Xoutpost.com - Red Battery symbol, then abs dsc please help

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Before we start off the day's postings slagging everyone's automotive knowledge and the source of energy, I would suggest a few simple tests with a volt ohm meter.

AFTER CHARGING THE BATTERY
With the test meter connected to the battery posts, read the voltage_____
With Key in the engine on position, and meter connected to the battery the reading is _________
With meter still connected to the battery, crank the car. What is the LOWEST reading that comes on?___________
Engine running, what is the voltage at the battery?_______

Report back and and we can have a good understanding of the Starting system. This is the FIRST test in checking a starting/charging system. We will stay will volts as I am sure you do not have a carbon pile load tester in your garage that can load 50% of cold cranking amps RATING to the battery after charging 30 mins at 60 amps, or 2 hrs at 10 amps. This test shows battery condition and ability to hold and store energy. Most of the "parts store" employee hand held testers only load 100 amps and call it quits.

By the way, that above test was being done way back in the 40's, 50's, 60's by Sun Electric as the standard baseline for starting systems.

Now with TESTING, not guessing we will determine what is going on and be able to assist the OP.

Now back to flaming :hammer::hammer::fencing::explode:

The battery and the alternator Both provide power to the car electrical system. You can not start an engine on the alternator, but you can run an engine on the alternator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGtw2A4SI1U

Here's an analogy as to how the alternator and battery work. If you filled a bathtub with water and kept the water from the sprout running, but open the drain. Are you bathing using the water from the tub or the sprout?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcredliner (Post 1062506)

While your symptoms sound like an alternator issue I would not buy anything yet.

When you get it home remove the battery cables and clean the posts and the connector. Then charge the battery. If after the battery has been charged your X won't start then have the battery load tested to verify if it is good or bad.

Once the battery is charged or a new one installed unlock the cluster. Read the battery voltage using the cluster. Start it up and read the alternator output.

The reason I am suggesting this process is there are other possible causes for your problem that are unconnected to the battery or the alternator. Best practice is to spend the time to troubleshoot to find the root cause before buying parts.

The the failure of an alternator does not mean the battery is also bad. The failure of a battery does not mean the alternator is going to fail. The life cycles are different.

Alternators are not designed to charge up a dead battery. Using the alternator to charge a dead battery will shorten the life of an alternator.

https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-u...ead-batteries/

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfoj (Post 1062500)

You are absolutely wrong about this and I have no idea where you learned anything about automotive charging systems. Automotive charging systems in basic theory have not changed significantly for over 100 years. In the past 20 years there have been some variations to how the systems work, but the primary purpose of the battery is to start the engine as well as stabilize and filter the charging system, which powers the vehicle electrically components. Why do you think that majority of alternators today are typically between 120 and 200 Amp? When was the last time you say a battery charged at 120+ Amps?

There are a few vehicles that are designed to draw from the battery as a fuel saving measure, but this is only under very controlled situations. My GMC truck does occasionally draw directly from the battery and some of the Mazda Skyactive systems do some similar things. But again, these are very specific situations and the alternator does kick back in to handle the bulk of the electrical load on the vehicle.

Let me ask this basic question, IF a fully charged Lead/Acid battery has a terminal Voltage of 12.6 Volts, why do you find the majority of the vehicles operating at 13.5-14.5 Volts? Where do you think this additional power is coming from?

Maybe you are confusing where power connections are made, this is a very different story and a power connection is not necessarily the source of the energy.

I just do not understand how people can think this is accurate information.

So did you have any formal Automotive Training?
Did you ever make a living repairing vehicles?
Were you ever a Certified Mechanic?

If the answer was yes to any of the above, you must have not been aware of anything you did on a daily basis.

The vehicle electrical system is not operating at 13.5-14.5 volts that is the charge rate of the alternator. Why do they call it a 12 volts system if the actual voltage was 13.5 to 14.5?

If the charge rate of an alternator was 12 volt and the battery is 12 volt, the current would not flow from the alternator to the battery because they will be in equilibrium. An alternator charge rate has to be greater than 12 volts in order for the current to flow from the alternator to the battery.

If a battery was fully charged, the alternator regulator will prevent the alternator from overcharging the battery by not supplying a voltage to the field coil.

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/alt_bwoh.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by upallnight (Post 1062516)

The vehicle electrical system is not operating at 13.5-14.5 volts that is the charge rate of the alternator. Why do they call it a 12 volts system if the actual voltage was 13.5 to 14.5?

If the charge rate of an alternator was 12 volt and the battery is 12 volt, the current would not flow from the alternator to the battery because they will be in equilibrium. An alternator charge rate has to be greater than 12 volts in order for the current to flow from the alternator to the battery.

If a battery was fully charged, the alternator regulator will prevent the alternator from overcharging the battery by not supplying a voltage to the field coil.

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/alt_bwoh.pdf

The majority of 12 Volt automotive systems operate at 13.5-14.5 Volts in case you have never bothered to check. Rarely will any modern vehicle with a properly operating electrical system ever drop to or below 12.6 Volts. As I mentioned there are a few exceptions and this has nothing to do with a battery charging Voltage it has to do with load shedding, engine power management and fuel economy. The E53 does not function this way.

13.5-14.5 Volts IS the typical operating Voltage for the majority of "12 Volt" vehicle electrical systems. This Voltage is required to keep both the battery charged and power all the accessories and loads in the vehicle.

It is called a 12 Volt system as "Nominal" 12 Volts. The typical automotive battery has a combined cell Voltage of 12.6 Volts based on thetypicaly battery chemistry. So why is is not called a 12.6 Volt system?? Simplicity sake would be a good reason. 24 Volt systems typically operate at 27-29 Volts but they are also referred to as a 24 Volt system. Again, simplicity sake would be a good reason.

Yes, in order to provide a charge to any battery, the charging Voltage needs to be greater than the battery baseline Volt. This is simple and basic electricity theory.

I just do not understand why there are just a few people here that THINK they know what they are talking about and often provide wrong or misleading information?? I realize this is a forum and often forums are for exchanging information, idea and to learn things, but I have found some of the E53 group a rather unusual bunch that really needs to open their minds a bit.

Also trying to prove a point with YouTube videos or other sources does not make you an expert, especially if you have never spend a day or years in the field. I have found many YouTube or self produced videos and documents often are full of mistakes, inaccuracies or just down right wrong information. You still need to think for yourself in the information age, because last time I checked, everything on the Internet is not 100% accurate.

We have had the Johnny Neutron that try to debunk everything someone states when they have never verified any of what is being discussed.

It seems there are a few "buddies" here that are equally as confused and/or have little to no field experience and tend to believe EVERYTHING that is put in writing or on a video. Even the manufacturers, suppliers and service manual providers make errors, omissions and just wrong statements or have incorrect procedures documented. I run into this ALL the time in the Automotive and other fields that I am involved in.

Yes, the OP needs to do some basics, test and charge the battery, verify connections, verify the charging system, check for Voltage drop. Often I make the mistake that someone has my basic knowledge and skill set and do not always start with the assumption that someone can barely open their hood, but many people are at this level. But for people to make a blanket statement that the vehicle runs off the battery is just wrong for anything other than a Tesla or golf cart, I just have no idea how anyone can even think this is they way a vehicle electrical system works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfoj (Post 1062523)

It

The majority of 12 Volt automotive systems operate at 13.5-14.5 Volts in case you have never bothered to check. Rarely will any modern vehicle with a properly operating electrical system ever drop to or below 12.6 Volts. As I mentioned there are a few exceptions and this has nothing to do with a battery charging Voltage it has to do with load shedding, engine power management and fuel economy. The E53 does not function this way.

13.5-14.5 Volts IS the typical operating Voltage for the majority of "12 Volt" vehicle electrical systems. This Voltage is required to keep both the battery charged and power all the accessories and loads in the vehicle.

It is called a 12 Volt system as "Nominal" 12 Volts. The typical automotive battery has a combined cell Voltage of 12.6 Volts based on thetypicaly battery chemistry. So why is is not called a 12.6 Volt system?? Simplicity sake would be a good reason. 24 Volt systems typically operate at 27-29 Volts but they are also referred to as a 24 Volt system. Again, simplicity sake would be a good reason.

Yes, in order to provide a charge to any battery, the charging Voltage needs to be greater than the battery baseline Volt. This is simple and basic electricity theory.

I just do not understand why there are just a few people here that THINK they know what they are talking about and often provide wrong or misleading information?? I realize this is a forum and often forums are for exchanging information, idea and to learn things, but I have found some of the E53 group a rather unusual bunch that really needs to open their minds a bit.

Also trying to prove a point with YouTube videos or other sources does not make you an expert, especially if you have never spend a day or years in the field. I have found many YouTube or self produced videos and documents often are full of mistakes, inaccuracies or just down right wrong information. You still need to think for yourself in the information age, because last time I checked, everything on the Internet is not 100% accurate.

We have had the Johnny Neutron that try to debunk everything someone states when they have never verified any of what is being discussed.

It seems there are a few "buddies" here that are equally as confused and/or have little to no field experience and tend to believe EVERYTHING that is put in writing or on a video. Even the manufacturers, suppliers and service manual providers make errors, omissions and just wrong statements or have incorrect procedures documented. I run into this ALL the time in the Automotive and other fields that I am involved in.

Yes, the OP needs to do some basics, test and charge the battery, verify connections, verify the charging system, check for Voltage drop. Often I make the mistake that someone has my basic knowledge and skill set and do not always start with the assumption that someone can barely open their hood, but many people are at this level. But for people to make a blanket statement that the vehicle runs off the battery is just wrong for anything other than a Tesla or golf cart, I just have no idea how anyone can even think this is they way a vehicle electrical system works.

Never claimed to be an expert in the automotive field. The only person that is making that claim on this forum is YOU.

The Youtube video was just to show that you can operate a car without a battery.

My statement was that the car runs off both the battery and alternator, not just one or the other.

The radio in my X and other cars operates just fine with the engine off and just running on the 12 volts Battery, so does the lights and the windshield wipers if I turn them on.

Are you by any chance related to Trader4. Or are you Trader4 but with a new log in?

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenVA (Post 1062511)

Disagreeing is not flaming. As I see it you are the first to head that way.

Yes--it is easy to check the battery with a meter if you have what you need and know how to use it. And if he does that's great. If that is not the case and the route is to purchase one I suggest purchasing one that will do a load test. The tests you suggest should start with a fully charged battery that reads 12v. However that is not the only way to find the core problem without guessing and since the meter route had already been suggested I thought an another approach was a reasonable contribution, for OP and other readers.

Upallnight is correct that a car will run based on the alternator output only. I agree the primary function of the battery is to start the engine. However, the current needed to keep the vehicle running and power the electrical systems still comes through the battery not directly to the electrical systems. What electrical systems are connected directly to the output of the alternator?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdstrickland (Post 1062432)

The red battery light is really a Charging System Light, not a light to tell you the battery is dead. You know the battery is dead because it stops working. The charging system runs all electrical circuits after the engine is started, the battery is only used to start the engine. You might sit in a parking lot with the radio on and the engine off, but the design intent of a battery is to start the car.

If the charging system light is on while the engine is running, then you have alternator trouble, or connection trouble of the alternator. Since alternators wear out and connection troubles are seldom spontaneous, my money is on the alternator. Specifically, the brushes that are part of the voltage regulator that can be removed from the back of the alternator. If you know how to take the regulator out, there's a small chance that you can do so without removing the alternator from the car, but I think you will need to take the alternator out to fix this.

:iagree:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcredliner (Post 1062528)

Disagreeing is not flaming. As I see it you are the first to head that way.

Yes--it is easy to check the battery with a meter if you have what you need and know how to use it. And if he does that's great. If that is not the case and the route is to purchase one I suggest purchasing one that will do a load test. The tests you suggest should start with a fully charged battery that reads 12v. However that is not the only way to find the core problem without guessing and since the meter route had already been suggested I thought an another approach was a reasonable contribution, for OP and other readers.

Upallnight is correct that a car will run based on the alternator output only. I agree the primary function of the battery is to start the engine. However, the current needed to keep the vehicle running and power the electrical systems still comes through the battery not directly to the electrical systems. What electrical systems are connected directly to the output of the alternator?

Wouldn't it have to be all of them because the car will run with the battery completely disconnected?