Xoutpost.com - Has anyone done a Transmission filter and fluid change and caused more issues?

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- - Has anyone done a Transmission filter and fluid change and caused more issues? (https://xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e53-forum/100115-has-anyone-done-transmission-filter-fluid-change-caused-more-issues.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny5280 (Post 1031427)

Why do it? In order to keep the transmission working as trouble free as possible. Every other fluid has a change interval...why not this one? Well, this one does have a change interval...10 years according to the document provided.

Today BMW is recommending the transmission fluid be changed at 100K miles. This change interval is in conflict with JCL's opinion.

You completely misunderstand, or purposely try to misstate, my opinion. I have not recommended not following manufacturer's recommendations. I have helped people to better understand transmission fluids and why they matter, what failure modes we have seen, and so on.

This thread was started by a poster who was unclear as to why his independent mechanic didn't want to change his fluid. It didn't fit with what he believed about fluids. The usual reason, relating to subsequent failure, was explained. You said you didn't believe that reason.

If you want to be helpful, just post some failure analysis results for BMW transmissions that point to fluid condition as the cause of failure. Don't just say that all fluids are the same, because it shows your lack of understanding of the role of the fluid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 1031456)

I think you're trying to move the goal posts since BMW has begun (if you want to call an 11 year old recommendation) to recommend changing the transmission fluid. I say this because you wrote:

"They had problems afterwards, most likely due to the high detergent levels in the new fluid (which are there by design) cleaning out the transmission of deposits that weren't hurting anything where they were, but were carried into the valve body, actuators, sensors, etc. Shifting problems result."

If this argument applies to the older models (2000 - 2003, I am unable to find the maintenance schedule for these model years) why would it not apply to the 2004 onward? Is the six speed in the 2004 that much different than the five speed in the previous years?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 1031456)

This thread was started by a poster who was unclear as to why his independent mechanic didn't want to change his fluid. It didn't fit with what he believed about fluids. The usual reason, relating to subsequent failure, was explained. You said you didn't believe that reason.

I do not as there has been no evidence to support it. All that has been provided is conjecture (see your quote above).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 1031456)

If you want to be helpful, just post some failure analysis results for BMW transmissions that point to fluid condition as the cause of failure. Don't just say that all fluids are the same, because it shows your lack of understanding of the role of the fluid.

The burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the one making the claim. Furthermore I did not say all fluids were the same. I clearly said:

"Every other fluid has a change interval..."

Having a change interval is not the same thing as saying all fluids are the same. Please don't misrepresent what I've written.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny5280 (Post 1031458)

If this argument applies to the older models (2000 - 2003, I am unable to find the maintenance schedule for these model years) why would it not apply to the 2004 onward? Is the six speed in the 2004 that much different than the five speed in the previous years?

Of course it is a different transmission. It is a generation newer. Probably has a different filter, too. Definitely uses a different transmission fluid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny5280

I do not as there has been no evidence to support it. All that has been provided is conjecture (see your quote above).

The burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the one making the claim. Furthermore I did not say all fluids were the same. I clearly said:

"Every other fluid has a change interval..."

Having a change interval is not the same thing as saying all fluids are the same. Please don't misrepresent what I've written.

You suggested that all other fluids were the same in that they have a change interval.

Your conjecture is that BMW changed their minds, even when provided information to the contrary. You were asked, as the one making the claim, to show your proof. But you called that juvenile. It is hard to keep up with the spinning you are doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 1031463)

Of course it is a different transmission. It is a generation newer. Probably has a different filter, too. Definitely uses a different transmission fluid.

The new transmission lacks a valve body, actuators, and sensors?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 1031463)

You suggested that all other fluids were the same in that they have a change interval.

I did no such thing. I stated they all had change intervals. That does not imply the fluids are all the same. It states they have some similarities. For example stating they're all fluids does not imply all fluids are the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 1031463)

Your conjecture is that BMW changed their minds, even when provided information to the contrary. You were asked, as the one making the claim, to show your proof. But you called that juvenile. It is hard to keep up with the spinning you are doing.

Your response was juvenile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trader4 (Post 1031464)

The ZF document that says 10 years is not BMW and from what I see
it's dated 1998, before these cars even hit the road. I also pointed out
to you previously that there is exactly one line that I could find in that
whole ZF document about 10 years. You would think there would be a
whole section on the fluid change procedure, changing the filter, etc if
they really intended it to be done. That one line in a repair manual
looks to me like they could be saying that if you're *working* on the tranny, have it apart, then if it's over 10 years you can change it.
Others here
have commented that a 10 year number makes little sense. Some
vehicles will see 50K miles in that time. Others could see 500K miles.
But just a blanket statement about 10 years makes sense to you?
The car manufacturers I have seen that have specified fluid change
intervals do it on miles, not months. And they call it out as a shorter
interval if it's in heavy service use, eg taxi duty, etc. That makes sense,
10 years makes no sense. So, I sure wouldn't hang my hat on that
one sentence.

I'm not putting much weight into it for the same reasons you detailed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trader4 (Post 1031464)

Regarding BMW, can you show us where they are now recommending
fluid changes for these X5's? Is there some service directive? What
are you referring to?

Sure thing. From page three of the 2004 model year (oldest model year for which I can find this documentation) BMW Service and Warranty Information booklet (Reference # 01 00 0 306 678) (I believe this booklet is included with the vehicle as someone earlier in the thread referenced it for his 2006 X5):

The following maintenance elements must
be performed at the mileage/time stated
(time intervals begin from the vehicle’s
production date):

– Brake Fluid Service: Change brake fluid
every two years.
– Oxygen Sensor Service: The oxygen sensor
deteriorates strictly on a mileage basis and
must therefore be replaced every 100,000
miles to maximize vehicle fuel economy
and minimize exhaust pollution. The
replacement of the oxygen sensor is
required under the terms of the applicable
BMW emission system warranties.
– Spark Plug Service: The X5 is equipped
with platinum-tipped spark plugs. These
allow a longer service life than conventional
plugs. Replace spark plugs every
100,000
miles.
– Automatic Transmission Service: Change
ATF every 100,000 miles.

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV...wXkLr.RN6DPiM-

Quote:

Originally Posted by trader4 (Post 1031464)

And regarding that we don't have data on what happens when you
do change the fluid versus when you don't, you're right. But
presumably BMW does and they are the ones that say that the
fluid is lifetime. So, like JCL, I say you're saying BMW is wrong,
you show us your data. I know I've seen enough reports of problems
here and elsewhere to be concerned. And being concerned, I'm
following BMW's recommendation, ie it's lifetime.

I've shown you mine, now you show me yours.

As for saying BMW is wrong do you follow BMW's 15K oil change interval?

Quote:

Originally Posted by trader4 (Post 1031469)

K, I'll go you one better. The 2002 warranty/service booklet also says
100K mile fluid change:

BMW Ultimate Service® - Service & Warranty Books - BMW North America

I looked at earlier and those don't say anything about fluid change at all.
So, I would now agree that BMW has recommended 100K changes since
2002. That covers enough years of the E53 that I now agree with your
position that BMW says 100K.

And, given the 2002 model year uses the same transmission as the 2000 and 2001 model years a reasonable person would conclude BMW changed their minds regarding the lifetime fluid. Furthermore given BMW has recommended a fluid change since 2002 one would have to wonder why they would recommend something JCL says is known to cause transmissions failures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny5280 (Post 1031472)

Because the BMW department that wrote that book is playing the odds, and considering the balance of probabilities. Exactly what has been discussed for some time now.

Edit: I can't look up your service link because I get an unsafe link message. I can look at the online manuals posted on this site (US versions). The 2003 version states it was published in August 2002. The 2006 version states it was published in July 2005. Where is this change? It appears these manuals always stated 100,000 miles in the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny5280 (Post 1031467)

I've shown you mine, now you show me yours.

As for saying BMW is wrong do you follow BMW's 15K oil change interval?

I can't show you my 2003 Canadian service booklet, as I don't have the vehicle any more. And BMW Canada (who publishes different service books than the US) doesn't put theirs on line.

We don't have a 15,000 mile oil change interval in Canada, but we do use a 24,000 km baseline that is adjusted based on vehicle usage so that the service lights come on at different times. I follow the lights and also limit oil change intervals to 24 months or so, so I have gone up very close to 24,000 km. Works well.