1st service for X5M

[StumpyPete]

Oil changes are not included in uk and the service interval is still 15k so to say it is because BMW don't want to pay is irrelevant. The 15k interval is based on BMW research, if leaving it to 15k had any detrimental effect it would push up warranty costs and therefore cost to BMW - it isn't in their interest to up the interval without understanding the potential cost.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by StumpyPete

Oil changes are not included in uk and the service interval is still 15k so to say it is because BMW don't want to pay is irrelevant. The 15k interval is based on BMW research, if leaving it to 15k had any detrimental effect it would push up warranty costs and therefore cost to BMW - it isn't in their interest to up the interval without understanding the potential cost.

In North America, BMW also hold almost all the lease residual values, another risk for higher mileage vehicles.

But be careful, you are ruining the conspiracy theory

[FSETH]

Yes, but BMW doesn't set these intervals based solely on what is best for the longevity of the car. It is a combination things. Plus, what does a factory warranty cover? 50-100K? If I paid as much as an X5/6 M costs and I planned on owning the car for an extended period of time (especially ouside of warranty coverage), it would make me feel much better to have a break in oil service performed. Once again, the head technical writer for the BMWCCA says he has personally seen driveline oils full of metal at as low as 1,200 miles in modern BMW's.

[MRV99]

I would not trust the bmw oil intervals. Before BMW paid for the maintenance, you have a much more strict fluid changes. Almost every expert will say that the intervals are much too long. Personally I get my 545 changed every 7K so I was paying for every other one. I just ordered a X5-50 and i am going to get the oil changed at 1k and then at 7k and then the 15k which bmw will pick up. You can get your oil changed when every you want. Just tell your SA that you want to pay for an oil change and to not reset the counter. That simple. I know oils are much better now then the past but you have to realize your oil is also running through the turbos and those get HOT. You paid almost 100k for your car so spending a $1000 on extra fluid changes is not going to hurt your wallet and it will give you a piece of mind. I am shocked that BMW did away with the 1k fluid change on //M cars

[JCL]

Originally Posted by MRV99

I would not trust the BMW oil intervals. Before BMW paid for the maintenance, you have a much more strict fluid changes.

That is an urban myth IMO. Longer maintenance intervals started in 1992 for BMW. They went to 15,000 miles in 1998. (so they have 13 years of experience at this interval). The US got prepaid maintenance different years for different models, reaching 4 years (to match the warranty) in 2003, eleven years after the intervals were increased. To this day, most countries don't have maintenance included, and yet they have the same recommended service intervals. See StumpyPete's post #15, above.

No problem if you want to change the oil more frequently on your own dime, but don't suggest it is a conspiracy, not when these intervals have been so successful.

Side note: There are rumours about new 60,000 km oil change intervals, and there are pictures floating around of new composite oil pans with built-in life-time filters. It is going to be interesting to see the reaction when manufacturers start to adopt that technology.

[MRV99]

Urban Myth? I never said there was a conspiracy but there are a number of things which point to the longer intervals on all fluids and the issues which arise due to the extended intervals.

The governments are pushing for less waste out of Auto companies so the pressure the amount petro's out of cars are influencing manufactures to extend the fluid changes. So like most manufactures, BMW is conforming.

I will ask you this. What is BMW's definition of "Lifetime Fluid"? It is usually till a part fails or 100,001 miles. Why would BMW put a fail or 100,001 mileage on the fluid....oh wait that is the longest warranty period that you can get from the BMW. Ask a dealer to change your trans fluid in your 535 at 30k miles. They will tell you don't do it. Why... If they did then you would have to pay for a new trans pan because they are made of plastic and once removed it will never fit properly again and the filter is built into the pan. Hey more money for the dealer and you know dealers don't like making money. Why would they tell you No? Even if they do change the fluid, why do some dealers ask for you to sign a waver releasing them from liability if you have a transmission issue? Tell me why new fluid and filter would not be better for a transmission than an old filter and fluid? What is more profitable for the company, new transmission or a fluid change?

3) I know a former president of a very large manufacturing company which produced appliances. This company was a house hold name and still is but is no longer a stand alone company because it was purchased by a bigger company. We were playing golf one time and he made a candid comment which I am sure you can understand.... "Why build something which will last 20 years or more when you can build something which will last 10 and the consumer will pay the same price and would have to buy twice as many." As you know there are stock holders behind all decision. If a persons a car that could last 150k-200k, then maybe they will not want to get a new one. If the car only last 100k then you will purchase more cars increasing the profit of that company. I know this sounds like a conspiracy but can you explain why this is a fact? Globalization of everything has cheapen the quality of the products and they do not last. BMW's used to be bullet prof. I own two BMW's currently and believe me, I know almost every employee at the dealership. Not because I love to meet people but because I have been there a hell of a lot of times because of part failure.

4) I am no expert but I have build a few cars(motors, trans, diffs) and I can only speak from experience. Yes they were not German cars but the internal combustion engine has worked off the same principals since its inception. The parts can be build with much greater tolerances now then in the past but any moving part will experience some type of wear. So in a transmission, gears touch each other. If they are not 100% perfectly matched there will be wear between the two surfaces which meet. There will be with 99.9% certainty wear patterns where the gears touch, which happens in every transmission. What happens to the metal. Filters only work so well and when you never change them or extend the intervals between changes, they become less effective. All Fluids break down through heat cycles and contaminates(moisture, dirt and standard fluid breakdown). The way the std person in the urban environment drives their car causes the fluids to accumulate moisture and that alone effects the fluid. Most drives do not even run these cars at high RPM's which these are designed for. Ask a BMW expert and they will tell you the same. The oiling systems on these cars need high RPM to "clean them out". Can you explain the high amount of sludge which is common on the std BMW? Is this from longer oil changes or...... How does this sludge form and why has it become more a common occurrence in modern BMW's


I could go on longer but I may sound like a bonafied conspiracy theorist.

By the way, have you watched your oil temp in your 535 when you drive it hard... Do you know how hot a turbo gets and they share the same oil. 250 degree temps are not good for the oil.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by MRV99

Urban Myth? I never said there was a conspiracy but there are a number of things which point to the longer intervals on all fluids and the issues which arise due to the extended intervals....

I will ask you this. What is BMW's definition of "Lifetime Fluid"? It is usually till a part fails or 100,001 miles. ..... Tell me why new fluid and filter would not be better for a transmission than an old filter and fluid?....

3)Why build something which will last 20 years or more when you can build something which will last 10 and the consumer will pay the same price and would have to buy twice as many." ....

4) All Fluids break down through heat cycles and contaminates (moisture, dirt and standard fluid breakdown). The way the std person in the urban environment drives their car causes the fluids to accumulate moisture and that alone effects the fluid. Most drives do not even run these cars at high RPM's which these are designed for. Ask a BMW expert and they will tell you the same. The oiling systems on these cars need high RPM to "clean them out". Can you explain the high amount of sludge which is common on the std BMW? Is this from longer oil changes or...... How does this sludge form and why has it become more a common occurrence in modern BMW's

....

By the way, have you watched your oil temp in your 535 when you drive it hard... Do you know how hot a turbo gets and they share the same oil. 250 degree temps are not good for the oil.

Sorry, missed your response and only saw it today.

A lifetime fluid is one that lasts for the lifetime of the component involved AND one which when it is changed, doesn't statistically impact the length of that lifetime. Examples on your vehicle would be shock/strut fluid, damper fluid, viscous coupling fluid, and transmission fluid. Obviously the fluid degrades over time, but changing it hasn't been shown to be cost effective, or a contributor to longer component life.

New fluid would be good for a transmission if you could clean out all the old fluid and contaminants when you changed it (which would require a tear-down, which isn't at all practical) and if you reset the transmission controller so the computer knew that the fluid had been changed, since it adapts to fluid viscosity changes over time by measuring clutch engagement cycle times. However, new fluid wouldn't necessarily extend the life of your transmission. Many transmission failures have been noted to be caused by sensors, control modules, actuators breaking, and so on, failures which are not contributed to by clean or dirty fluid. So, you could put clean fluid in, but if you did you would only expect to extend the life in respect of failures caused by burnt or worn out fluid.

I suppose an automaker could build a 20 year vehicle. The problem is, none of us apparently want to keep a vehicle for 20 years. Few seem to keep it until it is paid off. And if we keep buying vehicles with more electronics on board, the obsolence cycle will shorten, not lengthen.

I agree that all oils break down, and I read your point 4 as applying more to engine oil. If an owner never uses the upper rpm bands, never gets the engine good and hot, never has a long trip, then that is much harder on the fluids than extending the life of the oil when the vehicle is being used as intended by the designers.

I don't think BMW engines have sludge problems, but I personally define sludge as a byproduct of combustion, suspended in the oil. I don't think of the condensate that forms under the oil filler cap as sludge, but rather as condensate. It comes from short trips, not warming the engine fully, condensation, etc. I don't think it is caused by following the recommended oil change intervals, but I would agree that a series of hot oil changes in quick succession will clean it out. The oil isn't the problem, though, it is the operating cycle.

I don't watch my 535 oil temperature. I do watch oil consumption, and this engine uses far less than my 3.0 in my X5. I get it good and hot, using 6000 rpm once the engine is warm (but not 7000), and so I expect to have fewer issues with condensate. I do make sure that I don't exceed the manufacturer's recommendations for service intervals. I even go about 10% more frequently, to increase the safety factor.

Lots of previous threads on this topic, but always interested to discuss it.

[ring007]

As with all my cars, I'm going in at 1,200 and every 5,000 after that. Cheap insurance, and I'm convinced all my cars are faster after an oil change (same is true after I wash them)

[AZX54.4]

I personally no longer go the 15,000 mile distance in between oil changes. It is possible that the oil is good for 15,000 miles. However, when I changed my oil at 13,000 miles the oil filter was in terrible condition. The oil may have been fine but I think the filter was all but useless. Because of this, I now change my oil more frequently. I usually change it around 7,000 miles. Anyways, it is an easy job, not expensive and very gratifying!!! So, personally I enjoy changing my oil more frequently