Code P0430 and Engine Stumbles When Accelerating
 

The wife's 2009 X5 3.0i is giving the P0430 code. It starts and idles fine but when you accelerate moderately to hard, or when there is a power demand like going uphill, it "stumbles", jerks and shakes until you back off of the accelerator. Anyone been down this road before with the E70? Can someone tell me how many O2 sensors it has, and where they are located? Also, where #1 cylinder is on these engines, so that i can identify Bank 2? I am thinking to start with the Bank 2 downstream, since I read that the P0430 code is for the Bank 2 sensor. I thought upstream sensors were much more likely to go out before downstream ones. But, I read somewhere that a CAT efficiency code like the P0430 points more toward a downstream sensor. A little extra brain power from you guys would be appreciated. Thanks!

Miles?

Original O2 sensors?


Classic failure mode for cat efficiency is for a motor to run very rich, which 'swamps' the O2 sensors and causes them to think the cat is bad. Saw a TON of cat replacements on the S62s for this, as those motors had aggressive tuning.


I dont know where those are on your car. Somewhere underneath. I mean get a jack and some wrenches and have at it. ;) Honestly if the O2s are old, replace them all.


But I am not sure o2s are the cause of your driveability issues. A air leak in the intake... or a bad vanos solenoid...or something impacting timing/advance...could all cause rich running, with sluggish responses.


Can you pull your AFRs? (Fuel rations, long and short term fuel trims)? Invest the 150 in a decent reader, it may be worth the effort...


GL

Mileage 124,707. I bought this for her 5 years ago with I think about 91,000 on it. As far as I know, they are original sensors. I am thinking a timing issue would trigger other codes, and maybe a P0420 as well, but who knows? When I say stumbles, I mean it jerks fairly hard when giving it the gas to go uphill, etc.

Lost my Veepeak reader while scanning a buddy's car a while back, have another on order from Amazon. Supposed to be here Friday. Then I can get more data.

Had thoughts of just going ahead and ordering O2 sensors, but I don't know yet how many there are on this rig. Looks like the name brands are running over $40 a pop on eBay. Guess I'm lucky they aren't more. Also like to know where they are at so I don't have to remove more things than I have to, just to look for them.

Thanks, I'll post more data when I pull it.

I'm unfamiliar e veepeak. You want a reader that can decode BMW specific codes, not just OBD.

On timing issues... Your conclusion is only true for large, persistent errors. Slight timing lags due to sluggish vanos (for example) due to worn o rings or sludge, can lead to issues only at some rpm ranges...enough to cause issues but not trigger their own code. I AM NOT CONCLUDING THIS IS YOUR CASE, ,but keep in mind it can be more nuanced.

Fwiw

I was steered to the Veepeak adapter and OBDFusion app four years ago by jfoj, on this site. Seems to work pretty well with my iPhone. Don't remember if it knows BMW-specific codes, but as long as it just reads them, I can look them up on the interweb. I remember it gives fuel trim data, temperatures, barometric pressure, rpm, throttle position, fuel rate, calculated load, MAF rate, timing degrees, O2 sensor voltage, and all that jazz, so maybe there will be something there to gives some clues for the diagnosis.

Sounds good.


However, the issue with "BMW Specific" codes is not the words that are associated with a numeric code; it can be the code ITSELF. Youd like to think a code is a code- a number- and all readers will give you that. However there are BMW codes that will not show up on some readers, defaulting to a different general fault code- not the "manufacturer specific BMW code" you might want. Just FYI...dont think that is the case with yours

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Well, got my Veepeak OBD II reader, and got some data. Not sure what to make of it yet. It hasn't fully come back to me yet how to operate all the menus. I'm wondering about these long term and short term fuel trim values and how they are different for Bank 1 and Bank 2.

Also, I notice the ignition timing bounces around every time I hit the refresh on the reader. Sometimes 0, sometimes 1.5 or 2.0, sometimes 5.0 or 7.0 degrees, all while fully warmed up and at idle. Think that would be normal?

Thoughts, anyone? Thanks!

Well, at least so far I have learned there is such a thing as wide ranged O2 sensors, or "air/fuel sensors". It threw me for a loop at first that my OBDII software said that the O2 readings were not available. The above data lists voltages for the downstream O2 sensors, but not for the upstream. After watching a few YouTubes, I realize that my upstream sensors are the wide ranged. The OBD Fusion software displays current and a fuel trim % for those, instead of a voltage. Still scratching my head to figure out how I can make a diagnosis out of all this....

So, I suckered and joined one of those "ask a professional" websites ($5 for a 7 day trial). Here is what I got:

Bank 2 cat doesn't really do anything to need change. It's just there for emissions. I recommend do a tune up on your car, new plugs and fuel system flush and new air filter if needed. Please let me know if you need further assistance.

Forgive me if I'm a bit underwhelmed. Seems to me like Bank 2 cat does the same job as Bank 1 cat, except it's on the other side of the car/engine. It may just be there for emissions but if it is off it can complicate engine management, right?

I saw another answer on that site for the P0430 problem, where the BMW mechanic said pretty much without hesitation to just replace the Bank 2 cat, and implied that it wouldn't be an O2 sensor since there were no O2 codes triggered. Not so sure about that, either.

been traveling, will look at this tonight, give you some thoughts. And yes, $5 pissed away

Have you replaced the O2 sensors yet? At the least the two pre-cat sensors. The replacement interval is 100k, you are 25k over.


So, lets get that done.


reference: https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh....php?t=1158473



Next, something is up with bank 2. I assume you have looked up short and long term fuel trims- maybe read a few websites, look at videos. The short term FT will fluctuate and, over time, will then influence the long term trim.


When I look at both banks, you can see the STFT goes postivie and negatve (the print outs have a range of values at the top- you can see it was moving around). Likewise the LTFT has excursions both + and -.


However, the bank 2 seems to be trending towards + in a big way. Both its range and current value are signicantly more.


This means the DME is seeing a relatively lean gas mixture at the O2 sensors- and it is having to add fuel (hence the + value on the fuel trim) to get the mixture back to target.


What could be making the mixture lean? Too much air? Is there an air leak in the intake? A small hose w a crack, fitting loose?



Can you run a vanos function test w your software? Post those results.

Well, it was almost $2 in entertainment value. Amazing how one "expert" can go straight to the most expensive part to replace and dismiss any other possible causes, while the other essentially says ignore that part and just do a tuneup, don't worry, and be happy.

OK, I will go ahead and replace the upstream sensors. They are pricier than the downstreams, so I will do some eBay shopping.

Thanks for the link, looks like a good thread. Will view in detail after I get off work this evening. Yes, I have been reading and watching youtubes on fuel trims, trying to get my head wrapped around it all.

I did notice the high LTFT on Bank 2. So, maybe I need to go snooping around all my hoses and air intake, etc. Wonder also if that lean condition could be caused by a fuel system problem. I would have thought that would trigger some kind of fuel system code, but maybe not, I don't know if it has any way to sense that. Maybe a bottle of Techron would be worth a shot.

Not sure if OBD Fusion does the vanos test. I will check on it.

Thanks!

When you say 'fuel problem', are you thinking 'something wrong with the gasoline itself'?!? No, that is NOT the issue.

I suppose there could be some injector or fuel pump issue, but I tend to ficus FIRST on the most likely. A feul pump issue would impact both banks equally... Bad injectors? Much less likely that an air leak.

No, not suspecting the fuel. I've been through many tankfuls, multiple brands and a bottle or two of fuel treatment since this all started, with no real difference observed.

OK, just a little update. Ordered the upstream O2 (air/fuel ratio) sensors and received them earlier this week. Trying to get them in this weekend.

I have a nephew-in-law who works as a tech at a Toyota dealership. Regarding the vacuum leak theory, he is doubting it b/c he thinks if that were the case it would be affecting both banks, not just Bank 2. I see his point, but then I also feel like it would depend on a lot of factors, not the least of which would be the location of the leak -- if there is one.

Yeah, a good point- although it can depend on location a bit. Can also be a leak combined with old sensor on one bank...



Can you perform a VANOS function test? When vanos soleniods become fouled w old oil, sludge, they can become sluggish and lead to odd performance issues. Not bad enough to throw a code, but they will either fail or show borderline VANOS test results. Should be a program in ISTA or other BMW-specific code reader/computer to do this. A sluggish vanos on one side can mean that side is not seeing the right AFR for part of the RPM range- you get hosed AFRs but it is never so bad, all the time, to trip a full AFR error code



Also, it has been broadly reported that throttle response is poor when the vanos isnt properly adjusting between low and higher RPMs.

Not sure. I will have to read up on VANOS (variable nockenwellen steuerung -- see what I've learned already?). Not sure if OBD Fusion gives a reading for that.

My O2 sensor socket did not fit yesterday so I bought one last night. Hope to dig back into it sometime today. Concerned about how far around the back of the engine I am going to have to chase to find the other end of the O2 wiring harness for Bank 1 Sensor 1, and about how tough it's going to be to reach Bank 2 Sensor 1. Probably less than 50/50 chance these new upstream sensors will fix the problem, but as you say, they need to be changed out anyway.

Read a few articles & watched a few youtubes on the VANOS. Sounds like an interesting avenue to explore, and I would like to get some readings.

Sounds like the VANOS is especially sensitive to oil viscosity. I admit I am way behind on my oil change schedule, and I could see that possibly affecting it. Yes, I know, I know. But, I was in an awful accident last year, spent a week in the hospital, and literally almost died. Thank God I didn't, but I got behind on a lot of things and I'm still trying to catch up. I do run Castrol Titanium 5W30 full synthetic though, and normally change annually or at 20K. It's been way over a year but the wife really doesn't put that many miles on it, so I really haven't been that concerned about it.

Give me my reprimand about the oil, and no doubt I need to go ahead and refresh it and the filter, but I do have a little trouble imagining that the VANOS would affect only Bank 2.

I don't know much about the Castrol Titanium oil you're using. I know that after 10k miles, the oil I use is pretty spent due to detergent depletion and excessive thinning. Why not grab a sample of your used oil at your next oil change and get it analyzed?

whoa dude.


20k? Thats nuts.


So vanos isnt so sensitive to viscosity...but crap in the oil, sludging up the screens in the vanos actuators WILL impact their motion. This causes the valve advance to be 'sloppy'. The DME is commanding one range, and ithe motor actually doesnt achieve that range fully or quickly. It doenst trip vanos codes, but it means the AFR will be off during those periods when the vanos is lagging or a bit off. Since the AFR is a long term adaptation, you get a persistent error (ie rich, lean) which is usually subcritical BUT affects cats, performance, throttle response.



Remind me, does your motor have two banks of vanos or one? My M5 has two, which is where I have all my vanos exposure. (My x5 is a D)

Yes, I have been running full synthetic oil with long change intervals for close to 20 years now. Never had an oil related problem before. I used to go 15K. Then probably about 10 years ago, after studying their published viscosity vs. mileage charts, I started with the Castrol Titanium at 20K intervals. I was commuting almost 200 miles r/t per day at the time, so it was a big help. Still no observed oil related problems, while approaching 300K with some of those rides before selling them off for other reasons. I used to replace filter only, halfway through the interval, but later just started buying extended life filters. Maybe these products don't live up to their long-life hype, I don't know. But, I got started on them and it seemed to work out.

Anyway, in this case with this vehicle, the wife doesn't log that many miles. It's been a little over a year and a half but only a little over 11K. I would have normally changed it about 6 months ago but haven't. The current problem started before then anyway. Would have normally attended to that much sooner as well but the whole having my head put back together with 5 titanium (there's that word again!) plates and having my mouth rebuilt just seemed to slow me down for a while.

Not sure if by two banks you mean like for cylinders 1-3 and 4-6, or one for intake and one for exhaust? Thinking it would have to be the separate intake/exhaust thing since it's an inline 6 motor and there is only one intake camshaft and one exhaust camshaft, right? From reading a few sites I think that is what's known as dual VANOS, which for some reason is what I was thinking I have. But, come to think again, I'm not sure. I'll have to look next time I'm under the hood to see if I can tell.

I read on one site that the VANOS needs to be rebuilt after about 50K and that by about 70K a rebuild is a must. You really think so? Seems kind of excessive.

Rebuilding a vanos at intervals was an m54, m52, and other older style vanos systems I believe. New vanos is solenoids coupled with valvetronic (again, I believe). I have never heard of rebuilding the vanos on any of the more modern BMW engines.

20k is a lot of miles. Annually I can understand, but 20k is longer than BMW's old 15k intervals and they (their customers) ran into all kinds of problems doing that. Sludge, wear, etc.

Frankly Im too annoyed to wade in. OCIs at 20k based on graphs?! SMH



You think you can look under the hood to figure out of you have separate vanos on bank 1 and bank 2?!? Google it.


https://us.autologic.com/news/bmw-vanos-system




good luck.

The calendar-year changes are mostly a thing of the past with modern oils. The OCI should be dependent on the specific oil you use and the type of drive cycles you operate on. Even then, the modern oils are much better at handling moisture and acids that can form when the oils doesn't get up to temperature for extended periods. When they reach their end of life, this ability can be reduced.

If your oil "sucks" then it might not support long OCIs well. If you accrue 11k miles over 20 years driving a mile to and from work every day, that's probably not conducive to longer OCIs either.

Really, the best way to determine your OCI by having the used oil analyzed to see when the TBN drops below an effective value, when wear metals increase above a desired threshold, the flashpoint is lowered, it thins out too much etc., etc.

Or don't. I'm not surprised you haven't had problems related to oil. Modern synthetics are fantastic and oil-related failures are ultimately rare no matter what oil is used. Also, 20k miles is not crazy-long. It's more than I'm comfortable with.

Oil is a contentious subject. It doesn't have to be. The oil I use in my diesel X5 is made by Mobil and although I do prefer Mobil 1 products, ultimately it's an oil that suits my diesel engine better than most with specifications that matter to the modern DI turbo-diesel: lowest SAPS, high HT/HS, stable 30W viscosity throughout life (based on my OCI analyses) and the lowest Phosphorus and Zinc. All specs that matter to a modern diesel with emission reduction systems.

What I'm trying to say is that with used oil analysis (UOA), review of the oil specifications, consideration of your vehicle and how you use it, it should be no problem determining what oil to use and how often to change it and be sure your maximizing your dollar and vehicle life.

That being said, you really don't know if dirty oil, or more aptly, your oil's inability to handle the increase in wear metals and the like, has contributed or is contributing to VANOS maladies that might be causing you issues. It is a fact that VANOS can be finicky and difficult. Fortunately, there is tons more VANOS information out there now than the dark days of the last and early this century. At 11k miles, oil is probably not your problem.

Ard is talking about the double VANOS on the E39 M5. It uses two VANOS banks that each control the intake and exhaust cams over each head. As an L6, you probably have a single bank controlling the intake and exhaust cams but some engines had VANOS that only controlled a single cam.

The VANOS test may reveal interesting data as would a UOA.

Good to know about the VANOS being less likely to need a rebuild these days.

The wife averages around 8K miles a year now, so if I'm changing annually, it's normally around 8K on this vehicle. It's at 11K now just b/c life has put me behind the curve a bit. I'm working now to restore my universe to its proper order.

Interesting idea. Any idea where I would go for a UOA, and what it costs? The State agency I used to work for did that with their vehicles & equipment, but I don't know a place where one can just walk in and have it done on demand. Maybe I'll Google.

I thought I might be able to tell by the shape of the cover, but no, you are right. So, I did Google pics of the N52 last night. Looks like dual VANOS, with one on the intake and one on the exhaust.

I don't see that affecting only Bank 2, but then I know strange things happen sometimes with trouble codes.

Failed solenoids (if lucky, dirty solenoids) is a very common problem with the N52. A faulty valvetronic is much less likely. I recently bought an e61 with the n52 that had been seriously neglected and had 180000 miles on it. Lots of sludge under the valve cover, stumbled/missed on idle slightly but not enough to throw a code. I cleaned the solenoids, changed the plugs, all coils (one was mis-matched), valve cover gasket, and flushed the engine twice with SeaFoam. Been a great daily ever since with no unusual idle, great throttle tip in, etc. Point being I don't think your issue with the code/stumbling is an oil problem. You could clean the solenoids for S's and G's, it's an easy 20 minute affair involving only a couple of 10mm bolts and a couple harnesses.

But I think you're going to have to find someone with a BMW specific code reader. I think it would speed things up tremendously. I find when working on BMW's... P codes are not very helpful in many cases. And stored codes (not active codes the ECU retains) can be equally valuable to a diagnosis.

OK, I've been siderailed with holiday stuff, company, etc., over the past couple of weeks from pursuing anything related to the main purpose of this thread. Hope to get back on it soon and at least get these upstream O2 sensors changed out. I'll post when I do.

Meanwhile, can't resist posting these 2 pics regarding the 20K oil change interval products. Do I realize that companies often over-tout the performance of their products for sales/advertising purposes? Yes, of course I do. However, it's a free country and I chose several years back to try out these products and the 20K intervals, b/c I was spending so much at the time on fuel and oil changes. Sure, I know it was a gamble but so far as I can tell, it's worked out (although as I discussed in previous posts I've never gone past 11K in the X).

You know, people once thought tomatoes were poisonous. Then, some guy decided to risk everything and try one on a BLT and he didn't die. I can understand anyone not wanting to try a tomato. Just lucky for me that guy did, though, else I wouldn't have any ketchup for my cheeseburgers and fries.:D
[IMG]https://xoutpost.com/members/x5cat-a...60-20ko-33.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://xoutpost.com/members/x5cat-a...61-20kf-30.jpg[/IMG]

If you had Used Oil Analyses (UOA) for your car, then I would say you are wise, careful and analytical.

Without that, you’re just a dead blowfish taster ...

I have no doubt that in specific circumstances and conditions, that oil can "last" 20k miles. As you say, companies tend to boast the capabilities of their products. I'm guessing the 20k mile claim is based on the additive package concentration and detergents in the clean oil being reduced/consumed at some average and assumed rate. Its probably a strong oil anyway.

Now that I'm driving more than ever, I, too, am interested in extended OCIs. I used to do 6-7500k miles because my trips and use were of shorter durations. Now that I'm driving an hour to and from work, I've pushed my OCI to 9k miles and looking to try 10k miles. I've had my used oil analyzed every time. 20k mile OCI in an auto diesel of our type is too long but 11k is probably safe.

Fram filters get a bad, often deserved, rap. Their cartridge filters are probably better than their canisters. I get OE filters at my dealer for $8 so that's what I use.

To bring this back, it's not your cat!

josiahg, where did you have your oil analyzed? I would be interested in doing that. Only thing I've found so far is one website that says $60 per test, and you need more than one test to provide a trend. Got to be a better deal out there, I'm sure. Do any of the big lube or tire chains do it, and any idea what they charge? (For the record, my X is not diesel.)

Look, I don't want to advocate anyone burning up their engine. If one feels better about sticking with the conventional 3-5K OCIs and don't mind paying for that "insurance", then by all means they should do so! I'm just relating what I have tried.

And yes, thanks for bringing this back. I hope you are right about it not being my cat. Just more trouble I could blame him for. Only 18 months old and he's already 20 lbs. and eating me out of house & home.:yikes: Seriously, one youtube I watched said it usually actually is the cat when it gives this particular "cat efficiency" DTC. I'm still hoping not and will continue to investigate.
https://xoutpost.com/members/x5cat-a...762-alfred.jpg

Blackstone Labs



https://www.blackstone-labs.com/?ses...ottyp%29%29%2F


$28


While you might be on your first UOA, they have an extensive database of results. And while it is important to trend results to see if something is going on, the simple question of "is this oil worn out" doesnt need multiple UOAs.


Post the results

Nice cat! Looks like some Maine coon in him. Especially given his size already.

I use Blackstone Laboratories who ard linked to above. Your first few will just tell you the condition of the oil itself at different mileages. You don't even have to necessarily change the oil at sample time. You can draw from the dipstick (on the X5d) or partial drain. I like to let it drain for about 20 seconds prior to drawing the sample, though.

Blackstone will recommend an OCI once the condition of the oil is known and as a specific trend develops. You can take it or leave it. You'll at least be aware. I just like data.

I would have thought it would be less than $28, but OK, I will go ahead and get a test on this 11K oil that I am about to change, and share the results here. I am curious to see what the deal is, for better or worse.

Yes, that's Alfred, the wife's full Maine Coon, thanks. Likes to take me outside on daily leash walks and chase big dogs. Seriously.

Although it's more money, until you've sampled enough to know how your oil responds to extended use, I'd recommend the TBN analysis for an extra $10. The final TBN along with other indications will determine your OCI at which point you know your engine and TBN can support it. After you've established the OCI, you won't need the TBN analysis and will only monitor wear metals and stuff.

Again, sweet cat. If I were choosing, I'd get one like him but I'm thinking of going to the shelter if I do.