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-   -   X5 4.4 - Sludge in engine and oil filter housing... help! (https://xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e53-forum/71984-x5-4-4-sludge-engine-oil-filter-housing-help.html)

X5 Meister 04-08-2010 09:11 PM
Your post is terribly confusing. First you post a survey question about TRANSMISSION FLUID (NOT OIL) and then you talk about ENGINE OIL.

You should mention where you bought your car, the # of miles, how was it maintained, etc.

Frankly I'm amazed that someone smart enough to find their way onto Xoutpost didn't get a 7 year old car looked over by a professional mechanic prior to purchase, but that's a side point.

$70 for oil, better get used to it. I'd change it every 1,000 miles at this point given what you wrote.

And as far as automatic transmission FLUID is concerned, yes you can buy all the fluids readily. It has been discussed and written up in this board and you can go to your local BMW dealer and get part numbers etc if you don't want to do any searching. As far as whether or not you should change it, you'll get as many opinions on the matter as there are X5's on the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArNarX5 (Post 730663)
So I changed the oil for the very first time on the 03 4.4 I just bought two weeks ago and to my surprise.... WOW: wow: talk about sludge everywhere in the in the engine and filter housing! I was disgusted. ;puke;

How could someone be so careless to leave their oil in the car so long that it turns into sludge!?! There was rock like black crystals in an oil filter that said it was made in India.

Needless to say, I cleaned whatever I could in the oil filter housing and drained ALL of the nasty burnt oil from the car and replaced with OEM Oil Filter and Almost 9 Qts of Mobile 1 5w/30.

The car has 100k on it and the engine runs fine as if you could not tell it has that entire gunk built up inside of it.

My Question....

What can I do to safely remove all the build up from inside the engine components? I am planning on dumping this oil in about 2,000 miles and it's a waste since it's Mobile 1 and cost almost $70. Has anyone ever had a similar situation? If so, how did you deal with it?

Any thoughts would be appreciated!:beerchug::thumbup:

sunny5280 04-08-2010 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FSETH (Post 730755)
Read this thread;

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...intenance.html

Especially the first post by JCL. He knows his stuff.
His post was a good read but I didn't see anything which demonstrated any risk. The only risk related comment he made was:

"That is what can disturb sediment that wasn't otherwise hurting anything, IMO."

However he earlier stated such a risk was:

"My lack of support for changing the fluid is not because "BMW said" but rather because I see little benefit to changing it, and a small but real risk. The risk of damage is slight, but it exists."

I do see his point of:

"At the same time, I think that the transmission is likely to fail from non-fluid related causes prior to the fluid degrading to the point that it causes a transmission failure itself."

But I'd rather minimize the likelyhood of such failure by ensuring the fluid is in good condition.

FSETH 04-08-2010 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 (Post 730763)
But I'd rather minimize the likelyhood of such failure by ensuring the fluid is in good condition.
That is the thing though, if you change it from early on, I think it is better. If you wait until 100k+ and change it for the first time, you are running the risk of dislodging sediment (whatever else) and that is something that can potentially cause issues on higher mileage transmissions. Not saying it will happen, but can. There are enough threads on this topic floating around to keep you busy for days on end.

sunny5280 04-08-2010 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FSETH (Post 730770)
That is the thing though, if you change it from early on, I think it is better. If you wait until 100k+ and change it for the first time, you are running the risk of dislodging sediment (whatever else) and that is something that can potentially cause issues on higher mileage transmissions. Not saying it will happen, but can. There are enough threads on this topic floating around to keep you busy for days on end.
There is the possibility of dislodging sediment but even if that were the case I have seen no evidence to support that dislodged sediment correlates to transmission failure. So while the risk is there I think a transmission failure resulting from it is so rare as to make it a non-issue.

FSETH 04-08-2010 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 (Post 730777)
There is the possibility of dislodging sediment but even if that were the case I have seen no evidence to support that dislodged sediment correlates to transmission failure. So while the risk is there I think a transmission failure resulting from it is so rare as to make it a non-issue.

I found this post from JCL in one of the numerous trans fluid threads...

On higher mileage transmissions it isn't the metal shavings you have to worry about, although there could be some. If you have metal shavings, it doesn't really matter if you change the fluid or not as the transmission is likely on its way out. What wears inside a transmission are the clutch packs (multi-disk wet clutches) and the bands; both are surfaced with a non-metallic friction material that wears over time. That material is what can clog a valve body. It sits there undisturbed but can be moved by a fluid change. Clean fluid doesn't dissolve it, but draining the fluid and then starting it up and repressurizing the clutch packs can move it around. It may not happen, but in any case that is the theory behind the risks of changing fluid on high mileage transmissions.

I am going to jump off the JCL train now. :rofl: I am not saying this is going to happen, but I guess I wouldn't call it a non-issue either.

JCL 04-09-2010 01:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 (Post 730777)
There is the possibility of dislodging sediment but even if that were the case I have seen no evidence to support that dislodged sediment correlates to transmission failure. So while the risk is there I think a transmission failure resulting from it is so rare as to make it a non-issue.
My largest concern is with moving sediment around upon repressurizing clutch packs, solenoids, etc. It is a classic failure mode for transmissions that otherwise work fine, have no apparent problems, get a fluid change and then fail soon after. If you don't think it is a risk, then you should change the fluid. We aren't talking absolutes here, whereby every fluid change causes a subsequent failure, just a risk profile, whereby there are many failures that can be attributed to fluid changes.

The other risk is that the fluid has changed viscosity over time, and when you put new (thinner) fluid in, it doesn't work as well due to being thinner. The transmission adapts to different fluid characteristics over time.

FSETH actually saved me a lot of typing, thanks bud!

ArNarX5 04-09-2010 02:25 AM
Thanks. That was a great post. I am leaning towards chaning the fluid. I'm thinking it won't go bad, and if it does, then it was going to very soon because the oil had already broken down causing mechanical problems. I am thinking about sending the Tranny Oil to be checked out by a lab prior to changing the oil though. This way I can get an analysis to see if the oil inside is any good or not, making my decision a bit easier.
:bustingup

X5 Meister 04-09-2010 02:41 AM
A few years back some dealers were offering an engine oil flush of some sort where they would I think reverse flush the engine and emulsify the oil and sludge, etc. A few master techs suggested it wasn't a bad idea on a high mileage car. Never did it myself, but maybe that's something you should consider.

sunny5280 04-09-2010 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FSETH (Post 730780)
I found this post from JCL in one of the numerous trans fluid threads...

On higher mileage transmissions it isn't the metal shavings you have to worry about, although there could be some. If you have metal shavings, it doesn't really matter if you change the fluid or not as the transmission is likely on its way out. What wears inside a transmission are the clutch packs (multi-disk wet clutches) and the bands; both are surfaced with a non-metallic friction material that wears over time. That material is what can clog a valve body. It sits there undisturbed but can be moved by a fluid change. Clean fluid doesn't dissolve it, but draining the fluid and then starting it up and repressurizing the clutch packs can move it around. It may not happen, but in any case that is the theory behind the risks of changing fluid on high mileage transmissions.

I am going to jump off the JCL train now. :rofl: I am not saying this is going to happen, but I guess I wouldn't call it a non-issue either.
I previously acknowledged the possibility of disloding sediment. However my personal opinion, and it appears it is shared by JCL, is the possibility of it happening is very low. Furthermore should sediment be dislodged I have seen no evidence it will result in a transmission failure. So the chances of dislodging sediment are very low and the chances of dislodged sediment resulting in a transmission failure are very low.

sunny5280 04-09-2010 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL (Post 730812)
My largest concern is with moving sediment around upon repressurizing clutch packs, solenoids, etc. It is a classic failure mode for transmissions that otherwise work fine, have no apparent problems, get a fluid change and then fail soon after. If you don't think it is a risk, then you should change the fluid. We aren't talking absolutes here, whereby every fluid change causes a subsequent failure, just a risk profile, whereby there are many failures that can be attributed to fluid changes.
This is just a restatement of the post FSETH linked to. There you said you felt the chances of dislodging sediment are slight. I agree with this. There is a possibility but I don't see it being very high. Nor do I see any evidence the dislodged sediment, in the slight case it occurs, results in transmission failure.

Quote:
The other risk is that the fluid has changed viscosity over time, and when you put new (thinner) fluid in, it doesn't work as well due to being thinner. The transmission adapts to different fluid characteristics over time.
I am assuming you're replacing the fluid with the recommended fluid. Which makes this point moot.


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