Concerned but optimistic
 

I would bet that there are a few, if not more, people on this forum that are waiting for all of the current issues to be worked out before jumping in and buying this SAV. It seems the more I read this and other forums on real world E70 experiences, the more I start looking for other purchase options. I love everthing about this model and want to order one by the end of the year, but am having a difficult time pulling the 70k trigger due to all of the issues current owners are having. I've had a '03 Sequoia for almost 5 trouble free years and want desperately to hear some consistant praise from owners who don't feel like they have a second home at the BMW Service Dept. I want Toyota quality with BMW design and performance. I don't think you should expect anything less when spending this kind of money for a vehicle. I realize all makes have their "dogs" and most vehicles have issues their first year, but it appears this one has had its share. There is nothing wrong with waiting, but it's so hard to do when you're ready for a change. C'mon BMW, don't release the '08's until you sort all of the reoccuring defects out. I can wait, but not forever:thumbup:

Buy a Lexus if you are overly concerned with the issues you have seen here. E70 issues will be resolved by the FY09 model. BMW doesn't have Asian build quality, never has, and (as with most companies) fixes issues with each new MY not in the interim. From what I've seen here on the E70, its first year bugs are no different then the FY E53 or most other first run Bimmers.

My wife has the Lexus and has had zero issues on her '03 first model year GX470. They (BWW) would do well to study the Lexus quality model. BMW has the design and has the performance, but quality is defficient. Increased quality goes a long way when justifying higher pricing. Why should it be "acceptable" to you or any other potential BMW customer to wait 2 or 3 model years for bugs to be worked out? I'm itching to buy this vehicle, but I want proof they can work it out. With all that said, looking at the latest sales data, it doesn't seem to be hurting the bottom line too much.

You know it doesn't have to be that way. Maybe that is the reason the 07 X5 sales for August this year are trailing last year August. I would think they are in the business to sell cars and all these quality issues sure don't help sales. Just my opinion and I have put a lot of miles on Bimmers and I am hesitating also.

So are you comparing the sales of the E70 to the E53??

I have yet to own a BMW that didn't have some queer issue, my E46 weatherstripping fell of, my other E46 heated seats burned through, my X5 burned seat and the trans crapped out one day along with a window regulator, my E60 had to have the whole CD replaced along with the sunroof mounts. See I would never trade the driving fun and looks of my BMW's along the way. However, some buyers pick them up only for the Roundel emblem or because they simply have a ton of money and those are usually the ones who complain about BMW 'reliability' IMO, either because it is a 'hassle' or because they can't afford the repair.

I'm in the same position. I love the looks and the drive of the E70, but since this will be my daily driver, I do not have the paitence to deal with frequent trips to the service department.

I'm OK with the few bugs I've had in my M3, since this is a full on performance car, but the X5 is an SUV and as such BMW should strive to make dependable.

My Land Cruiser has provided me with 5 years and 112,000 miles of completely problem free driving without a single visit to the shop. Last time it was at the dealer was the day I bought it.

The only BMW that ever got close to Toyota reliability was the E46 3-Series. I wish the X5 was just half as reliable.

Anyway, it's a sad day for me. I really like the E70 and have anticipated getting a MY08, but I believe I'll pass and just stick with my M3 for fun on the weekends.

Amazing how thrilled you are to to own vehicles that all seem to have quality issues.

You don't think someone "with a ton of money" who buys a BMW should not complain about reliability if it has issues?? You are kidding right? A friend of mine bought a $80,000 BMW 650 and he had an issue with water in his headlights. He had to go back to the dealer repeatedly to take care of the issue. There is no way on a vehicle of that caliber and price that he should have problems like that. So in a few years when things start to need to be replaced or break he should sit there and smile because his car looks good and is fun to drive?

Damn right buyers should expect to get a high quality vehicle that does not have anything go wrong with it, anything. Why should owners have to pay exorbitant BMW prices for simple things to break that should last more than 50,000 miles (E53 Transmissions, CV Joints, Boots, Window Regulators, etc....)?? Not only have these issues but sit there and smile and say "I don't care about all of the costly things that have broken on my BMW because I can afford it and my BMW looks good!!"

These are expensive luxury cars that should be designed and built to a high standard. I bet BMW would agree with me on that. Or they could start a new ad campaign:

"Drive a BMW for the fun and the style and suck it up on the repairs!"

All of the issues I have experienced w/ my E70 are minor...and they would not prevent me from buying another E70. I love mine and would not own the equaivalent Lexus if you paid me extra.

BTW- this is a forum where owners usually show up to discuss problems, it does not represent the majority of E70's made. Go to the Lexus and Acura forums and read their troubles...its no different.

To the OP: forums usually tend to overstate problems, since it's the first place owners come to discuss (and moan) about their problems. You will not find a daily thread titled "Today was another excellent day, as usual, in the BMW. All systems worked fine. No problems here".

The E70 is a relatively new model, and every car, regrardless of make or model, has first year bugs. I don't know if you know this, but last year, every Toyota model was affected in some way or some percentage by a recall. Issues ranged from power steering problems (Prius and others) to transmission failures on the Camry to gas pedal issues on the Lexus RX to defective side airbags (like on my friend's tC).

BMWs are far more complex and more reliant on software than their Japanese counterparts. For instance, the automatic gearbox has Adaptive Transmission Control which learns your driving style based on past driving behavior and load while deciding which of 5 different shift maps to use at any given time, based on throttle inputs, braking inputs, g-sensors, yaw angles, and engine temperature. The computer monitors the gas pedal position 200 times per second. It's not just "Drive" or "manual mode" like other automatics.

Yes yes, BMWs overall are not as reliable as Japanese counterparts in general. However, the latter cannot match Teutonic engineering and driving dynamics. By buying BMWs, we basically agree to put up with the occasional hiccup in exchange for something that is fun to drive all the time and never grows old.

There's a 4 yr/50k mile warranty and free scheduled maintenance for 4 yr/50k miles as well. Oil changes, wiper blades, brakes are paid for.

:iagree: "The grass is greener on the other side."

The number of people in this type of forums only represents a small fraction of the actual owners. I only joined this forum a few months ago and it's amazing to find out that there were a lot of complaints on the E53 when I personally had no problems at all for the 3 years that I drove it. The same thing applies for the E70 or any other cars weather BMW, MBZ or Toyotas. There are thousands out there who are happy with their cars and we don't even hear about it. Heck, I did not pursue a lease on a RR Sport because of all the reliability issues that I read but yet, my next door neighbor who owns a 2 year old RR Sport is very happy with his ride.

Just my 2.

:confused: :confused:
The point is, be aware of what you're getting going in. I don't see how one day of my life taking a car to have work done to it someone rights off the model, apparently I'm not in the minority as BMW sales are doing fine.

Owners don't have to pay for a BMW, they choose to. Don't cry a river when you knew the model might have issues going in. You're making it sound as though I said BMW can do it and you need to deal with it, what I said was these are known problems with the vehicle. Take a pill.

BTW, they did start your campaign..where do you think the 4yr/50K free service came from.

BINGO.

I don't know where you got that info.

Please see Lemans' posting:

BMW SAV sales for August 2007
Sales of BMW Sports Activity Vehicles increased by 6.9 percent in August to 5,737 vehicles over the 5,368 sold last August. Year-to-date, sales of BMW Sports Activity Vehicles are up 6.7 percent, to 42,132 vehicles compared to the 39,474 sold in the first eight months of 2006.
Attached Imageshttp://www.xoutpost.com/attachments/x...g?d=1188937946

My recommendation .. buy another Lexus. Love my BMW warts and all...

I will agree that I do love my X5. Even though I have replaced a transmission, CV boot, CV joint/axle and had pixels replaced in the last year I am happy that I own an X5. I still think my X5 with 60,000 miles should not have these issues. I think it is rediculous for a transmission to go at under 100,000 miles. I am also thrilled that I started going to an indy European shop where they do not feed me lies like my dealership service department did.

Spend some time reading a Lexus/Toyota or Nissan/inifinti forum and you'll see a lot of the same complaints. Forums are NOT representative of the market at large. Anecdote makes not a statistic.. with that said, I've had 0 trouble outside a bad DVD drive on my 2 month old 3000 mile X5.. I've had more problems with my '05 Volvo XC90 by that point.

Also this is worth noting: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...ndableCar.aspx


While not as reliable as Lexus, it's still better than 80% of the rest..

Though it may be true that forums amplify problems, it is hardly a means by which someone can say that they understate the quality. BMW's performance in quality surveys/rankings is hardly commensurate with the premium price. They're not alone in that, however, it still doesn't make it right.

Someone made a reference about taking a vehicle in one day for a problem isn't a big deal. I can agree with that. Unfortunately, it generally isn't one day. There is the inevitable call that says the software must be updated, which then turns into a two day affair. Then, if that doesn't solve a problem, there's the part that must be ordered. "It should be here the day after tomorrow." Then, there's the great experience of getting the vehicle back, and then having the same problem two days later. Yep, time to go back.

While we're on the subject of repairs, the arrogance and lack of follow through from dealer service shops is terrible. It would be unfair to say they're all the same. What I can say, however, is that THREE of them in my locale have had the same performance. Dismal.

I like my E70, but I do wish it had far fewer problems. I've learned to let many problems batch up before taking it in. That way, they have plenty to do during the idle time that a part is "on its way." It is also a better bang for my "time buck." Instead of making repeated trips, I get it done in one. So, my steering wheel that doesn't always go down, the door panels that are making noise, the headliner that is making noise, the seat heaters/coolers that decide to turn off on their own after three minutes, etc. will all be fixed in the next visit to my all-so-professional dealership service area.

Joel

Your sentiments are echoed by many. BMW built the E70 with technology that would fit the space shuttle, and the dealer service personnel are nowhere near qualified to do more than change oil. At my dealer, there seems to be one master mechanic, the rest look like high school students. This is unacceptable when you consider its well over $100 an hour for service. You can get therapy for the same price, and after a dealer visit, I feel I need therapy.

What dealer do you use?

Dealer in Annapolis, MD

lol therapy eh?

I have no problems what so ever and I will choose my X5 over ANY Lexus any day.

I keep waiting for an influx of positive comments and praise, but have yet to be convinced that an '08 order should proceed....from my perspective. I guess we'll have to wait for the first few '08 posters (victims) to post on any changes in quality. It really irritates me to write this as I sincerely want to order this SAV....:banghead:

remember you are posting on a board designed to 'help' people with their X5's. So the items here should be a majority of questions or issues, not praise.

I don't mean any disrespect here, but give me a break. If that's the case, rename the forum to E70 Complaint and Help Board. Trust me, this has been helpfull to me, ie, it has given insight into multiple opinions of current owners who "helpfully" post issues with their cars. Some have even offered praise and I appreciate that as well. As a potential buyer, do you only want to hear one side of the story and go into a 70k decision blinded by your desire? I don't.

Just pointing out the facts to you.

Thats the nature of a forum...its a place to find help for issues. The vast majority of those searching for a forum are brought here because they are looking for a solution to a problem.

Its the same on every forum, Toyota, Lexus, Acura.

I have minor issues with my 2007 X5...it would not stop me from buying another one. The vehicle is AMAZING!!

I just picked up my E70 today (from service), been driving my wifes 2007 MDX for the past 10 days. As soon as I got in the X5, it was like I was in a completely different class of vehicle. The difference is literally night and day...you wont find me driving anything less, as the X5 is the finest SUV on the market...period!

Most people I know who have a life outside of a computer (myself included at most times) will not spend much time on message boards unless they have a question. MOST being the operative word.. sure you'll find 10-20 active users here that post a lot (myself included lately) that are more "Enthusiast" types, but the 20000 others who own a BMW X5 will not come here and post unless they're angry, frustrated, or confused..

This is how it is on my Macintosh computer forum (hardly known as a problem machine), and other forums I've been on lately.

I have posted more than just complaints. I posted photos and said how great the car was, before it broke. I've posted around 55 messages. I expect 3 or so of those have been about complaints. The car was great until it broke. Many people join these forums to talk about how good they are, discuss options before ordering, share the "waiting" with other people in the same situation. I completely disagree that the forum is for people wanting help about complaints or problems. It is for people to talk about their cars, get ideas, hints, suggestions, etc. If people only find this board because of problems - how many members are there? So you are saying the majority of them are here because they have problems with their cars?? If that's the case - count the number of members on the board - and BMW have a serious quality problem on their hands. On the other hand, only count those posts that complain of problems. In that case, oh hang on, BMW have a serious quality problem on their hands.

The fact that this board only represents the minority of X5 users globally (how many X5s have been sold, how many E70 owners have joined this board. 0.01%? 0.1%?). So considering SO many of us are reporting problems on this board - multiply that quantity by a thousand to get the true global picture - and whichever way you look at it, you can start to see that this vehicle has serious issues.

Doubt that is a scientific measurement of issues.

Amen Satan:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

I never claimed it to be. All I know is I paid well over £50,000 for a car that has been in the garage for 3 days (and counting, by the time they get round to working on it again Monday it'll be up to day 6) total since we bought it a couple of months ago.

First time, it took 5 days just to get an appointment because the service department was so busy fixing broken cars. Yesterday, car was towed at around 6pm. BMW got it first thing this morning. They phoned us at 3:30pm to say "we've just got round to looking at it. What seems to be the problem, we can't understand the report that BMW assist left us". They also said "about the tracker you've had fitted, when and where was it done?". "By you, prior to delivery", we said. Tomorrow, we are going to pick up a lovely bottom of the range 320 with cloth seats and manual gearbox. That's going to be great for the school run, not. They also said we could only keep the loan car for a maximum of 4 days, regardless of whether the X5 is fixed by then or not?? My wife took that call but if they ask for the loaner back before the X5 is fixed, I'll be taking it back at the same time as handing them a formal letter rejecting the X5 and asking for a refund.

I am a patient man - honestly - but this is strike 2. After this, if I get one more fault, the car is going back for good. The idea of the X5 was to have a very safe and reliable car which I know my wife and three kids will be safe in. Breaking down is just not acceptable. Breaking down and then not receiving first class service is inexcusable.

I am sure there are many happy X5 owners out there. I was one until a week ago. But now, the good feeling we got of stepping in to the safe reliable X5 has gone and won't return. We will always be doubting whether it's going to break down again, whether something else will go wrong. We planned to take the car to France soon. What happens if we are in the middle of France at night and it doesn't start?? You just don't want that cloud of doubt over your head in a vehicle of this class.

If the X5 was stolen today and we got our insurance paid out, I would not order another one, that is how I feel about it.

Yes this is gut feeling. No it's not scientific. But I couldn't care less - my car is broken - and I hope people reading this realise the X5 is not fit for purpose or ready for production yet. Wait 6 months, or buy something else.

You said it: your car is broken. The fact that your car (and a few other people's cars, which, judging by the flags, come from all around the world and not just the US) is broken doesn't mean all X5s will be. Your comments aren't going to stop me from getting an X5, or any other car, and they shouldn't. Sharing your experience and disappointment with us is a good thing, but trying to dissuade people from getting the car they want isn't. IMHO, telling us the issues you've had is sufficient, and we should be able to make a decision ourselves without you trying to influence us.

I have no problem with people getting the car they want. My problem is people ending up with the car they don't want, e.g., one that ends up in the garage because it's not fit for purpose and substandard and was released too early.

I'm not going to argue any more, like I say the car was superb until it went in to the garage. Many people here know how I feel. Many more I am sure will at some point over their ownership experience. I know that I am talking about the minority, but trust me, being in the minority SUCKS. Any of you that join us will understand, I won't be the last...!

Anyway, stop posting on here and go out and enjoy your lovely E70, whilst ours sits cold and lonely in the garage wondering what it's done wrong like a puppy that you've locked out for pooing on the carpet.

Man, don't take this so personally. After all the purpose of forums, in general, are the free flow of ideas so everyone, owners, non owners, and future owners alike can determine what they may face or enjoy during ownership. I don't own yet, but sure enjoy soaking up experiences from people who do, so when it is time to lay down the money, I'm confident in my decision. Take his experience for what it is...........his experience, then make your own mind up:thumbup:

He has every right to post the whole ugly truth. Everyone can decide on their own how to react. I, for one, want to know the good and the bad before I buy.

Glad some of you appreciate my posts for what they are. I will of course update on here the outcome - hopefully it will be a happy result, returning our lovely X5 to it's "pre fault" condition. Obviously the bitterness and slight feeling of doubt on future reliability will never fully go away, and I sincerely hope we don't hit "strike 3" which will force us to return it. I can't think what I could buy that would be a match for the class, space, and refinement. But reliability - I just didn't even consider that when buying the car, I just assumed it would be there.

keep in mind... these types of issues are more common than most believe... it is software that manages most of the X5's functions...

these software versions are standard across these models... if one version affects the starter, NAV, camera, etc, there's a great chance it will affect all similarly equipped models... it is merely a question of when...not if...

remember, this is software written by programmers/engineers to provide a certain function (they control NAV, backup camera, keyless entry, suspension, active steering, blah blah blah)

just like writing a program to perform basic add and subtract functions...

if the program takes each "4" and calculates it like if it were a "3" then every calculation involving 4s will be inaccurate...but everything else will be fine...

once a software program has been completed it is then tested to some degree (due to stiff competition and marketing bragging rights) and then uploaded into each vehicle during production.

if you're x5 stalls as a result of some error in the code, quess what, all similarly equipped vehicles are at similar risks..

engineers do not write individual codes for each color/option of vehicle they produce..... it is not practical and there aren't enough engineers in the world to do this!

the fix is usually done by modifying the current production code in order to address a specific issue and then release that as the new firmware version...

as each problem is reported back to BMW these enginers continue to review, modify, and re-introduce new versions. (hence why we have reached ver 29.x from like 20.x when it first came out)

another problem is the fact that these updates take hours to perform and not all vehicles in service will get them....(it may depend on the type of problem reported, the amount of vehicles in service, or the level of customer service you'll be receiving)

now if it's a mechanical issue (like something loose or some physical design flaw that can be fixed with a quick change) that's a different story..

the use of sophisticated software/technology to perform multiple functions in these vehicles is the main problem... but it is the direction this world is going into and unfortunately for all it will continue to become common practice and part of our everyday life...

by the way I'm also a software engineer and I perform similar functions for a living!

I'm also a SE and agree for the most part. I however don't see these issues as great for the amount of code written to support these vehicles.

I hear you man... but when your vehicle stalls and they can't seem to replicate the problem to figure it out, it's a major problem!!!

a mechanical issue is a mechanical issue and usually easier to detect.

software issues come and go like the wind..very difficult to detect and thus very difficult to resolve...this process consumes a lot of time and resources.. if you're lucky they figure it out and fix it...if you're not, they tell you to take her home and contact them if and when it happens again...

the point is... we are stuck with this technology...all vehicles will have similar setups... look around, everyone is doing NAV, backup camera, comfort/keyless start/entry, adaptive suspension, bluetooth, rear DVD, and everything in between...

I've been monitoring other forums and don't see similar problems... why?

they do have some but more from an inconvenience perspective...(ie, bluetooth not working properly, backup camera too dark) but their cars run and remain reliable transportation vehicles...

they probably spend more time on Quality Assurance... they're late in introducing the technology but only because they've been doing their homework!!

BMW really needs to monitor these forums and get more proactive instead of looking to be the first in introducing new "ideas."

final thought... my neighbor and close friend purchased a BMW touring bike w/NAV, bluetooth, and all kinds of bells and whistles... bike looks great and rides great...

he is currently in a legal battle with them after having his bike towed a number of times due to systems issues...

he's now has to think twice before going to far from home...

but he loves his bimmer!! all $25k worth of it!!

is BMW listening????

I feel Satan1974s frustration and anger, mine is going in now for the 6th time for the oil leak they cannot sort out. Fortunatly they are giving me a replacement in Jan and I will basically just pay for usage from now till then. No one wants to feel like they are going to experience a breakdown. Bmw must get there act together. I must be honest it is so great to drive that I still want it replaced rather than go for something else. The range rover sport was on my mind but probably it would also have issues.

*DISCLAIMER - This posting is negative and is the opinion of myself only. It does not reflect the opinions of anybody else on this board or the board itself. It should not influence you if you are thinking about buying an X5*

Ok, so this morning we went to the dealer to pick up our loaner. I went to the service desk first and asked if there was any update "No, not yet." I was told. "He (the engineer) only got the car at 4pm yesterday so hasn't had a chance to do anything yet. He'll have a look at it when he comes back on Monday, we only really do service things on a Saturday". So, the car broke down at 3:15pm on Thursday. They got the car at 9am on Friday. They didn't do _anything_ with this broken down £50k+ car until late on in the day, and by the sounds of it, I don't think they did anything at all. They aren't looking at it today because they have paying customers to worry about. They are closed tomorrow. On Monday, hopefully, they'll start seeing what the problem is. In the meantime, we have a bottom of the range 320d manual with absolutely nothing in it, not even satnav, so it's going to be a right pain using this on a regular basis.

Most worryingly though - and this is the bit I am putting down in writing in a strong letter to BMW. When we went to pick up the loaner car, the lady who served us had nothing but bad things to say about the new X5. She stated, in her words, "We've had loads of these (the new X5) in. They have a habit of stalling at traffic lights and not starting again. The sales people forget to tell people that little detail when they are selling them." So it's _not_ just me. It _is_ a widespread problem. There _is_ a serious fault with the new X5.

As I said at the beginning, don't let me influence you in deciding whether to buy one or not. I just wish I hadn't, and certainly wouldn't buy another. But that's just my opinion.

This is the first time in almost a year hearing about "loads of these in". Perhaps it was a bad batch at the time that came to your area (and a few others)? I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a widespread problem until we see more people chiming in about the same thing.

I do read a lot about software updates fixing this and that... that worries me a bit too as something so easily applied/changed can cause someone to have a very bad day.

Don't worry Satan, there is nothing you can do or say that can prevent us from buying a BMW X5. The way I see it, this machine is man made and you may have a lemon. I appreciate your input but I think you should also direct your complaint to BMWNA in order to get a faster solution to your problems.

Thanks ... even though I'm in the UK? :)

Satan, did I see you mentioned a battery charging problem indicated on the iDrive? I have this very same problem on an E90 currently......

Yes, the battery charge problem came on a week ago last Thursday (6th September). It started off saying the battery was low, later in this day this changed to "critical". Phoned BMW and they said "we can fit you in on Tuesday" (!). By the time Tuesday came, the error had gone, they had the car all day and reported "no fault found" so just handed it back without doing anything. Two days later it broke down, and the car has been at the dealer ever since. So much for "no fault found".

<<She stated, in her words, "We've had loads of these (the new X5) in. They have a habit of stalling at traffic lights and not starting again. The sales people forget to tell people that little detail when they are selling them." So it's _not_ just me. It _is_ a widespread problem. There _is_ a serious fault with the new X5.>>

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: