Dealership estimates
 

Hi all -

So I took my '02 X5 in to the dealer for it's 3rd window regulator fix. I have now had the front two and the back left (this one) fixed. The first two were still covered on CPO, this one was not.

I dropped the car at 7:30 and said I would wait. The mechanics don't start until 8 am, but apparently were in so they supposedly started around 7:45 am. I was told it would be about 2 hours (9:45 am).

At 8:55 am the car was done, washed, vacuumed and I was ready to go. I was quoted and estimated of $450. It turned out to be $415.

As I had to get to work, I didn't look over the bill thoroughly until I got to work around 15 mins later. The billing had 2 hour of labor. Hmm, considering I wasnt' even in the dealer for 2 hours TOTAL from drop-off to pick up, I thought this odd.

I called the service advisor and told him that I didn't believe I should have been billed for 2 hours of labor since it was really an hour (7:45 - 8:45, and that giving them only an additional 10 mins to wash/vacuum). He said that they go by the "book" on what the estimated time is and if it's less, well too bad.

I know the BMW service books state the expected repair times. I'd be willing to bet that most every mechanic beats those times.

So I told him that was wrong and they should credit me an hours labor. He even said they had to wait 20-25 mins for a part to arrive (so now actual labor time really was no more than 25-30 mins tops).

He wouldn't change it and I told him I would take it higher up - first the Service Mgr and then to BMW North America.

So am I wasting my time to try that? Has anyone ever been able to get credit because they took less time?

I'm sure the mechanic was on to another job immediately, so he got paid an hour for my job (doing nothing) and was already making money on the next job in the cue.

I told them I was going to head to an independent shop because I'm out of warranty and there is no reason to keep using them.

ShoeDog

Thats what the dealers do, exactly why you shoudn't go there unless you really really have to. You can actually change the regulator yourself fairly easily, heck i did it in -20C weather. The part is around $120-$140 ish i think.

Thanks. Yeah, I won't be using them anymore unless I get another one and I'm under warranty.

Just wondered if this was worth pursuing or was it a waste of my time.

Shoedog

Thats b.s. persue it.

If someone charged me on a estimated rate of what a book said, I'd be pissed. If I were you, I'd be in their shop making a scene.

I'll find you a book that say black is white if you want.

I'm really not trying to be a tool, but that is how MOST dealer service centers charge. They do it that way to standardize estimates across a population of mechanics and to allow them to give customers an estimate.

"book" time is the industry standard in all of the automotive repair industry. I am a mechanic at a BMW dealer myself. Techs at the dealer work on the same kinda cars every day, and know them inside and out. Something as simple as a rear window regulator I can do in about 20 minutes, and the rear window regulator pays 1.9 hours by BMW service pricing. My answer to that is don't penalize me for being good/efficient in what I do! If it pays 2.4 hours to change a valve cover gasket, I get paid 2.4 hours to change it whether it takes me 45 minutes to complete or 4.5 hours to complete. And trust me, ALOT of jobs on these cars eat our freakin lunch. Parasitic draws of the battery, most bus problems, water leaks/wind noises, all of these problems take an exorbitant amount of time to properly diagnose and fix, yet we don't get paid shit for diagnosis time on these and we usually lose 1/2 a day to a day and a half of labor time to diagnosing these problems. Should I charge these customers 12 hours of labor because it took me that long to properly find/fix the problem? Or would you be damn glad the "book time" for diagnosis was only a couple of hours...

The book time for BMW service at the dealer is not an actual book, but is set directly by BMWNA and is all accessed through the computer terminal. The fact that some, not all, of the mechanics can correctly and competently complete the job faster than the book time is how better mechanics make more money. Would you rather the mechanic finished the job in 50 minutes and just let the car sit there in his stall for another hour? Just so you didn't feel ripped off? Meanwhile the mechanic would be staring at this finished job tying up his stall, stopping him from pulling in his next job... directly affecting his paycheck?

Sorry I got into a rant there, I have just been surrounded by incompetents and ignorance lately and needed to vent a bit... and for some reason this thread set me off for a sec. Sometimes I feel after working with certain people, I would be fully qualified to work the special olympics!

So your saying it is ethical to charge 1.9 hours for the rear window regulator when it only took you .3 hours?

Yes, that is what we are saying. They charge a set amount for a repair. Some mechanics take longer, some do it quicker. Would you rather that they just say "We'll charge you what it actually takes", and then wonder and worry about whether they were assigning a newbie or a hotshot. This is completely ethical, and normal, and how MOST auto repair places work.

Including independent shops also. Most of them use the Mitchell service guide, which is an actual book, riddled with greasy fingerprints. Put it this way, if a mastertech that has been working on BMW's for 20 years can't do s simple job like a window regulator, that you could train a monkey to do, quicker than book time... he should have found a new profession many years ago. Yet the newbie techs that are fresh out of school with no experiance will almost never beat the time, and their work has to be checked over by the master tech before it leaves anyways.

Are you saying its ethical to pay me less to do the job because I have a higher knowledge and experience level than others? Would you pay MORE to the less knowledgeable, less experienced, slower working techs that blunder through the job slowly?

It is the customers like you that don't know better, but think they do, that go to the independent shops with the lowest rates thinking you're doing good. Then wonder why your rear carpets get saturated when it rains... just to find out the independent shop cut open your vapor barrier (water shield glued to the inside opening of your door to keep the water outside the vehicle) to replace that regulator, not knowing it had to be carefully removed and resealed... left out half the screws, and broke half of the retaining clipd that hold the door panel on. Not so much because he didn't care as that he didn't know better, this was probably the first BMW he worked on in his career. Independent shops do NOT have the training regiment and professional learning environment of a dealership. I would rather pay for quality work in the first place than pay for cheap labor, then have to pay more for quality techs to fix what they broke.

Just look at the quote in my signature. You think professional is expensive, just wait until you pay for amateur!

Yet again, sorry for the rant... but this thread is actually just the release I need tonight, and if I can help straighten someone out on their beliefs, all the better! No hard feelings, just strong ones!:thumbup:

And jmweb, if I might ask, what is your profession?

I personally would NEVER take my car into the dealer for service unless it was absolutely my last resort if it was out of warranty...I would prefer to take it there, but I feel like I was bent over my service advisors desk everytime I leave his office...Just had it there yesterday for an update and he said I should get an alignment...I in turn told him that the car was tracking perfectly straight and I didn't think I needed one...He then told me that the x5 you wouldn't be able to 'feel' if it was out of alignment...I gave him a confused wtf look and asked how much...his answer...$325...I laughed at him and jokingly told him to go F&*k himself...He said that was the going rate...I laughed again and told him no thanks...

$325 for a damned alignment?!?!?! No offense to the mechanics on here, you guys do a great job most of the time for me, but the dealerships just suck...I put plates and screws into human beings and you guys make more than I do!! Its a joke....I mean, $450 for a filter and oil change?? Holy mother of god...I 'm just sorry for the people that can't do all the little things themselves

Although I hate paying dealer prices I agree completely with weasel56. The book time covers the extensive training that the technicians receive as well as the warranty on their work, which is usually two years. So if that regulate fails again in 18 months the dealer covers the entire job free of cost. Try going back to the Indy shop that put it in, they will replace the part you bring them from BMW but you are going to get charged for the 2nd repair.

As a technical support manager for a software company, we charge customers for custom integration and upgrades. I too have had to justify to customers why a 4 hour quote only took 2 hours to fix. At the end of the day it's an avergage, my best tech can do it in 2, my worst 6 - average 4.

If they are unhappy with the prices they are more than welcome to go to a reseller for service, 99% of the ones who do are back within a year.

Weasel56 keep up the great work - the BMW techs I have met in the past have all been excellent and take great pride in their work.

indy mechanic did it for $50 for me, I got the part from someone here for another $50 =]

we all seem to be saying the same thing here, only go to the dealer if you have to, nothing new.

This is correct.

Actually, I go to the INDY mechanic who charges some of the highest rates in town, but then again you get what you pay for in that case. So don't try and label me on your bad day pal.

p.s. charging someone 1.9 hours for .3 hours of work completed is not ethical.

Neither is charging someone $100.00 for a pair of shoes that cost $25.00 to make, but store do it every day! Fact of the matter is, in general wholesale value is 200% of cost, and retail value is 200% of wholesale. So by your theory, most things you buy every day are un-ethical, but that's just how the world works. Otherwise nobody would make any kind of profit and our economy would collapse in on itself. (even faster than it already does at least)

I guess we can just agree to disagree. I don't mean to offend anyone, and realize we all will have our own opinions. But It is required to have an industry standard. That way no matter who works on it, that job pays what it pays. The labor times are preset to an industry standard, and the labor rates vary by shop due to variables such as overhead costs and level of training and quality of work performed in specialized fields. Trust me, the independent shops charge book time also, but their hourly rate is cheaper because it is a smaller shop with mechanics that may be ASE certified and trained (as I am also) but do not have the specific knowledge and vehicle specific training that comes with years at a dealership.

And yet again, just because I can do it in 0.3 because I've literally done dozens of them... doesn't make it unethical. Paying me less because I am a better, faster and more efficient tech IS unethical, because by your way the slower, less knowledgeable techs would get paid MORE than the veterans with years of experience just because it took them longer.... what kind of sense does that make?

And if you don't want to pay labor costs at all, just do it yourself! Most of these jobs are simple tasks... just nuts and bolts, and easy if you have the correct information at your disposal. Which you can usually find on this great site! You could have bought the regulator over the parts counter and changed it yourself with a few simple hand tools... could have tried to beat the 1.9 time!

Sounds like you don't get raises?

Theres a difference between charging a markup and charging "per hour".

Uh - No. This is not a question of ethics. This is a system for auto repair, used by 90% of auto repair facilities in the US. It's a system that makes perfect sense, and makes variations in mechanic skills workable. Your lack of understanding of the system does not make it unethical. Unless you are willing to assert that everyone working in 90% of the auto repair facilities in the US is unethical.

How can a company say they charge per hour and yet charge per job?

People used to believe that trial by drowning was right too.

No, we do get raises, but trust me... we don't make as much as you would think. I get less than 20% of what the shop charges per hour. The master techs that have been there for over 14 YEARS gross almost 80k per year, but I make less than half of that.

Basically I was saying the hour rate per job, the "book time" is not set by the individual mechanic, or the dealer for that matter. It is set directly by BMW and we have no say over it... the parts department charges its standard markup (retail) to make their money... pay its employees. But the service shop charges pre-determined amounts for each task. And you're right there is a difference between charging a markup and charging "per hour" but what you don't understand is that the "per hour" is a set standard time per job task, and not actually by physical hour. This is necessary for uniform charges, otherwise the same job would greatly vary in price from one tech to another, just by talent alone... and if the techs were able to set their own prices, they would get so cut-throat! Everybody trying to undercut eachothers prices to steal customers, all the while trying to jack up the prices to get more money. That would be horrible! The current system is necessary! But like you said, you get what you pay for. BMW dealer costs more, but you get OEM parts installed properly and warranted by trained, qualified and certified techs that HAVE done it before. At an indy, its a roll of the dice for the quality of work performed.

I'll tell you from experience, a high percentile of independent mechanics look up the fault code, and replace whatever part it says. I can't tell you how many people came to the dealer from a local independent that specializes in German cars that had an O2 sensor fault and simply got new O2 sensors installed by them. Check engine light came back on, same fault. shop didn't know what to do. Sent them to us. It is usually not a fault with the sensor itself, but something it monitors. Like "bank 2 upstream O2 sensor, mixture too lean" they put a sensor, it simply has a vacuum leak! Fix with a hose or boot. They just don't have the resources or knowledge of the system in question to properly diagnose the cause of the fault. If you found a competent indy with good techs that can actually diagnose rather than "change parts" then by all means, give them your business... they deserve it!

But hopefully you come away from this with a better understanding of how the system works, why it has to work that way, and why YOU can't change it. Maybe one day you will make friends with a tech at the dealer that has spare time and is willing to do work out of his driveway, then he can give you a better price, and you get the benifit of someone that knows what they're doing... and can teach you a few things along the way. My personal friends that use me for work love that I teach them as I do the job... they eventually call me all proud that they were able to fix something themselves without needing help. And there are 3 local independent shops that I am personal friends with the owners of, that call me for advise/help. And the occasional Saturday side job their techs can't handle.

And Damager, thanks for the help trying to explain this!

I've never experienced a mechanic that charges "book time". All mechanics here typically advertise their hourly rates someplace near the counter.

Then again, I've never gone to the BMW dealer for repairs, its too far away!

All that being said, my last trip to my INDY Mechanic kinda failed me. This was the first time but it did hapen. They said a creeking noise was from my rotors, mind you the noise doesn't sound like a rotor noise. Another mechanic today quickly looked at it and said its probably something that connects to my sway bar.

This was the first time my current INDY mechanic fucked up.

The hourly charges they advertise near the counter is what they charge per hour... but the number of hours charged per job is that pesky "book time"... get it yet?????

And if they changed the wrong parts for what the complaint was... THAT is the case to make a stink over! They need to take their rotors back, refund your money for that and find the actual problem to fix. That should also be industry standard. If I miss-diagnose a vehicle and fix something that wasn't broken, meanwhile the original complaint wasn't fixed... then it's on ME. BMW will not pay me to NOT fix the car. It is the responsibility of the tech to find and fix the customers concern, and not by trial and error, but testing and diagnosing. If you change parts that don't fix the problem, you CAN NOT charge the customer to replace those parts... that was your mistake.

I dunno, maybe its different here.

And I always got it, i just never thought it was ethical.

No, it's at least a days wait to get BMW parts here.

Closest BMW charges an arm and a leg.

For instance.
BMW altenator at closest BMW dealer is ~$800 (according to INDY Mechanic).
BMW altenator in US BMW Dealer is $380.


Therefore I order my parts from the US, so my rotors are on a Fedex truck coming this way. Had the mechanic installed them and it did not fix my problem, I would have received my money back on the mechanical work. Least, I'd hope so.

They don't charge me anything when they can't determine anything so....but that only happened once.

well maybe the only good thing to come of this thread beaten down, and not even by the original poster mind you... is for you to correct and redirect your complaints from the dealer, who just did things "by the book" to the independent that changed the wrong parts, not fixing the problem, and charged you for it... Ho wcould they let it go back to you not fixed? They should have caught it on the test drive... "hey boss, its still doing the same thing!, oh well... let them come back and buy something else"?????

Ok, I posted that last reply before seeing the one you just posted...

But "according to indy mechanic" tells me they are doing what they do best, and charging 100% markup on parts they have to order... most of them do that, including the ones I know.

definately a possibility, but then again the closest BMW dealer is known to have outrageous prices.

i.e. the cost of a rotor through them would be $400 and if I want they will give me a package dealer for the brake shoes and sensor too.

Through US of A, its 1/4th that.

and thats me calling the closest dealer for a comparision.

Well I don't know what changes the pricing soo much from US dealers to Canadian... Wouldn't think it would have to do with them getting parts from past the border, I ordered quite a few things from online that came from Canada, and shipping was normally priced. And I'm way down in the south! (New Orleans) Just doesn't make sense. I would ask them why, see if they can explain that one. Even have the price quote from the US dealer in hand (via fax) for part #'s and pricing reference. I'd be curious on that one.

Cuz we're canadians.

Jag in US new is what $60k? New in Canada it is $90k.

Is the whole cost of living higher up there, or just certain aspects?

quoting southpark..."BLAME CANADA!"

certain aspects.

well, I get pissed at paying $4 a gallon when ist still well under a dollar a gallon in Venezuela. Hell, I believe its only about 12 cents a gallon there about now... meanwhile the poor bastards in europe have to pay over $8 a gallon! damn global economics suck!

We pay 30% more, due to taxes, on gas then you americans do!

jeez... Well I guess be glad you're not from the other half of the world. Much of Europe, Turkey and even Germany has gas priced over $8 a gallon... I can see those poor people trying to go 70mph on the autobahn to conserve gas.

Why?

Why what, the gas prices? or the stupid joke about speed...

the gas prices have to do with the global economic situation. Most of the US gets its gas from Central American oil... Our own oil gets sent away... we don't even get to use it ourselves. And Europe, Germany etc. get the Arab oil. Who screwed the pooch on that one?

One thing that people don't seem to be complaining about is when the hourly rate works out in their favor. The dealer quoted me .75 hours to install the Ipod integration in the wifes 2004 325CI. When everything was said and done the install took 1.5 hours, not including the free wash. The tech who installed it also made recommendations to replace speakers, etc.. All of which were covered by the warranty. In total, I paid .75 hours and had about $1200 worth of work done. I think the best analogy I have seen on this post was the shoes that cost $25 to make and were sold for $100 - everyone is out to make a profit, sometimes they win and some times they lose, it is the average that keeps them in business.

well said!

It's a totally fair system. They're not charging for the repair per hour. They have a fixed price for the job and charge that regardless of the actual time required. If you don't like the fixed, accurate pricing, go to an indy shop and pray to baby jesus that he doesn't eff up your car.

3rd window regulator??? May I suggest that you ride with all the windows open as much as you can, and/or cycle all the windows everytime you get into the car. If it's raining, you may want to install window wind deflectors so you can also crack open the windows.

I had one window regulator break on the trip back to Idaho after picking it up from the person I bought it from in June, 2005 (<42k mileage). I am now approaching 91k without another occurence. (I know, I know, I'm really pushing my luck by "saying" that out loud) I learned from this website that you "normally" get better longivity with use vs little to no use.

One think I am going to add, I was quoted similar price on window regulator replacement by Indy shop $450(non BMW CCA member) and $415 (for BMW CCA member). The dealer was so busy wouldn't even return my call. Since none of them can fix my car on the next day, I did it myself, part is $178 at dealer though. So Can't say OP got ripped-of though like anything in life if you feel strongly about it speak up.

SEATTLE - Drivers Side Front Window Regulator - Need Help
 

Just wondering if anyone in Seattle area can lend a hand to a fellow x5world member in fixing the drivers front window regulator. Money is tight as my job in real estate is being affected by the down economy. Hoping to avoid paying the dealer to fix this problem by fixing it myself. Problem is that I am not the most handy when working on cars. If someone local can assist me, I would be most appreciative and would gladly assist you in other areas in return.

Thanks
Bryan
206-227-9376.

Bryan - not sure if you fixed yours yet, but thought I would share with you my findings...

My X5 is going in to an indy tomorrow for a new, OEM regulator here in Portland, Oregon.

I called all BMW dealerships in the Portland/Seattle market, and called 8 indepedents... and received estimates between $300 and $700.

Luckily, the guy I take it to routinely quoted me $330, so it goes to him!

It might be worth the trip to you (Seattle was the most expensive at dealerships) if you can't find anyone willing to do it for under $400.

Good Luck

Fixed Regulator for $170 including labor and parts
 

Thanks for getting back to me. I found a former BMW dealership mechanic who was able to fix it for $90 labor and bought the aftermarket Left Front regulator for $80 on Ebay for a total of $170 installed. I did assist in the install which was great because I got a chance to see how it all goes together and might venture to do my own next time.

If you are interested in taking your car to him, he is in Smokey Point (50 minutes north of Seattle). Since he just did mine, yours would probably only take 1 hour instead of the 90 minutes it took us.

bryan

Nice deal you found! I tried finding a local guy with "some experience" but the only way I could break the $300 threshold was to use a non-OEM regulator...

I even tried craigslist, mini-shops, etc, etc.! If anyone knows of any "lesser" expensive indys in Portland - I'd love to hear about them!