died from their attacks on civilian targets in a 5 year period. How many Israelis have died from Palestinean attacks in the past 5 years? Maybe 50? 100?

The Contras were surely the worst terrorist organization worldwide in the past 30 years. And our government supported them. Does that make the US a state sponsor of terror?

Last year in another thread on this board, this issue came up and I was told by someone that the Contras were not terrorists since they were fighting against a communist government. Apparently this person thinks terrorism is ok as long as their attacks on civilian targets are in a communist country.


The point I'm trying to make here is that these issues are never black and white like everyone in this thread is trying to paint them. We don't live in a mickey mouse world where every conflict is "good" vs. "evil". You need to realize that most situations fall somewhere in the middle, and rarely in a war is either side the "good guys". 99% of the time, both sides are at fault in some way or another. War is like a bar fight. If you get into a bar fight, I don't care if the other guy started, you are still an idiot.

BTW, I can think of a certain historical attack where the INTENT was to kill thousands of civilians, and it fits all of your above criteria for being a terrorist attack, yet I'm pretty sure you will say it was NOT a terrorist attack....

http://www.skeptically.org/sitebuild...shima-bomb.jpg

Gaza death toll passed 1000 with 5000 injured...this is just insane...

:rolleyes:

In a mutual state of fully declared war :tsk:

Is Hamas not in a mutual state of fully declared war with Israel? I'd say so.

Did someone say that war strengthens extremist groups? :dunno:


http://www.reuters.com/article/world...50M3OB20090123

War boosted extremists in Gaza, says U.N. official

GENEVA (Reuters) - Israel's invasion of Gaza has strengthened the hand of extremists and only a credible independent investigation into alleged wrongdoing can quieten growing Palestinian anger, a U.N. aid official said on Friday.

Sorry bro, that's a retarded way of looking at it. How about this instead: Hamas rocket fire has stopped (for now) and my friends and relatives in Ashkelon and Ashdod can go about their lives and not run to bomb shelters every hour.

How about this: The Israeli government and IDF did their job, and forced Hamas into a cease-fire. Sure, Hamas still has rockets, but they also know that if they start firing again, they'll get smacked again...just as hard...

How ABOUT THIS: The first job of any government, IMHO, is to protect its' citizens. Obviously you do not feel that way. But then again, you did not have a rocket expode 200 meters from your house, like my cousin did.
The Israelis went in to stop the rocket fire on their civilians. And the rocket fire has stopped. Short-term objective accomplished.

Sure enough accomplished...with about 1300 dead...but I guess nobody cares about that...we can call it a success. :rolleyes:

They achieved their short term objective at the expense of the long-term objective, which is to have lasting peace. They have made Hamas more popular among the Palestinean population.

They could have stopped the rocket fire on their civilians if they had simply agreed to allow humanitarian supplies into Gaza, as that was the original terms of the 6 month cease-fire, and was the reason that Hamas did not renew the cease-fire. Now it looks like they are going to be pressured into doing that anyway, so the war and all those killed ends up being for nothing.

The reason Hamas did not renew the cease-fire is because they finally finished re-arming and re-stockpiling their weapons. That was the only reason they agreed to the initial cease-fire, not because they suddenly felt a wave of goodwill and peace towards Israel. Once they finished re-arming, the rocket fire began, which in turn forced the IDF to put a stop to it. Which they did.

Why do you repeatedly, and un-ashamedly insist on giving a self-proclaimed murder organization the benefit of the doubt in their every move and every gesture?? Who are you trying to convince of Hamas' peaceful intentions (besides your one forum groupie Dannyell)??
Hamas' charter and purpose of being is the destruction of the state of Israel, NOT peaceful co-existence. They make no secret of this, and they are shunned by every Western government as a non-cooperative, uneducated, repressive outfit which commits atrocities against not only Israelis, but against their own people. Whether its hiding behind schools and hospitals when they shoot their rockets (using Palestinian civilians as human shields), or shooting their own Palestinian males in the head (on-sight summary executions for "suspected collaborators". No trial, just a bullet in the head). Yet you insist on excusing their actions and blaming the Israelis for doing the most basic task of government: protecting their citizenry from murder. You insist on fabricating peaceful motives for Hamas' every move, which they themselves openly reject.

The "lasting peace" of which you speak cannot be accomplished as long as Hamas has the reins of power in Gaza. Their "polularity" among the Palestinian population is a fabricated image that they are thrusting onto the media outlets. In reality, their "popularity" is highly questionable, since they have brutally repressed the multitude of moderate voices among the Palestinians. The moderates who understand that firing rockets at their neighbor will only bring back more misery, but are afraid to speak up for fear of a Hamas death squad showing up at their door.

If you believe that, then not only have you read absoutely nothing about the cease-fire, but there is no point in discussing this any further.

BTW, I'll just add that this was their purpose for being created in the first place. So they have indeed achieved that goal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsLw7AiFsK8


Hamas was created by the Mossad to surpress the moderate Palestinean voices and thus make the Palestineans appear to all be extremists. Mossad agents recruited the most extreme individuals and helped to organize them against the more moderate PLO.

Fox News aired a nice program about this last month.

Those Mossad boys should be happy as not only did they discredit the PLO, but Hamas is much more popular today among Palestineans than is the PLO. Great job! :thumbup:

I'm sure the Inteligence chief who thought this one up is considered an Israeli hero! He belongs right up there with William Casey, the CIA chief who helped Osama bin Laden recruit and train the Mujahadeen terrorists in Afghanistan in the late 1970s.

Kind of reminds you of how the FBI used to provoke riots at Civil Rights marches in order to make King and the SCLC look violent.

Our leaders are not able to see more than 2 days into the future. The word "blowback" is an understatement.

Hey, I thought you said "there is no point in discussing this any further"???:rolleyes: But I guess you just have to have the last word on everything!

You are obviously loathsome of Israel and everything it stands for. My job here was not convince YOU otherwise, but to help the other Forum members dissect through your pro-Hamas BS.

Mossad, like any other intelligence agency in the world, have had their stellar moments, and their not-so-stellar moments. But overall, they are an elite outfit without whom Israel would have ceased to exist a long time ago. Many of their operations have been nothing short of brilliant, epitomized by the capture of Eichmann in Buenos Aires.

As for the CIA and William Casey, I think supporting the Mujahadeen against the Soviets WAS a fantastic move. It was the beginning of the end of the Cold War, and forced the Soviets to admit defeat and pull out of Afghanistan. Two years later, the Soviet Union ceased to exist. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20-20, and you can now play Mr. Prophet and say "I told you so", with regard to Bin Laden. But I do not view the arming of the Mujahadeen during the early 80s Cold War as a failure. It accomplished the goal.

moshe cohen , soldier in the paratroopers unit of the IDF.(here becouse i have the e70).
i read alot of what you said here and the only thing i have to say to you is that you CANT see from there
the things we understand from here.
the hate of the arab people to jews from the age of time is something that you cant understand.

shortly, the deffrence between us and them is simply that they dont want the jewish people to exist at all.

i have alot to say but its too much for the forum.
thank you

moshe, toda ach sheli! Para's did a great job man, I have a cousin in givati 2 in Golani and a good friend just finished his gibbush for sayeret. Many of the people on forums do not understand that we HAVE to protect ourselves or we would get driven to the sea.

It could have been done in ways in which would not attracted so much protest around the world and with less casualties...

it really couldnt of been done any other way, and I do not think a cease fire should have been initiated until hamas was extinct.

Not certain this is the thread for this, but an interesting snippet from
a recent Friedman column. Edited by yours truly, though the paragraphs
pasted are not fiddled with...link below has entire column.
BR,mD

...
Where to begin?

Palestinians are now divided between the West Bank and Gaza, with a secular Palestinian Authority based in Ramallah in the West Bank and a fundamentalist Hamas government based in Gaza. But Hamas is further divided between a military and political wing, and the political wing is further divided between a Gaza-based leadership and a Damascus-based leadership, with the latter taking orders from both Syria and Iran.

Are you still with me?

Best I can tell, the Palestinians from Gaza are simultaneously negotiating a cease-fire with Israel in Cairo, pursuing war-crimes charges against Israel in Europe, digging new tunnels in the Sinai to smuggle more rockets into Gaza to hit Tel Aviv and trying to raise money for reconstruction from Iran. Meanwhile, the West Bank Palestinian leaders are busy publicly collecting food and blankets to help all those Palestinian civilians brutalized by the Israeli incursion into Gaza, while privately demanding to know from senior Israeli officials why they wimped out and didn’t wipe Hamas in Gaza off the face of earth — casualties be damned.

Israel, meanwhile, has a government in which the prime minister, foreign minister and defense minister each has a different peace plan, war strategy and cease-fire conditions for Gaza, and the foreign minister and defense minster are running against each other in Israel’s election on Tuesday. Speaking of that election, a whole new party, Yisrael Beiteinu, led by Avigdor Lieberman, which has been accused of having “fascist,” viciously anti-Arab leanings, appears headed to make the biggest gains and possibly become the kingmaker of Israel’s next government. The other day, the Labor Party leader, Ehud Barak, was quoted in the newspaper Haaretz as criticizing Lieberman as a lamb in hawk’s clothing, asking: “When has he ever shot anyone?”

How did this conflict get so fragmented? For starters, it’s gone on way too long. The West Bank is so chopped up and divided now by roads, checkpoints and fences to separate Israel’s crazy settlements from Palestinian villages that a Palestinian could fly from Jerusalem to Paris quicker than he or she could drive from Jenin, here in the northern West Bank, to Hebron in the south.

Another reason is that every idea has been tried and has failed. For the Palestinians, Pan-Arabism, Communism, Islamism have all come and gone, with none having delivered statehood or prosperity. As a result, more and more Palestinians have fallen back on family, clan, town and tribal loyalties. In Israel, Peace Now’s two-state solution was blown up with the crash of the Oslo peace accords, the rising Palestinian birthrate made any plans to annex the West Bank a mortal threat to Israel’s Jewish character, and the rockets that followed Israel’s withdrawals from both Lebanon and Gaza made a mockery of those who said unilateral pullouts were the solution.

All of this has led to a resurgence of religiosity. According to Haaretz, the following questions were posed by a well-known rabbi in one of the pamphlets distributed by the Israeli Army’s Office of Chief Rabbi before the latest Gaza fighting: “Is it possible to compare today’s Palestinians to the Philistines of the past? And if so, is it possible to apply lessons today from the military tactics of Samson and David? A comparison is possible because the Philistines of the past were not natives and had invaded from a foreign land.” ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/op...4friedman.html

Good article. :thumbup:

If I were an Israeli leaving in Israel, I really dont give a rat's rump what the rest of the world thinks of us fighting to survive and not get annihilated. If the tables were turned and all of us here in the states living in our comfy homes and driving X5's and enjoying peace and prosperity and freedom, suddenly wake up in Israel in the middle of all this, I don't think we would care what the rest of the world thinks! A man's gotta do what he's gotta do, and I respect Israel for that.

And what would you do if you were a Palestinean living in Gaza?

i would have voted for a government that would not attack a sovereign nation...

I agree 100%! Clearly you didn't vote for George W. Bush then! (Iraq, Liberia, Haiti) :thumbup:


But as we know, in a democracy we each only have one vote. I guess the more important question is this:

If your government (which you did not vote for but the majority of your fellow citizens did) did indeed attack a sovereign nation, and that nation responded back with deadly force that resulted in the death of one of more family members, would you blame your own government, or would you blame the country that attacked you?

depends what the reason of attack was. If we just blatantly launched an attack then yes i would blame the government, HOWEVER you must realize sovereign nations fight on a battle field not behind their civilians, that is the problem with fighting terrorists such as the insurgents in Iraq and Gaza aswell as Lebanon in 2006, and if you had an Military knowledge you would understand that however you just want to side with any conspiracy theory that pops up when you open your email.

I'll add a few more to your list:

1) French resistance fighting the Nazis during WWII

2) Viet Cong fighting the French in the 1950s and later on the Americans in the 1960s and 1970s

3) Mujahadeen fighting the Russians in Afghanistan in the 1980s

4) Irgun (the Zionist Jewish rebels in Palestine) fighting against the British in the 1940s

5) African National Congress fighting the Apartheid governments in South Africa and Rhodesia (Zimbabwe)


It's called guerrilla warfare, and many groups you both approve of and don't approve of have done it. When you don't like them, you call them terrorists, and when you do like them, you call them freedom fighters. It involves surprise attacks on your enemy and on the establishment in order to create chaos, and then blending back into the popuation so you cannot be found. It always results in civilian deaths and destruction to the general infrastructure.

Whether or not it is a good thing or not is for another discussion. But don't be selective about it. Either you are for it or against it. As for myself, I am against it. I think the methods of Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. produce far better results. But obviously most of the world does not agree.

you use a regurgitated ideology, you have no experience in the middle east and express idiotic opinions. when you give your home back to the native americans we will give ours back. I am done arguing with you.

Ok...here is some things specifically on the Middle East:

Have you ever hear of Irgun?

90% of those who fought in the 1947 Independence War for the state of Israel were member of Irgun. Irgun's leader was Menachem Begin, who was the first Prime Minister of Israel.

Irgun was a terrorist group. They blew up trains, busses, buildings, etc. Their attacks were primarily on civilian targets, the goal being to cause chaos.

This is from the above article:

In 1948, The New York Times published a letter signed by a number of prominent Jewish figures including Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook, and Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, which described Irgun as a "a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine". The letter went on to state that Irgun and the Stern gang "inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and widespread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute."

Soon after World War II, Winston Churchill said "we should never have stopped immigration before the war", but that the Irgun were "the vilest gangsters" and that he would "never forgive the Irgun terrorists."



I've heard similar claims made by you against Hamas. As much as it pains you to face reality, they are 99% the same, and any student of history simply has to laugh at Israel's current stance on terrorism. The state formed by terrorists is against terrorism. How ironic.

Fighting to survive?? that is what you call rockets that land in Israel from the Palestinian side?

Ok first of all international humanitarian laws were breached and that will need attending to....no matter what the reason

Secondly it would have been a different story if a 3rd party would have been involved....Israel did the best it could to keep anyone out including the media from showing what really happened and how...

Wonderful Job Israel....all they did was help Hamas. :doh:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f46a4146-f...0779fd2ac.html

Gaza offensive boosted Hamas, poll concludes

By Tobias Buck in Jerusalem

Palestinian support for the Islamist Hamas movement has soared in the wake of Israel's three-week offensive against the Gaza Strip, according to a poll released yesterday.


The survey, by the independent Jerusalem Media and Communications Center, also found that the majority of Palestinians thought the group had emerged victorious from the conflict. Almost one in two Palestinians said Hamas won the Gaza war, while less than 10 per cent said Israel had triumphed.

The finding is at striking odds with Israeli perceptions of the conflict. The government called an end to the military campaign on January 17, claiming the offensive against the Hamas controlled Gaza Strip had achieved its goals by weakening the group, curbing rocket attacks and restoring Israel's power of deterrence.

Yesterday's poll found that Palestinians in the West Bank were more convinced of a Hamas victory than their counterparts in the Gaza Strip, where more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed and thousands of buildings destroyed by Israeli forces. In Gaza, 48 per cent said neither Israel nor Hamas won the war, and only 35 per cent said Hamas was the victor. In the West Bank, 53 per cent said Hamas won, while 31 per cent said neither side was victorious.

A good reason for a future invasion I guess...I mean you have to be mentally challenged to think that such an invasion with +1300 death and thousands injured would weaken support for Hamas...but I doubt thats what they were aiming for...

:bustingup :bustingup :thumbup: so true

How else can he express his undying hatred of Israel and everything it stands for?? He will side with Hamas and defend their tactics with any chance he gets, using extremely twisted and convoluted arguments of moral equivalence. But you have to realize, this is the same individual that's trying to convince us that Al-Qaeda tried to MINIMIZE casualties on 9/11, by crashing into the towers BEFORE 9 AM.

:thud: :thud:

I resent that you say I side with Hamas or support their tactics. I did nothing of the sort.

You know during the civil rights movement in the 1960s, Malcolm X and many other civil rights leaders called Dr. King an "uncle tom" and said he was siding with the white man by preaching non-violence methods of resistance.

There is a difference between siding with Hamas, and thinking that the best way to defeat Hamas is through peaceful methods.

I believe fighting Hamas only makes them stronger. I think the methods you support help Hamas. If anything it is you who side with Hamas. As is evidenced by the article I just posted last night, the attacks which you supported have greatly helped Hamas. Good job! :thumbup: If I were Hamas, I would hope that people like you decide future Israeli policy.

In the last 20 years, the only Israeli policy that has hurt Hamas was the signing of the Oslo Accords. Following the signing of that peace treaty, Hamas approval ratings among Palestineans dropped below 10% and for the 5 years following that treaty, there was not a single attack by Hamas on anyone. Perhaps you should take a lesson from that in deciding what policies you support, unless you do indeed support Hamas.

For someone who claims to support Israel, you sure don't act like it. You act like someone who wants Israel to be in a war with no end, and would be pleased with such a war. How many more Israelis and Palestineans have to die before you are happy? How much higher does Hamas' approval rating have to go before you are happy? If it reaches 90% would that be high enough, or do you think Israel should aim for a perfect 100%?

This confirms that they are delusional, naive and so out of touch with reality that any negotiation going forward is pointless. Let them have their victory at the end of a sword.

Originally Posted by Eric5273
Oh really Eric? Let's see:

You've just spent countless hours at the keyboard giving justification for Hamas' every deed, on this thread (and on others). You give justification for their morally reprehensible tactics, while bashing Israel's attempt to defend her citizens from indiscriminate rocket fire. You refuse to call Hamas "terrorists", even though I took your bait and clearly defined the term for you earlier. And now, all of a sudden, you deny that you are siding with them???!!:rolleyes: Puh-leeze! You can't have it both ways. Your moral compass is skewed 180 degrees. You have condemned Israel at every opportunity, on this thread and on others. You cry foul at their every attempt to protect their citizenry. And what makes these condemnations truly shameful, is that you being Jewish, YOU of all people fail to understand that 70 years ago (before Israel) it would have been YOUR ass in the ovens along with every other Jew.

What you present as "evidence" of Hamas' popularity is not "evidence". It is hearsay. I'm sure if Stalinist Russia took a poll of Stalin's popularity, his approval rating would be 99.9% (with the 0.1% of disapprovers being taken out back and promptly disposed of). Hamas rules through terror, not only of Israelis, but of their own people. So there can be no true "poll" to get inside the mind of Plaestinian civilians. The real "evidence" here is physical, and clear as day for the world to see: the rocket fire into Israel has stopped. Because Israel did what they had to do, and what any sovereign nation would do in that situation.

I never gave justification for a single thing they did. If you claim that I did, then please point out the post number and quote where I said they were justified for what they did.\

I simply have pointed out over and over that Israel's strategy is not protecting their people, but instead actually helping Hamas grow stronger. If Israel wants to protect their people, they need a major change in strategy.


Hamas does not rule or have any control in the West Bank. In fact, Hamas rallies are outlawed in the West Bank and many Hamas leaders have been put in prison there. Yet the poll taken shows more people in the West Bank think Hamas won the war than in Gaza. Furthermore, the poll was not taken by Hamas. It was taken by an anti-Hamas, pro-Fatah group based in Jerusalem.

And what would that strategy be Eric? Give in to all the demands of the terrorists HOPING that the terrorists would not wipe Israel out of the face of the earth? Im all ears here Eric...(or should I say all eyes...) :tapping:

Absolutely not. You do what needs to be done to DECREASE the popularity and influence of the terrorists.

The Palestineans want their own country. If Israel wants there to be peace, then they have to demonstrate to the Palestineans that cooperation and peace will bring the Palestineans their own country.

For the past 2 years, there has been peace in the West Bank. Hamas leaders and anyone else that tries to attack Israel has been imprisoned by the Fatah government, and they have done just about everything that Israel has asked. Yet the people in the West Bank are no better off than the people in Gaza, and many Palestineans are starting to grow tired of Fatah's peaceful approach since they do not see it helping any. Fatah will not last much longer in power in the West Bank if they do not produce some visable results for the Palestineans. If they lose power, then Hamas will also control the West Bank.

Israel needs to move forward with a peace plan to grant a Palestinean country in the West Bank. If they do that, then they increase Fatah's popularity and will clearly demonstrate to the Palestineans that the peaceful approach will help them achieve their goals. You will see Hamas' approval ratings go down the toilet, and they will quickly lose power as the people in Gaza turn to Fatah to help them as well.

That is what Israel needs to do. They need to reward those who have been peaceful. You need a "carrot on a stick" approach here.

im really starting to hope your computer dies. Hamas in Gaza kills fatah... as soon as the IDF began their idiotic pull out of Gaza again for this joke of a cease-fire Hamas could be seen shooting Fatah in the legs and torturing them, this is verified by my cousin who is in one of the units that was in Gaza for the long haul. You know how many options for peace have been drawn out? I GUARANTEE YOU if Hamas was smuggling baby food and medicine into Gaza instead of munitions to launch at Israel, the Israel government would have lifted the blockade. Tell my why Egypt is also imposing a blockade on Gaza.. Do you have any idea? Eric you are pathetic, if you went to Gaza you would be killed just as I would. The peace in the West Bank is due to the Military shutting shit for terror networks there is no smuggling. When you travel to Israel or the West Bank I will accept your views however they would most likely change, please check for your birth right trip to Israel since you consider yourself a Jew however do not let them know you dont think Israel deserves the right to exist which is evident in your ignorant posts. You like the college student I shut down at a rally really need to realize that extremists in the Middle East want both of you wiped off the map just as they want me and B-line wiped off the map. SHE HAD FAMILY IN BE'ER SHEVA AND SAID HAMAS WAS RIGHT.... I shut her down by explaining she was supporting the murder of her family, she quickly realized her ignorance and retreated, I wish you would do the same and just not touch a computer or leave your house.

P.S.- Hamas has clearly stated they do not just want a country they want Israel wiped off the map so no matter how much land is given they will not quit.

All the more reason to have policies that will DECREASE Hamas popularity and influence. :thumbup:

GET OFF THE CRACK ROCK ALREADY, there are Hamas leaders who taught in UN schools for upward of 25 years why don't you go bitch to the UN because they are the real terrorists. I am sick of your belligerent postings blatantly accusing Israel of doing all the wrongs. Hamas is a terrorist organization that constricts their people from stating their views, dancing, even men and women being at a party together... Hamas leaders were sitting in their bunkers under hospitals, in schools etc. while their people were being put in harms way by their "martyrs." (most of the dead Hamas were between 14-17) Why dont you take your peace pipe and go ask Hamas to come back some fucking cookies with you and the rest of the left winged pieces of crap... I guarantee that many of you will walk away especially the jews afterall Hamas loves Jews.

Hmm how is giving the territory back will 'wipe off' Israel off the face of the earth?? ... If they are under rocket attack after giving up that land, then they would have all the rights to strike back in the same disproportionate way they did now....until than killing hamas and people in gaza will solve nothing

BOTH OF YOU ARE IDIOTS.... PERIOD. I AM DONE WITH THIS THREAD AND REALLY HOPE IT GETS LOCKED.

ok kid...be done with it

ED: I think you should get locked out of it...calling people names and stuff...:rofl:

:loco:


I do really hope so

http://www.upi.com/Emerging_Threats/...2581234905035/
Outside View: Hamas' challenge to the PLO



Looks like Israel's main accomplishment from their invasion of Gaza will end up being the elimination of Fatah from the equation and have Hamas be in control of the Palestineans. The invasion is all that Hamas needed to gain enough power to pull this off. Fatah, having sat on their hands during the entire ordeal, is looking very weak to most Palestineans these days.

Well Eric,

I have about as much sympathy and support for them as the citizens of Germany who supported Hitler. You keep making excuses for them when we should be holding them responsible for their poor decisions. I guess they will end up dying because they certainly can't win the war with Israel without the help a Nuclear armed Iran. I'll bet you support Iran as well.

Perhaps you guys just aren't intelligent enough to understand who I support. I say it over and over, but it just flows through the ears. :dunno:

I guess Im one of those who "aren't intelligent enough"...so enlighten this poor soul eric. Who do you support?

I support the peace process. I think the problem is the leadership on both sides. Both sides currently have extremist, pro-war, right-wing leadership.

I support whatever will result in the extremists becoming LESS popular with their people so that they elect new, more moderate, leaders. I don't think that Israel's attacks in Gaza will help decrease Hamas' popularity, nor do I think Palestinean rocket attacks will decrease the popularity of Israel's right-wing government. In fact, both seem to have exactly the opposite effect. The more each side attacks, the more the people rally to support the right-wing wackos who run their government. The similarities in how both sides react to attacks is striking.

If you want more specifics, I support Fatah on the Palestinean side, and I support Labor on the Israeli side. Those are the two parties that negotiatied the Oslo Accords in 1993, and those are the parties that presided over the 6 years of peace that followed that treaty. I think they have the track records which best qualify them to negotiate peace. It's just too bad that civilians vote with their emotions rather than with their brain.

The events of the last 90 days have simply caused both sides to want their leaders to be even more extreme. Hamas has increased their popularity, and Israel has gone ahead and elected new leaders who are even bigger war-hawks than the previous corrupt right-wing wackos. This has not helped the peace process at all, and unfortunately the long-term result will be more civilian deaths on both sides.

Do you understand now? I don't know how I can be any more clear. The reason I was against the invasion was NOT because I support Hamas, but was because I am against Hamas and I thought the invasion would help them. And if you read the articles above, it turns out I was right.

LOL!!!!! you are idiotic, israel wants peace we would live in our borders and not bother anyone but they continue therefore Israel must attack back. If you don't show terrorists force then they will walk all over you.

You are naive to think that a nation as powerful as Israel will be 'walked on' unless they show force...WTF is that??

It's so easy for you to justify 1500 people that died in Palestine...and Eric's post clearly shows that Hamas has gained even more support...yet you sit there and brag about how Israel would be trampled on if they don't engage in these kinds of actions??

OK...Had Israel backed down do you really think the Palestinian people would reject Hamas and live in peace with Israel?

The answer is NO...Hamas would have been seen as strong in the face of Israel and the attacks on Israel would have continued with even more fervor. Yes Hamas has more support from the people but what exactly has Hamas have left in terms of infrastructure and the ability to attack? Not much...And the Palestinians who support Hamas will continue to suffer and die as long as that support for Hamas and the hate for Israel continues.

Again...Scores of Germans supported Hitler and also died...Rightfully so.

Ever hear of the intifadas? where on a daily basis suicide bombers went into Israel and put fear into israelis

They did after the signing of the Oslo Accords. Hamas was powerless during the mid-1990s. There was a not a single Hamas attack on Israel from 1993 to 1998, and their approval ratings among Palestineans was lower than 10%. Fatah swept the 1996 elections by a landslide.

Then why does Israel keep building new settlements in the West Bank?

LOL...Yeah Eric there was no violence in the 90's and both sides were holding hands. Hamas was not in power but there was this group called the PLO at that time calling for the destruction of Israel.

There was no attacks on either side from 1993-1998. Not a single one. Fatah is the leading faction of the PLO, and they were calling for peace, and they were the ones who signed the Oslo Accords. They were not calling for the destruction of Israel. The Oslo Accords specifically stated that both sides recognize the other, and that they would both work towards a 2-state solution.

You're right...Not a single attack. There were several. I'm not sure where you are getting your facts.

Again...You blame the evil Jews and the show support for the innocent peace loving Palestinians.

I did no such thing, nor do I believe that. You, on the other hand, think the Palestineans are to blame 100%, and that Israel is not to blame at all.

:dh:

You guys don't get it. No arguing here is going to help Eric see the light.

He is the exact type of Jew who during WWII walked his brethren into the oven with his mouth rapping off propaganda like "If we just do what the Germans ask, they might allow us to live another day. Walk quickly into the showers my fellow Jews.."

Eric, your position on these events are nothing less than nauseating. And while you may claim that you are not PRO PALESTINE/ANTI ISRAEL, nothing about anything you say or do reflects that. There is no sympathy in your words for Israelis. There is no reflection of Israelis doing what they need to survive.

You are nothing less than a vessel that helps further perpetuate hate against Jews around the world and you are too blind to see it.

Nothing you say here does anything to help the Jews of the world except to spread dissension to those who really don't understand what is going on in the Middle East.

You also have no real commitment to any beliefs, other than the belief that everything we think we know in the world is wrong. Your a conspiracy theorist, you are a self loathing Jew and your position that Jews can have peace in the world by giving in to the demands of those that wish to destroy them is extremely laughable and also tragic/unfortunate.

I actually feel bad for you Eric, cause in some ways I know you actually believe your own bullshit. But in the same breath, I also think your distortion of facts and events is a self serving vehicle that lets you troll and incite anger.

Please, do us all a favor. Go spread your self loathing Jew hate somewhere else. It's entirely offensive and self serving.

You have become a puppet for the vessel of the world that hates Jews and you scapegoat them in the same way the Germans did some 60 years ago.

No one here wishes any pain or death on Arabs or Palestinians but your incessant belief that Arabs will stop hating and stop trying to destroy Jews and Israel is nothing less that 100% entirely ignorant.

Stop typing and re-evaluate your life cause as far as I'm concerned, you really are a Jew walking other Jews into the oven..

Very well written.

:iagree: :iagree:
:thanks:

Eric...I blame (hold responsible) any people who elect terrorist leaders such as the Palestinians did with Hamas. Just as I blame Iranians for electing Aqua Velva Jihad. Israel is not a terrorist nation and its leaders right or wrong are doing what they know best to protect Israel. Hamas is motivated by 12th century beliefs and a distorted form of the Koran to carry out the destruction of Israel.

Palestinians had a choice and they chose Hamas.

And the saga continues.... :damn:


Gaza offensive: Israel confronts soldiers' testimony of excessive force | csmonitor.com
Israel's military prosecutor has launched a criminal investigation into the alleged deliberate killing of women, children, and elderly noncombatants.

Tel Aviv, Israel - After repeatedly rebuffing charges of having committed war crimes in its recent war against Hamas in Gaza, Israel has been stunned into a self-examination following the publication of soldier testimony about the use of excessive force against Palestinian civilians.

The Israeli army spokesperson said in a statement Thursday that its military prosecutor has launched a criminal investigation into the alleged deliberate killing of women, children, and elderly noncombatants. It marks the first acknowledgement by Israel of possible misdeeds in a war that left 1,300 Gazans dead, thousands more injured, and billions of dollars worth of property damaged.
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In one instance, soldiers killed a woman and two children at a distance of 100 to 200 yards away because they had misunderstood the army instructions on how to leave the combat zone. Another veteran described an officer who ordered machine-gunners to fire at an elderly woman who was also positioned far away. In the testimony, the soldiers admitted that excessive force was used because the lives of Palestinian civilians were valued far less than those of the soldiers.

Other soldiers described routine vandalism of Palestinian property by units that were holed up in homes.

No surprises there Eric...Probably the reason that Israel didn't allow reporters in that area...

Hopefully justice will be served on both extremities...

i wish both of you just fell of the face of the earth already, you dont need to sit here and try to destroy the jews... we do it to ourselves thats why those shitty reporters are ragging on their own countrymen. Military force is necessary kill or be killed i would rather have some idiot standing next to someone firing mortars at my squad killed than one of my men killed.


both of you go enjoy a cup of tea in Gaza and tell me what you see.

wow now that's an attitude m8...You think this is really about Israel?? War crimes are war crimes no matter which country is involved...

If you honestly think that those soldiers who committed those crimes should be let off the hock then that's your opinion...

And do me a favor...Just because I don't agree with some of the recent actions by the Israel Government does not mean I have something against Jewish people...Get that out of your head...If you can't respect others opinions then maybe you ought to refrain from this topic...

I'll be in philly next week...maybe i'll buy u a beer to make u feel better ;)

Honestly, this thread is completely played out. But I truly believe Eric's strategy is to keep "bumping up" this thread to spread more anti-Israel rants, with Dannyell serving as a willing groupie. So every time I see this, I'm going to keep RE-POSTING B-Line's beautiful, direct, to-the-point summary from February. Here goes:

Right soldiers kill people and its alright because their are from certain countries...

There is no arguing here... Israel's military prosecutor that has launched this investigation...obviously he must know something ...

I'll keep re-posting B-Line's comment unil this played-out thread is closed. You guys can keep beating a dead horse, or you can just chill and move on....:dh: :dh:

lool well played m8