3 Series Purchase help

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

I believe people who vote with their wallets are often swayed by public opinion, and TV commercials. Accurate knowledge about other options especially in the diesel area are often clouded by something as simple as "where would I buy fuel" and they listen to nothing more than the negative comments of others rather than informing themselves with the facts from people who know the product.

It's kinda like those Republicans you spoke of. Their opinions on Obama (like a choice in a different driving machine) would be far different if it wouldn't cost them the a future election. Some people as usual without accurate knowledge, just have to follow the Jones.

So the 99% of BMW car purchasers in the US in 2009 that picked a gasoline engine model, compared to the 1% that picked a diesel model, were just ill-informed? Looks like BMW has some education to do then.

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by JCL

So the 99% of BMW car purchasers in the US in 2009 that picked a gasoline engine model, compared to the 1% that picked a diesel model, were just ill-informed? Looks like BMW has some education to do then.

I wouldn't say 99% but you gotta admit a large percentage of people
tend to just follow everyone else when it comes to most anything.

Vehicles are no exception. The American consumer is a prime example of a culture bent on consuming impractical, wasteful, consumer products.
They follow the line of least resistance believing whatever they are told. Here's a good example of how people are being fed mis-information regarding todays diesel.

Why Do People Choose Not to Drive Diesel Engine Cars By RJ Performance

[FSETH]

There are two problems with the 335d;

1) It is expensive. To the tune of nearly double a pre-owned e90 328i. There were 80 used 335d's available in the US on Autotrader right now up to year 2010. The cheapest being $35,000+. You can get a couple year old 328i for about $20k +/-. You know how expensive gas would have to be to make up that difference?

2) No manual transmission available. The 3 series to me is an enthusiast type of car. I want it to feel sporty and I want it with a manual transmission.

Although the torque would be great in the 335d, it's engine will not be the same silky smooth, high revver that the gasoline versions are. It would dissapoint in that aspect for me personally. A diesel in an SUV, like the X5, is a different story, because in an SUV, that torque is more important. Not only to get the extra mass of an SUV rolling, but for towing as well. I would be 100 times more likely to buy a diesel X5, than a diesel 3-series, or any car for that matter.

I agree with JCL, BMW missed the mark by not offering the smaller engine diesels over here. I think BMW could have sold the 320d/325d much better than the 335d.

[GoVols!]

Originally Posted by FSETH

There are two problems with the 335d;

1) It is expensive. To the tune of nearly double a pre-owned e90 328i. There were 80 used 335d's available in the US on Autotrader right now up to year 2010. The cheapest being $35,000+. You can get a couple year old 328i for about $20k +/-. You know how expensive gas would have to be to make up that difference?

2) No manual transmission available. The 3 series to me is an enthusiast type of car. I want it to feel sporty and I want it with a manual transmission.

Although the torque would be great in the 335d, it's engine will not be the same silky smooth, high revver that the gasoline versions are. It would dissapoint in that aspect for me personally. A diesel in an SUV, like the X5, is a different story, because in an SUV, that torque is more important. Not only to get the extra mass of an SUV rolling, but for towing as well. I would be 100 times more likely to buy a diesel X5, than a diesel 3-series, or any car for that matter.

I agree with JCL, BMW missed the mark by not offering the smaller engine diesels over here. I think BMW could have sold the 320d/325d much better than the 335d.

I agree with your second point. If you have to have a stick, that obviously rules out the d. If you frequently red-line your car and flog it around, you will be more satisfied with the smooth gassers. If you're interested in mileage and want power without the high-revs and wear & tear, the d is the way to go.

On your first point though, the 335 models should not be compared to 328 in a cost comparison. They are completely different vehicles. Saying the d costs more than the 328 is a "well duh" moment. That's like saying the X5M costs more than a used 3.0.

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by GoVols!

On your first point though, the 335 models should not be compared to 328 in a cost comparison. They are completely different vehicles. Saying the d costs more than the 328 is a "well duh" moment. That's like saying the X5M costs more than a used 3.0.

Of course, but the OP did ask about a manual 325i before you brought up the 335d. Like I said, cheapest used 335d on Autotrader is $35,000+. The average price for a 325i (manual) is about $18,000-$19,000. You have to consider the higher cost of the 335d if the 325i is enough car for his commute. Especially if the OP can buy two manual 325i's for the same price as the cheapest 335d.

[GoVols!]

Originally Posted by FSETH

Of course, but the OP did ask about a manual 325i before you brought up the 335d. Like I said, cheapest used 335d on Autotrader is $35,000+. The average price for a 325i (manual) is about $18,000-$19,000. You have to consider the higher cost of the 335d if the 325i is enough car for his commute. Especially if the OP can buy two manual 325i's for the same price as the cheapest 335d.

I don't disagree with you if he is OK with the lack of power in a 325. I read him bringing a manual into the equation as a way to get better mileage, not a requirement for performance. His son was the one who insisted on a stick. His original post asked about performance and fuel effeciency, of which the d is the perfect blend. I would not consider a 325 to be a "performance" based 3 series, but that's just my opinion. Obviously if a 325 would satisfy his needs/wants the dollars for the d would not be justified.

[GoVols!]

I wasnt aware a 325 got 40mpg on the highway. I also wasnt aware that the 328 matched the 335i 0-60. The d does both(OK, .1 sec slower than the 335i).

And I don't care if it's a Chevy, a BMW, or a Ferrari, running an engine balls out at high RPM's constantly is going to wear it out faster than running it slower. That is just common sense. Why do you think rental cars run like hell after 50,000 miles? I'd like to know the service history of dealer loaners since they more than likely get driven harder than people's personal vehicles. I would be willing bet a bunch of money that the vast majority of 300,000 mile X5's were not redlined very often. Of course if you lease, it doesnt matter and becomes someone else's problem...... :-)

Maybe it's just my driving style, but I feel the d fits me better than the i. I like having tons of power available at low rpm's so I dont HAVE to rev it all the way up. In real world day-to-day driving how often do you really need or want to run 8000 rpm?

[JCL]

Originally Posted by GoVols!

I wasnt aware a 325 got 40mpg on the highway. I also wasnt aware that the 328 matched the 335i 0-60. The d does both(OK, .1 sec slower than the 335i).

And I don't care if it's a Chevy, a BMW, or a Ferrari, running an engine balls out at high RPM's constantly is going to wear it out faster than running it slower. That is just common sense. Why do you think rental cars run like hell after 50,000 miles? I'd like to know the service history of dealer loaners since they more than likely get driven harder than people's personal vehicles. I would be willing bet a bunch of money that the vast majority of 300,000 mile X5's were not redlined very often. Of course if you lease, it doesnt matter and becomes someone else's problem...... :-)

Maybe it's just my driving style, but I feel the d fits me better than the i. I like having tons of power available at low rpm's so I dont HAVE to rev it all the way up. In real world day-to-day driving how often do you really need or want to run 8000 rpm?

FSETH's graph certainly shows some good numbers for the comparison. I tend not to use US government figures, because they aren't close to reality, and there are so many correction factors that I think the tests are not reproducable. I use either Transport Canada, or the UK government figures. Going with the UK figures, because they are listed conveniently on www.bmw.co.uk, the 335d has a 0-62 mph time of 6.0. The 335i is at 5.6, the 325 is at 6.7, and the 330 (when it was listed) was down the middle of those, same as the 328, very close to the 335d. Yes, it is only one aspect of performance. The mileage of the 335d on the combined cycle is listed as 42.2 mpg (remember that is Imperial gallons). The 335i is at 34 mpg, the 325 is at 39 mpg, and the 323 (when it was listed) was at 42. The 320i is listed at 44. My analogy therefore wasn't correct. It should have been the mileage of the 323, the acceleration of the 328/330, and the cost of the 335i. I will further grant you that in the US, you got rebates so that the 35d didn't cost that much. The rest of us don't get those rebates.

I don't have a concern over running my BMW gasoline engines to redline most times I drive them, after they are properly warmed up. It has not resulted in increased oil consumption or engine wear. If you read posts by wallyx5, he discusses his 300,000 mile 3.0 X5 that he regularly runs at high speeds. These engines do much better with that use than they do on short trips and at idle.

If your 35d works for you, that is fantastic. They are great engines. My only comment would be that if you like to take advantage of the low speed torque, and keep engine rpms down, and always have throttle response available, then that is not so much a diesel characteristic as it is a turbocharged engine characteristic. Your diesel just happens to be a turbocharged design. My 535i has the same characteristics, but with the added bonus that I can rev it if I want to. It has a six speed manual, and I can pretty much shift it 1-3-5 or 2-4-6, it has far more gears than it needs in daily driving, given the available torque just off idle.

[GoVols!]

Originally Posted by JCL

FSETH's graph certainly shows some good numbers for the comparison. I tend not to use US government figures, because they aren't close to reality, and there are so many correction factors that I think the tests are not reproducable. I use either Transport Canada, or the UK government figures. Going with the UK figures, because they are listed conveniently on www.bmw.co.uk, the 335d has a 0-62 mph time of 6.0. The 335i is at 5.6, the 325 is at 6.7, and the 330 (when it was listed) was down the middle of those, same as the 328, very close to the 335d. Yes, it is only one aspect of performance. The mileage of the 335d on the combined cycle is listed as 42.2 mpg (remember that is Imperial gallons). The 335i is at 34 mpg, the 325 is at 39 mpg, and the 323 (when it was listed) was at 42. The 320i is listed at 44. My analogy therefore wasn't correct. It should have been the mileage of the 323, the acceleration of the 328/330, and the cost of the 335i. I will further grant you that in the US, you got rebates so that the 35d didn't cost that much. The rest of us don't get those rebates.

I don't have a concern over running my BMW gasoline engines to redline most times I drive them, after they are properly warmed up. It has not resulted in increased oil consumption or engine wear. If you read posts by wallyx5, he discusses his 300,000 mile 3.0 X5 that he regularly runs at high speeds. These engines do much better with that use than they do on short trips and at idle.

If your 35d works for you, that is fantastic. They are great engines. My only comment would be that if you like to take advantage of the low speed torque, and keep engine rpms down, and always have throttle response available, then that is not so much a diesel characteristic as it is a turbocharged engine characteristic. Your diesel just happens to be a turbocharged design. My 535i has the same characteristics, but with the added bonus that I can rev it if I want to. It has a six speed manual, and I can pretty much shift it 1-3-5 or 2-4-6, it has far more gears than it needs in daily driving, given the available torque just off idle.

I will grant you that when I bought the X, the rebates and tax incentives brought the true price down to ~1,000 less than the 3.0 models. That decision was a no-brainer. I would think a little harder about that purchase now with the 35i models closing the performance gap. I'm not so much a diesel fan as I am a fan of getting the most power for the buck.

[FSETH]

I literally floor my e36 325i multiple times per day and I now have over 320,000 miles on it. As long as you have the right amount of the correct oil in the engine, I really don't think high rpm's have that much affect on a BMW 6 cylinder engine. Now, some rental-car special, i.e. Malibu, Fusion, Altima, etc may not handle it as well.