+3

But BMW's service/reimbursement policy is not in alignment with the technical facts: DEF is not a "condition based service" but is a TIME based interval- almost purely. Everything you read about DEF is that it needs to be changed annually. Craig's service is EXACTLY the service that needs a DEF flush and fill.

I agree, except... the nominal 12 month stability of DEF at 77 degrees seems to be very conservative, and I haven't seen anywhere that BMW says DEF should be flushed and filled on a time basis. It seems BMW might not be on board with the stability of DEF.

What would be interesting is to see what the EPA thinks of BMW's service recommendations if it is not consistent with DEF stability, i.e., does this mean that the engine will not be meeting EPA specifications if the DEF get's old?

There seems to be a bit of conflicting info on stability. Dodge says this about their truck diesels:

"Q. What is the shelf life of DEF?
A. The shelf life of DEF is a function of ambient storage temperature. DEF will degrade over
time depending on temperature and exposure to sun light. Expectations for shelf life as defined
by ISO Spec 22241-3 are the minimum expectations for shelf life when stored at constant
temperatures. If stored between 10 and 90 deg F, shelf life will easily be one year. If the
maximum temperature does not exceed approximately 75 deg F for an extended period of time,
the shelf life will be two years.
Q. What impact will exposure to high temperatures for an extended period of time have
on DEF?
A. While DEF exposure to constant, high storage temperature may have some impact on shelf
life, this should not concern operators. Extensive testing in very hot climates has been
conducted confirming that DEF stored at a constant temperature of 95 deg F had a shelf life of
over 6 months."

I've seen a Cummins document that says it should be 12-18 months when stored in the "typical conditions that windshield washer fluid is stored."

Since the SCR system has an NOx sensor, I wonder if the system compensates for older fluid by simply injecting more? I read something that implied that somewhere, but I can't remember the source.

It is rather disgusting that BMW has launched Diesel SCR systems in the U.S. and now, more than a year after introduction, they do not seem to have any clear guidelines on DEF and when it should be replaced.

I wonder if the DEF sold by BMW has an expiration date on the bottle?

One last comment... I have worked in the pharmaceutical industry for quite a few years and obviously stability is a big issue there. In the case of pharmaceuticals, the FDA allows you to use "accelerated stability testing" to establish up to 12 months stability, i.e., you store the packaged product at higher than normal temperatures and humidity for 90 days, and then use formulas to extrapolate what will happen at lower temperatures and humidity over a longer period of time, e.g., you can test for 90 days and get a 12 month stability rating. For longer than that, you need "real time" data, i.e., if you want three years expiry, you must store it for three years and test it. So you need more than three years time to obtain a three year expiry.

I wonder if something similar is going on with DEF, i.e., as time passes more real time data will be available and we will find-out that the stability of DEF is much better than 12 months.

But is is absolutely disgraceful that BMW NA launched the Diesel without clearly defined DEF parameters and written guidelines.


P.S One thought that just occurred to me... maybe BMW's insistence on classifying DEF as a Consumable, rather than a Maintenance item, has something to do with the law on emissions systems? If DEF is classed as a "Maintenance" item, does the emissions law say they are on the hook to provide DEF for eight years or 80,000 miles? Maybe that's once of their concerns about what they put in writing.

That goodness we don't have it here yet (well not for our X5s any way)

:iagree:

It appears that there is quite a bit of CYA going on by BMW and its dealers until they have real data on which to base their DEF maintenance policies. This leaves 35d and 335d owners holding BMW's DEF bag.:(

Funf Dreisig

Update:

Problem found. The Diesel does not have a DME, but it has something identical called a DMT (someone correct me if the tech was wrong in her abbreviation).

It's the 2010 X5 35d's main onboard computer and provides a similar function to the DME on gasoline powered vehicles. It registered a major fault (finally), severe enough that they won't give me back the vehicle, as they claimed it was unsafe to drive (they're words).

Now for the lovely and somewhat strange news. The part must be specifically "coded" at BMW NA's facilities in South Carolina for each specific X5 35d. It can't simply be shipped out, as they must be flashed to each individual vehicle. That part strikes me as odd.

They said 7 to 10 business days at a minimum, for a car that is 2.5 months old. She said she requested a "rush" order. I doubt such a "rush" service exists, but she seemed genuine. I think they're a bit embarrassed they didn't catch it the first time, so there was a lot of tip toeing going on.

Given the experience many of you have had receiving parts for your late model X5s, I'm wondering how realistic the 7 to 10 day period will be.

I'm glad they found the issue, but having the car out of service for what will likely amount to 2-weeks, at a minimum is not something I'm thrilled with.

I'll update as things progress and they'll give me the actual fault codes when I pick the car up. She offered to run out into the rain and grab them, but it's obviously unimportant at this period of time.

So, does anyone know if the DME or DMT must be coded at BMW's building facility or is that information incorrect? If I recall, Montoya had an identical issue and his DME was replaced within 24-hours.

Fingers crossed this won't turn into a 30-day, without my vehicle, ordeal, but when she said 7 to 10 business days there was not a ton of confidence in her voice. Hmmm....

Specific coding may be related to this:

CAS 3 is the Car Access System. Didn't see anything about a DMT. It's amazing what you find on the Internet :)

Hope this helps.

You were probably talking to a SA, and not a tech. Techs rarely speak to customers, and almost never over the phone. It is an extraordinary situation when the wrench will come and chat.

SAs generally are technically incompetent. Their skill lies in, well, lying. Or making customers hear what they want.

In this case they are likely terrified of you, and hence the dancing around.... I have NEVER heard of a BMW DME that cannot be programmed by a dealer. It is almost unfathomable that it must be programmed in SC.

I would, however, not be surprised if they want to get at some of the hidden data and that is why they want it- and that is why it must go to SC. I've commonly seen BMW 'recall' DMEs for 'forensic' analysis after catastrophic failures. There is data there that they want to see.

I'd say it is 50% she actually believes it needs to be programmed and 50% she is telling you a story. And I dont think it needs to go to SC for programming... New DME, reload all the software, should be good to go.

All IMHO

A

PS Santo- unrelated to his issue I think- just means the DME and CAS3 are replaced as a unit, but can be locally programmed.

a chick tech? 1 in 100?

My 2.5 month old 35d was so riddled with problems ..
 

that the dealer has finally agreed to replace it was latest innovation model at no cost ...

I'm going to suggest a priest spray it with holy water when I return the faulty one to dealership

RIP - gone too soon :(

"So riddled"??
 

So three issues is "So Riddled"?

Any related to the DME?

Anyway, good news for you they are taking it back- as I recall you were upset from the beginning after finding out there was a new diesel in the works anyway... you get the new model this way. (What is a 'latest innovation model' anyway?)