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ML 63 amg drive vs E70
Now I know the ML 63 AMG is alot faster than the E70, but has anyone driven one and can you compare it to the E70 Sport suspension? I have found an ML 63 amg very slightly used for only 7k more than my E70. It is very tempting to get one just bc of the speed opposed to the E70. I love the E70 suspension and the tight feel, and bc there are no AMG's at the dealer to drive, I am trying to get opinions off of here. Any help, opinions, or cut downs about the ML 63 appreciated.
Thanks, Robert |
Apples to oranges comparison, but here is a review of ML 63 by a member here. He moved from E53 4.8is.
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The ML's used to be junk (especially the interior quality), but they are much improved, especially in AMG guise. That said, they are not the same experience in terms of the overall feel as the E70. I am not saying they are better or worse, since it's a very subjective matter. That said, in actual driving, you can't really exploit the performance advantage of the 6.2 over the 5.5 in that vehicle in day to day driving, so for most, the reason to buy the ML63 is for bragging rights and status. The 4.8 is a usuable increase in performance over the 3.0 in the BMW, but when the Twin Turbo comes, I forsee BMW having to upgrade the 4.8 as well or sales will plummet unless the price on the TT goes up to close to the current 4.8 pricing.
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I spent quite a bit of time in a few ML63's while deciding what to buy after getting rid of my E53 4.8is. THe first one I drove, impressed me greatly with its performance, and I liked the idea of a hand built engine considering the reliability issues I'd gone through with the 4.8.
Got hold of a ML63 for a day or two on extended test which is great without the saleman around. Took it around the city in traffic, out on the freeway for a blast, a special twisty bit of road in Melbourne where you can really find a car out etc. Was almost hooked BUT....... 1. could not get my head around the indicator stalk being so low 2. foot parking brakes in a $160k car? no thanks 3. handling was very mushy regardless of suspension setting so went away and thought some more. Organized another day in another demo and what a POS it was. The engine did not have the same pick up, the radio/nav fascia was so badly fitted that you could see 2mm gaps around it in places, and a few other things more visible in the lighter trim that I had not seen in the balck car I'd driven previously. It boiled down to the fact that obviously the quality and power varies and I decided that without the power, it wasn't that nice a vehicle. Driving experience, BMW hands down, handling, poise, comfort, ergonomics also cleans up. I actually thought the Cayenne out performed the ML63 for handling, although I'm sure once the 5.4 E70 comes out then BMW will up the ante even more and puill ahead further IMO. Cheers |
I checked out the ML, GL, Q7 & X5, (my daughter has a Toureg V8) and at the time I was an owner of a E53 sports, I was told that if you where going to buy the new E70 and wanted someting different in feel & handling wait until the adaptive Drive with Active Steer was available.
Which I did, to me this is a completely different car to drive than a normal E70, I mean it just sits flat on the road and through corners. It is a strange feeling until one gets a custom to it, usually cars lean or become unstable when you push them through tight twisting corners or through dips and camber changes in the road, but this is a great handling SUV. In everyday driving you may not see the need for this but on a country road is worth spending $6-7k extra for this option, especially in a 2400kg SUV. To me it gives you that sports car feeling. We travel 340klms every weekend to our beach house which incorporates city driving, freeway driving, two lane highway driving, then down country dual lane, ferry crossing, dirt road & 14klm of actual beach driving with a small creek crossing and if it is full tide and the surfs up then it 14klm of rally driving through 12" of soft powdery beach sand. (also watch out for the jellyfish because they drip like gue from the under carriage and in summer the smell is shocking) |
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M-B ML63 AMB vs. BMW X5 (Some Observations & Opinions from an Owner)
I just joined X5world today and decided to add my "2 cents" to this thread, based on my experience. I have a 2007 ML63 that I had ordered in 3/07 and took delivery in 6/07 and now have approx. 12,000 miles on it. Also, I previously had two BMW X5 4.4i’s - 2001 & 2004 models equiped all available options and with the sport package as well as the full BMW exterior aero body trim kits. I leased both of those vehicles for 3 years each. I felt then and still do that those two SUV/SAV's were the best all-round vehicles available at their respective time, with very car-like handling, yet with the advantages of all-wheel drive, high seat visability, storage capacity, (well ok, just enough capactiy....) and great aestetics inside and out.
In the spring of 2007 I test drove the 2007 BMW X5 4.8 and was surprised and disappointed to find that its handling was not quite as good as the 2004 X5 model. As previous posters have noted the acceleration on the ’07 BMW 4.8 is about the same as on earlier 4.4’s due to the added size and weight on the new model. (If BMW had put the M5 & M6's 500hp V-10 into the new X5 model as another option, it would have been a tougher choice for me and probably some others as well…). BTW, I also previously had a 2004 E55 AMG that completely corrupted and spoiled me for wanting to always have the ability to have brutally fast acceleration when I am driving. Having thoroughly enjoyed the power and build quality of my '04 E55, I decided to go with the ML63 and so far do not regret that choice at all. Did I consider the E63 AMG wagon? Yes, for a few seconds, but I am "old school" and it is still a station wagon, with all of the memories and connotations from my childhood, although probably the hottest wagon available. My neighbor has had three Range Rovers and has had nothing but problems with them, to the point where his RR Dealer gave him a new vehicle, (required under NJ’s Lemon Law), due to the number and extent of defects, failures and problems on his 2006 model. The only real negatives for the ML63 is its resale value will drop more and faster than the other two models and its gas mileage is poor, (I’m getting 18.5 mpg on the highway and around 12 mpg in city traffic). Therefore, I add my vote and recommendation to test drive a ML63 and see what you think and if it’s close comparison, and you don't mind spending an extra $10,000 over a fully loaded X5 4.8, go with the Mercedes. So now, if I want good gas mileage and fun driving I borrow my wife’s new 2007 BMW 335i twin turbo coupe w/sport pkg. since it gets well over 24 mpg on average and is almost as fast as my AMG SUV! BTW - Another observation about BMW vs. Mercedes-Benz, as a result of our two very recent acquisitions. BMW provides their "Assist" system free of charge for the first four (4) years of car ownership, whereas M-B TeleAid is free for just the 1st year then $240/year after that. Also my wife's BMW 335i comes with regular maintenance/service covered free-of-charge for the first 4-years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first. M-B used to have this program as well, (my '04 E55 was covered under it). Unfortunately, M-B decided last year to discontinue this program due to its high cost to them, transferring that cost to us owners. Oh well... AVB-AMG http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/ima...es/driving.gif |
Continuation of ML63 AMG to BMW X5 4.8
BTW - I am also a member of the MBWorld Discussion Forum and over the past year we have had a similar thread discussion on the pros and cons of the ML63 AMG compared to the BMW X5, as well as the Porsche Cayenne, Range Rover Sport, and a few others. If anyone is interested in reading more personal experiences and opinions of other owners and their thoughts on the BMW X5 then check it out for yourselves at the following web site link:
http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/sho...7970&highlight= AVB-AMG http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/ima...es/driving.gif |
Hey AVB-AMG - excellent 1st 2 posts - welcome!!!!
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I've driven all three. Get the ML63 if you want to go fast in a straight-line. Get the E70 4.8i if you want to go slower than the MB in a straight-line, but much faster in turns. Wait for the E70 __is model if you want to go faster in both a straight-line and the turns.
The E70's new front suspension geometry can't be touched. Every race car uses a double-wishbonse suspension like the because it yields the best possible camber curve and has less stiction than a strut type system. =better handling and grip, with less ride harshness. This geometry works very well upfront (like the E70) in fwd and awd cars. Imo, if you want the power and the handling, and can't wait, you should be looking at a Cayenne Turbo. Almost every product by MB is substandard in terms of engineering and quality; it's kind of like the Big 3, but German. |
I just wanna ad that AMG wit active Airmatic chassies is a dream to drive, however, i think the choice is easy made.
Just ask your self this Am I a Benz person or BMW I dont se it just as a ride but a lifestyle :) When i had my benz, wel i had the HP confort a loads of buttons, but it was not BMW :) PS. Count on that loaded AMG will give you as mutch hassle as any X on this forum :) Mine did... |
Responses to your thoughts with some more of mine....
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As far as M-B build quality, my 2007 ML63 is as good and in some ways better than both of my prior BMW X5's. Specifically, the electronics/audio system is a definite improvement over what was available at the time in the X5, where I did have a couple of on-again/off-again electronic gremlins. Also, having gotten used to the iDrive in my wife's BMW 335ci, I can work it ok, but still prefer the ML's "one-button" simplicity and convenience for many basic functions versus the distracting and therefore potentially dangerous requirement of several joy-knob pushes of the iDrive knob while looking at the screen to accomplish a similar desired functional result for the audio system, navigation or phone. Also, I disagree with your blanket statement that "almost every product by M-B is substandard in terms of engineering and quality". That is just not true, as most generalizations are not. As someone who has owned a Mercedes-Benz for 34 years, (a 1961 190SL) and a BMW since 2001 (7 years), I recognize and appreciate both marques for their unique position, history and offerings, recognizing that all mfgrs. have some periods of problems with quality, (i.e. Audi in the 80's and M-B. from 1999 - 2001). Unlike E5M1R's statement/question, asking if "you are either a Benz person or BMW person", my wife and I do not envision ourselves as one or the other. We don't want to limit ourselves to being classified by others as having to be either a dogmatic BMW or M-B patron or affectionato. Both M-B and BMW have spent much time and many $ marketing their respective brands and associated "lifestyles". We find aspects of both appealing, even though my wife tends to be a bit more pro-BMW than I am, probably because she is not a SUV person. God knows, I have spent a small fortune on all sorts of BMW & M-B accessories for all of our cars over the years. Based on both companies historical quest for innovation, I think both M-B and BMW make some of the finest cars available today, building on pasts successes (and failures). It is odd that they seem to take turns in various model runs, by providing vehicles that combine the factors that appeal to most of us. I don't blindly choose and stick with any one company. I have to be satisfied that their cars work for me, specifically appealing to my sense of design, my personal aesthetic tastes, overall build quality, functionality, durability, "fun factor", performance and yes, unfortunately and ultimately, affordability. One thing that I think we both can probably agree on is that most Japanese vehicle offerings have left me cold, but they are definitely getting better and more competitive to M-B and BMW. Finally, no car from M-B or BMW is perfect and probably never will be. Both AMG and M-Series vehicles, being more high strung may be prone to even more hassles, especially since us enthusiasts tend to drive them harder than owners of less spirited models. Also, as we demand that more and more features be included in our vehicles they will become even more complicated and more prone to periodic failure. My experience is that the mechanics and interior fit-out on both the BMW and M-B work just fine for the most part and are of high quality. It is the ever-more complicated electronics that have the most minor and major problems that cause us headaches. This is where both M-B and BMW could learn from the Japanese and their far superior electronics (i.e. touch screens). It will be very interesting to see if the upcoming new BMW 5-series (and subsequent other BMW's) will be getting an Apple-based audio/video/telephone interface that has been rumored for some time now.... Finally, (and you thought this diatribe would never end...), the way I look at it, when I drive either my ML63 AMG or my wife's BMW 335ci, I always start out with a smile on my face. Isn't that what all of us are basically looking for when we drive any of our vehicles....? AVB-AMG http://www.mbworld.org/forums/images...es/driving.gif |
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Let me ask you something AVB. Do you think M-B lost stature (at least in vinunevro's eyes, and many others I'm sure) because of the failed Daimler-Chrysler 10 year experiment? That's my guess, but I'm curious to get your take. What I saw from my vantage point in the late 90s was an elite German carmaker diluting their brand and reputation (and maybe even parts and materials??). One had to ask themselves: am I getting a true German Mercedes, or am I getting a Chrysler with a Mercedes logo? |
MB used to be a great company, but they've been floundering for at least a decade now. What about the company (today) is so great? Compared to BMW, are they the ones the first to use a new suspension design for an SUV, are they creating twin-vgt high efficiency engines, the first to use fiber-optics for vehicle data systems, as good at engineering handling/vehicle dynamics, using individual-throttle bodies, using new crankcase materials, styling their vehicles such that the industry copies, winning car-comparison tests, etc etc etc? And as far as the examples I've seen, getting good manufactuing quality in an MB is like playing the lottery.
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M-B & BMW: The Bigger Picture
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It appears that I have set myself up as the defender of Mercedes-Benz compared to BMW. Oh well, I will try to provide more of my perspective as a happy owner of both marques. A decade ago, I thought the acquisition, (not a merger), by Daimler-Benz of Chrysler made sense. The idea of German precision and American entrepenureship sounded like a good idea or at least an interesting experiment. I felt so positive of the union that I bought stock in the combined company. Needless to say, it was a poor financial investment and I sold at a steep loss. I won't waste your time in regurgitating why it did not work, but was glad to see Daimler finally sell 80% of Chrysler and wished they had dumped the other 20% as well. I think that Chrysler benefited more from adapting some M-B engines and other components in their vehicles than the other way around. M-B was concerned about that perception. Ultimately the culture clash was insurmountable, combined with egos getting in the way. Keep in mind that in the mid-1990's, both Mercedes-Benz and BMW made strategic decisions to manufacture some of their automobiles in the USA, (M-B in Alabama and BMW in South Carolina). Benefiting from a non-union, low cost labor force than what they would have paid in Germany or Austria. The initial downside to those decisions were the perception of both Americans and Europeans that the vehicles produced in the American plants would be of inferior quality compared to the cars made in Europe. Initially, those concerns turned out to be somewhat true and both BMW and Mercedes had to spend much time, effort and money to improve the quality control at these plants. The result is, in my opinion, that both BMW X5's and M-B ML's produced in the USA are as good as their sister German/Austrian produced cars. On another note, I do think that both M-B and BMW are struggling trying to figure out how to remain successful moving forward in an ever-more competitive international market where there is an over capacity of manufacturing of automobiles (i.e. the 3 major U.S. car makers) Combine this with a reluctance of many manufacturers to face the inevitable reality that we the consumer, regardless of nationality, want good quality vehicles that are dependable and reliable and will not buy cars that don't meet that criteria. With the Chinese market rapidly maturing and becoming a consumer and producer force in the automobile market, it will be very interesting to see what alliances they promote and what vehicles the Chinese people demand. Smaller, yet wealthier auto producers, like Porsche find the acquisition of VW attractive since that would allow them to diversify while still meeting the ever more restrictive fuel requirement in Germany and the EU. BMW has historically been the only true independent car company of its size that has been financially strong enough to remain independent. Also, with the steady increase of fuel costs, we Americans are finally realizing and experiencing what the rest of the world already knows and has to live with. Gasoline and diesel fuel prices that are at a minimum, 3x what we have had to pay per gallon. I am just as guilty as most every other American in my stubborn resistance to migrate to a more fuel efficient vehicle that also happens to be fun to drive. I realize that at some point in the not-to-distant future all of us will be driving some form of econo-box that probably will not be nearly as much fun as what we all are driving now. Our era will have passed... Addressing some of vinunervo's comments: "MB used to be a great company, but they've been floundering for at least a decade now. What about the company (today) is so great? Compared to BMW, are they the ones the first to use a new suspension design for an SUV, are they creating twin-vgt high efficiency engines, using fiber-optics for vehicle data systems, as good at engineering handling/vehicle dynamics, using individual-throttle bodies, using new crankcase materials, styling their vehicles such that the industry copies, winning car-comparison tests, using direct-yaw awd, etc etc etc? And as far as the examples I've seen, getting good manufacturing quality in an MB is like playing the lottery." Ok, here it goes:
AVB-AMG http://www.mbworld.org/forums/images...es/driving.gif |
Before I switched to BMW in 2004, our household had 14 new Mercedes-Benz cars from 1997-2004! So, I know Mercedes really well (even had 2 old, diesel Benzes during that period).
Yes, the Merger between between MBZ and Chrysler did hurt Mercedes, but as SO MANY people are confused...Mercedes took over Chrysler. Chrysler was essentially a German ran American car company. From many inside sources that we have at major US MBZ dealerships, the main problem for Mercedes began in 1998/1999 when Mercedes began getting a lot (almost the majority) of their parts from former Easter Bloc countries, opposed to getting them from native Germany, or "western Europe". Mercedes was pouring SO much money into Chrysler, that to save money, they cost cutted with their own parts, for the Benz brand. As MBZ found out fairly quickly...bad, bad decision. MBZ has really, really turned around, and many of their vehicles now have great reliability, and their designs are classically German. Mercedes hasn't irritated a lot of buyers, as BMW has with "flame surfacing" and odd Bangle designs. I've had 8 Bimmers since 2004, and most have been really good. A lot of us forget, before MBZ declined in ratings....BMW was known for being a lot of maintenance. Still in Germany, almost every taxi is a MBZ, because traditionally they have a very long road life. |
Thanks
Just wanted to say Thank you to
AVB-AMG http://www.mbworld.org/forums/images...es/driving.gif |
I like you, AVB-AMG. Welcome. Excellent comments.
To me, the ML63 AMG is a very desirable 'ute, but like all others have said, quite different from the X5. In my humble opinion the BMW is not wanting for power. 350hp is more than adequate on a daily basis, not to mention its effortless passing power, sexy exhaust note and a ride/handling balance that is second to none. It is also realistically about $25K less than the Merc, although not the one you're looking at, I suppose. But if you want the power that pushes it "over the top," go for the Merc. You'll suffer in terms of dynamics, but when it all comes down to it, these are still big, heavy SUVs, and there's a limit on how much fun you can really have in the corners. I still vote for the X5--but only by a hair. |
BMW X5(E70) vs. M-B ML63 AMG (W164)
X5audi:
Thanks for your kind words. My responses to your posted thoughts are: :iagree: I agree with you that the BMW X5 (E70) and the M-B ML63 AMG (W164) are different vehicles. I dare say that the current ML63 is more of a "Sports Activity Vehicle" (SAV) than the current X5 is. I owned/leased both an '01 followed by an '04, BMW X5 (E53). They both were really more of a SAV (marketing aside...), due to their slightly smaller size and no pretending to be an off-road vehicle compared to the larger and more traditional SUV's which had true off-road capabilities. When BMW evolved the E53 into the E70 for the '07 model year, it grew in size to accommodate the third row seat option, to meet that market demand, something that I have no interest in. When I test drove one of the first available E70's at my local Dealer in the spring of 2007 my impression in comparison to the E53 was favorable except for the following issues that were and are important to me: - It was and felt like a larger vehicle and did not handle as crisply as my E53. The E70 had more body roll in the turns. - The 4.8 L engine's increased hp helped the E70 somewhat but I felt that its acceleration was just a tad bit slower than my 4.4L E53. (This may not have been a fair comparison since the engine of the E70 I test drove had only approx. 75 miles on it and my E53 engine was completely broken in....) - BMW's iDrive is something that I found then and still find to be a really good concept that unfortunately in is current somewhat improved state is still unnecessarily complex and requires too much distracting effort. - At that time in March '07, the Aero Kit was not available yet for the E70 and when it finally was I found it to be too much of a minor change from the stock vehicle. I had full body Aero Kits installed on both my '01 and '04 E53 (in Brilliant Silver) which truly differentiated the vehicle from the stock E53's that were becomming ever more popular and appearing in neighboring driveways. I was disappointed that BMW migrated away from the monochromatic body color style of the Aero Kit for the E70 version. The German M Sport Package for the E70 that became available in the summer of '07 is a mixed bag in my opinion. I think the rear looks great but the front was awful, looking like a really bad aftermarket attempt of customization. See for yourself by reading the article and viewing the photos at the following web site link: http://www.egmcartech.com/2007/06/01...port-unveiled/ - Finally, I was thoroughly embarassed that it took me about one full minute to figure out how to open the glove compartment on the E70. I did not notice the button on the left side for what seem like an eternity!... (and I am an Architect!)!ouch: Engine Power: You are correct and I also agree that 350 hp is more than adequate on a daily basis for the vast majority of people who consider buying and ultimately do buy an X5 (E70). The 4.8L engine in the E70 does not give the vehicle as much "pep" as the similar engine did for the X5 4.6i and subsequent X5 4.8i E53 models due to the E70's increased size and weight. I admit that I am one of the few aficionados for whom more horse power really is more desirable, allowing for much quicker acceleration and the primal masculine thrill that results from it. :rofl: I rationalize that it makes the vehicle safer for entering congested highways, as well as being a heck of alot of fun! Since the US speed limits are what they are, top speed capability is not really an issue here, with or without factory-installed limiters. As far as comparison of each vehicle's "exhaust note", the ML63 AMG wins hands down, IMHO, (not....!). Go to the YouTube website links below to hear for yourself the sweat gutteral exhaust sounds of the ML63 AMG while accelerating.:zoom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjBgtVRjO6A&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxWRg...eature=related I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that by going with the ML63 you "will "suffer in terms of dynamics". Since the '07 ML63 is about the same size as my last '04 X5 (E53), I found that they both have very similar handling characteristics in the turns, with the BMW being just a tad bit tighter than the the M-B, (with both having their respective traction control systems fully engaged). The larger brakes on the ML appear to provide shorter stopping distances, in my opinion. Excluding the acceleration factor, the overall ride, handling and balance for each vehicle is very similar with my nod going to the ML63, due primarily to the fact that it is a slightly smaller sized vehicle in its length and height than the X5 (E70) and the added power allows me to power out of turns in a way that just is not possible with either the E53 or current E70. BTW, the ML63 has a dead weight of 5,063 lbs. vs. the X5 (E70) weight of 5,335 lbs, a difference of 272 lbs. As far as the cost comparison between a fully option loaded '07 BMW X5 (E70) and a fully option loaded '07 ML63 AMG, using MSRP for the base price, all options and destination/delivery charge, I found that the difference was only about $10,000. The X5 was approx. $84,000 and the ML63 approx. $95,000. The BMW & M-B Dealers I contacted were all willing to negotiate approx. 5% off of those prices to make a deal. You are correct that if you decide to go with less options you can get a very nice X5 (E70) for $70,000 (MSRP). I am probalby in the category of drivers whose car preferences and therefore requirements include power and acceleration that most people would consider "over the top". I decided to go with the ML63 instead of the X5 (E70) for this reason. The obvious downside is the added cost of the ML63 and poor gas milage that for me is compensated by being such a fun vehicle to drive. Since I lease my cars I am not too concerned with the big hit of depreciation that all AMG owner's get in the first 1-2 years of vehicle ownership, :( (which makes one seriously consider the value of buying vs. leasing.) I am going to be very interested to see what BMW, M-B, and yes even Audi, will be offering for the model years 2010 and 2011, when my lease ends in mid-2010 on the ML63. Will the Auto Mfgrs. come up with some form of hybrid engine that will provide both breathtaking acceleration when desired, yet allow for more sane and economical motoring for most of the time? Will we all be suffering even more then with what will most likely be even more insane gasoline and desiel fuel costs..... Who knows? For the times I really want to get good gas mileage and have true fun driving in the "twisties" and don't need to haul all of our stuff on a long trip, I borrow my wife’s 2007 BMW 335i twin turbo coupe w/sport pkg. since it gets well over 22 mpg on average. BTW - another observation about BMW vs. Mercedes-Benz, as a result of our two acquisitions in 2007. BMW provides their "Assist" system (vs. the M-B version called “TeleAid”, free-of-charge for the first four (4) years of car ownership, whereas M-B TeleAid is free for just the 1st year then $240/year after that. Also my wife's BMW 335i comes with regular maintenance / service covered free-of-charge for the first 4-years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first. M-B used to have this program as well, (my '04 E55 was covered under it). Unfortunately, M-B decided last year to discontinue this program due to its high cost to them, transferring that cost to us owners. Oh well... Anyone else want to share their thoughts on any of this...? :stickpoke (ok, I just discovered how to insert all of these silly smilies, please forgive me.) AVB-AMG http://www.mbworld.org/forums/images...es/driving.gif My current & recent car history: 2007 Mercedes-Benz ML63 AMG (Daily Driver) 1961 Mercedes-Benz 190SL (prof. restored fair weather weekend joy ride, owned for 33 years) 2007 BMW 335ci twin turbo coupe (wife's sweet car) 2004 Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG (Leased/Returned) 2004 BMW X5 4.4i (w/full Aero Kit - Leased/Returned) 2001 BMW X5 4.4i (w/full Aero Kit - Leased/Returned) 2000 Mercedes-Benz E430 Sport (Leased/Returned) |
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And I am among them :thumbup: My next car will most likely enjoy sub 5-sec 0-60 times. Quote:
When talking about dynamics, I was mostly referring to a normal ML (350 or 550), not the AMG. It's not the fairest thing to compare a purpose-built performance SUV to a larger SUV built to balance comfort, versatility and performance in one tidy package. My X5 was about $65,000 before taxes. It has everything I could possibly need, very well-equipped. I would be surprised to see anyone with an $84,000 E70. At that level you may as well get a Range Rover. One question I have to ask: if you're so into performance, why do you have an SUV? There are better performance cars than the ML63 at the price. M5, E63, RS4, Carrera S, slightly-used Maserati Quattroporte, to name a few. Are you simply into trucks? Something tells me advanced hybrids won't be coming from the Germans any time soon--perhaps diesel-hybrids, with the emphasis on the diesel. Such diesel cars as the 335d, A5 3.0TDI, E320 Bluetec and others are simply fantastic in any way you can imagine. I assume you know a fair amount about modern diesels? And don't worry about the smilies. We all do them, we're all dorks here. ;) |
How I narrowed the choices down to the ML63 AMG & BMW X5 4.8
Thanks for your response X5audi. I see that you are a night owl as well….
A couple of comments in response… Range Rover - While I like the aesthetics of the Range Rover and Range Rover Sport, the poor build quality of the mechanical aspects of these vehicles over the past several years has made most knowledgeable care buyers very leery about buying or leasing them. Especially when one is about to spend $85K - $100K on a vehicle. Am “I simply into trucks?” Yes. I do like SAV’s (trucks), having had two of them (BMW X5’s) over a six year period. At the same time I also had an ’04 M-B E55 AMG which totally corrupted me towards truly enjoying brute acceleration capability. Last year, when the leases were ending on the most recent X5 and E55, I decided that I wanted my next daily driver to be more functional than the E55, while not sacrificing the performance capability. Also, my wife wanted to get a smaller car that would be fast, fun, reliable and easy to park. The result was her ’07 BMW 335ci with the Sport Package. That meant for my vehicle, which would be a daily driver, I had to take into account our other vehicle needs, as well as my desires. It had to be practical, (well ok sort of practical….), functional and fun. Specifically, it had to have all of the following: · A vehicle that I think looks very good (obviously a very personal opinion) and one that you do not see all the time. I appreciate a certain level of uniqueness of the vehicles I drive. (That is part of the reason I added the full Aero Kits to both of my previous X5's.) · All-wheel drive for the approx. 14 days of snow covered roads here in the Northeast. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that my ML63’s 20” wheels and OEM Continental tires were actually able to work ok (slow driving), on light snow covered roads. (I have no illusions that they would work in 6” or more of snow covered roads, realizing that I would really need to have a second set of narrower 18” wheels fitted with true snow tires to use the vehicle). · Enough space to accommodate my wife’s and my luggage when we travel around the eastern seaboard on vacation. That means two (2) cart-size golf club bags, our luggage which usually includes four (4) suitcases / garment bags of varying sizes, one cooler and one case of wine, and any other stuff that for whatever reason we want to also bring along for God only knows why…. (This means we need to utilize the entire back seat area as well as the cargo area). · A high, (or higher compared to a regular car), driver’s seating position for better road visibility. · Acceleration capability of 0-60 mph in under 5 seconds. · Some form of satellite-based communication system for its safety value. · Solid build quality. · Good Dealership attention and service I was willing to sacrifice good gas mileage. That decision is and will continue to be an expensive one…. These reasons really narrowed down my consideration to the offerings from BMW and Mercedes-Benz and specifically the X5 and ML63. Modern diesel engines. I do know about them, their upcoming improvements to be able to be legal in all 50 states and as a result do like them. I have rented several vehicles in Europe in the past couple of years with diesel engines and have been quite satisfied, including a BMW 5-Series and a Peugeot. Their high torque is great, but low RPM engine sound is too-truck sounding for my taste for now… (maybe in the future though). Also, with the current high cost of diesel fuel in the USA and the fact that I like to lease my vehicles for an approx. 36 month period, it would be very difficult to justify the additional upfront cost of a diesel power plant in a vehicle over the gasoline version of the same vehicle. I simply would be spending more money over the lease period. Too bad that Audi does not export their V-10 diesel SUV to the US. If they did, I just might change my mind sooner…. AVB-AMG http://www.mbworld.org/forums/images...es/driving.gif |
Very specific needs, and it seems like you found the perfect vehicle. I can't imagine the X5 being satisfactory after an E55 AMG.
Did you consider the Porsche Cayenne Turbo? I personally prefer the Merc, and I'm not even a Mercedes guy. There is no news regarding the Q7 V12 TDI's availability. It is, as of now, only a concept. However, there is a big possibility of production, and if that happened it could very well come to our side of the pond. Contact your Audi dealership if/when the news is confirmed to see if you can place your order :thumbup: |
Yeah, the Cayenne Turbo is pretty sick if you're looking for a true Racer-SUV. Assuming you have the $$$. I believe it's still the fastest production SUV?? I don't think the ML-63 AMG will outgun it.
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M-B ML63 AMG vs. Porsche Cayenne Turbo S
X5audi & StanF18:
Yes I did consider the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, since its performance is the same as the ML63 AMG, whereas the Turbo or base model are not as fast as the ML63. The reasons I did not consider it further include:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=X_w6a5O1d...related&search= If I wanted a true racer SUV I would have bought a Jeep SRT 8. It is a true hot-rod that is faster 0-60 mph than either the ML63 or the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, but as you reach 90-100 mph the greater torque of the M-B and Porsche will allow them to pass the Jeep. The Jeep is a lighter vehicle but with an interior filled with very low-quality materials (plastic everywhere). But to be fair, it was designed to not exceed a certain price point and it has not.... |
With the X6 available soon, the Porsche GTS, Porsche Turbo, and the facelifted ML63.... which would you choose and why if you were buying today (assuming the X6 was available fully)?
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Well what about the newer models & BMW X6???
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I will not seriously consider any Porsche or Range Rover models for the foreseeable future for all of the reasons mentioned in my earlier posts. I think the 2007 M-B ML63 was, and after seeing the minor face-lift changtes to the '09 model at this years NY Auto Show several weeks ago, is still is the best looking performance SUV, compared to the BMW, Porsche, Range Rover and Jeep. Several weeks ago at the New York Inter'l. Auto Show, I was most disappointed with the new exterior front and rear bright chrome underpanels on the face-lifted 2009 ML63 AMG. IMO, they create a most unfortunate "bling" :mantis: or :ghetto: factor that the vehicle does not need and detracts from the cleaner lines and monochromatic appearance of the previous body-colored front and rear underpanels. Also, in the front they made the previously body-colored "belt" bar where the license plate would be located, a matte black color that begins to give the front end a very "Audi style/appearance" that I personally do not care for. The minor modifications that I do like and are a real improvement include: - LED tail lights (much better design and brings the ML up to current industry standards in tail lamp lighting) - Red Reflectors in rear bumper (a practical safety feature that looks good as well. Similar to what the BMW X5 has) - Larger exterior rear view mirrors (an improvement for rear visability with larger turn signal lights embedded in the casing) The other minor modifications that don't really impact the vehicle's appearance, practicality, function and therefore seem to deserve the "why bother...." question, include: - Minor wheel style changes (I prefer the original design better) - Headlights silhouette (no big deal) - Steering wheel (spokes changed; I wonder if the wood wheel is still available as an option?) - Rear seat entertainment option (no longer integrated into the back of the headrests, but separate LED screens that are attached to the back of the headrests and IMO look very much like an after-market addition, most unfortunate...). I strongly suggest people see the vehicles themselves, if possible, and not just rely on the posted photographs, before making your final judgement. For example, the chrome front and rear underpanels on the face-lifted ML63 are much more pronounced and "louder" in reality than any of the photos I have seen since the show. I still think the ML63 AMG is an excellent vehicle and a hard one to beat for anyone who needs to comfortably accommodate four people and their stuff, while not wanting to sacrifice smile-inducing acceleration, performance, engine sound and fun of driving, along with all of the advantages of owning a Mercedes-Benz and can afford and don't mind spending the premium cost for one. :2thumbs: So what about the BMW X6.....?:dunno: I have been waiting with baited breath :drool: for the BMW X6 which as a concept I felt would appeal to a small, niche segment of the motoring population, of which I am certainly a solid member. Since my wife and I are the only ones that would use it, we can justify it more so than families with children. But when I first saw the photos of the two X6 models I had very mixed feelings. Also at the NY Auto Show I saw the X6 up close, since they had 3 of them there. On the lower level where 2 were located the public was able to sit in the V-8 version, which is the one that interests me. The driver's seat position, comfort level and instrumentation is excellent, very similar to that of the X5. The view out the front is great but really poor and limited to the rear via the rear view mirror. As a 200 lb / 6ft male, I was curious just how much room I would have in the rear seat. The legroom was not too bad, but I could barly fit one finger's thickness between the top of my head and the roof headliner, making me realize that the back seat is no place for average height adults. The cargo space was the most disappointing to me. It is very small with a hard "tri-fold" cover over the space that can limit actual storage space even more. It would not be very accommodating for our carrying needs for any extended vaction trip with our luggage requirements, (see my earlier post....). Like many of the posts on the X6 forum in xoutpost.com I share some basic first impressions:
I am always thinking what I may want to do for my next vehicle when the lease on my M-B ML63 ends in mid-2010. The BMW X6 was and may possibly still be a contender for me. But as has been speculated in this forum, if BMW finally does offer an X5 with a significanly more powerful engine and with suspension and break tweaks to match, then that would be far more appealing to me and would meet our practical needs and my lust for fast acceleration, better than the X6. So to finally answer your question, I hope that I can say that a 2010 BMW X5 will meet all of my requirements. But of course we will just have to wait and see and until then enjoy driving our respective vehicles. How about you cu03? and for that matter, everyone who has posted comments and opinions on this thread since mid-'07, including StanF18, X5audi, deutcsh100, vinuneuro, E5M1R, X5Jay, watrob, LVR, Shumdit, RLee371.....:excited: What do you any of you think about the X6? Is it a possibly option for you for your next vehicle to replace your current X5? Why or why not? Anybody else have an opinon on these comparisons?:stickpoke (Feel free to be brief, something that I seem not to be able to do in this forum....) AVB-AMB http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/ima...es/driving.gif |
Welcome aboard AVB-AMG...interesting comments, quite in-depth. The performance bug has been biting me once again and I doubt it's boredom with a well-tuned 4.6is. I've tested the ML63; Cayenne w/turbo; Jeep SRT8...loved the performance of them all but preference is definitely in order as mentioned.
Making a long story long...I've resulted to patiently awaiting the arrival of an X6 ///M and the next-generation X5 performance SAV (whilst crossing my fingers and toes for a V10 TT for X5)...again welcome and great feedback. :thumbup: :popcorn: |
I went and looked at the X6. Didn't care for the back of the SAV at all. I have a '04 4.8is with 22000 miles on it now. I think the new X5 4.8i needs some more power. I think they need to get the performance up on the X5 for me to consider it for the next purchase. Otherwise it would be the Ml63 or the Cayanne GTS.
Who knows. The gas prices are killing me at almost $85 so for a complete fill up. Oh well, you wanna play you gotta pay. Curtis |
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-I don't care very much about the roadside assistance features; we do have cell phones and I always carry mine. -Porsche dealers aren't known for excellence. -Yes, it is ridiculously expensive, I agree. I tested both the '06 Cayenne S (before refresh) and '08 Cayenne S (after refresh with 380hp) before going with the X5. The X5 feels like a tank, but it also feels connected, while the Cayenne just felt big. A lack of road feel, a subdued exhaust note and a cheap, cave-like interior were turnoffs. To top that all off it would've costed $15K more than our X5. Edit: Interesting notes on the X6. :popcorn: The one thing I have ton wonder is why you said the rear looks better "from the exterior..." As opposed to the back of the car looking good from the inside? :confused: |
Not sure you will be happy with the Cayenne GTS. Drove it a couple of weeks ago as I am in the market and was at the dealership having a car serviced. I am not a big fan of the Cayenne styling but the GTS is the best looking Cayenne in my opinion – Aero package, 21 inch rims, nice sport seats, etc. I have driven the ML63, X5, and Cayenne turbo. The GTS is the best handling SUV I have driven. Unfortunately the GTS only has 405 HP. It has the Turbo front and rear but not the turbo engine. The 0-60 time with the tiptronic is 6.1 vs. the X5 V8 of 6.4. The interior is also a generation behind the X5. In addition, the price is $85 to $90K with just basic options. The one I drove was almost $100K. With the ML63 about $90K and a loaded X5 around $70K, the GTS did not make much sense to me unless you HAD to have a Porsche.
On a different note -I assume Mercedes has fixed the quality issues with the ML? |
SCH, good points and thanks for the feedback on the GTS. I have not seen it or driven it in person yet. I don't have to have a Porsche. I would really like the X5 with more power. That will solve it all for me. I personally think the X5 looks the best, followed closely by the ML63 (and only the ML63... no other ML anything). I didn't realize the GTS would come in so expensive. Oh well lets see what BMW does with the X5 in 2009 as far as power is concerned.
Curtis |
As has been pointed out in this forum and the MBWorld.org forum that I also am a member of, the overall build, (fit and finish) quality of all Mercedes-Benz models has definately improved from the 1999 - 2002 period models. During that period, M-B made the disastorous decision to try to save money by having some parts made in the former Eastern Bloc countries. The results were constant failures of those parts and a major black-eye to M-B's reputation for high quality. Since the '04 model year, M-B has made major improvements to their overall vehicle quality, using better suppliers and having instituted a more successful quality control program in their German, Austrian and US factories. The AMG models have some added quality areas, other than obviously the engines..., specifically the brakes, suspension and seats.
BTW, I wonder if BMW will perform some type of minor face-lift to the front end of the X5 (E70) for the 2010 model year, addressing what many of us think is one of the weakest design aspects of the current design, of what otherwise is quite solid and a real improvement over the earlier E53 models? If they do that and make the twin turbo V8 engine an option, and possibly add some other M-level trim options, then I think a fully-equiped version of that X5 would be a contender for the new "King of the Hill" of SAV's AVB-AMG http://www.mbworld.org/forums/images...es/driving.gif |
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