oil viscosity??

[cary]

Originally Posted by vinuneuro

0W-30 is just more efficient. In wear tests, Amsoil 0W-30 actually outperforms M1 5W-30, so it's best of both worlds . I wonder if the stuff will actually hold up 35k miles that Amsoil rates it at (there are 2-3 filter changes in there).

Note that that 35k is subject to qualifications:

1) That you peform regular oil analysis to make sure the oil isn't breaking down,
2) Vehicle is not operated under severe circumstances (or else drop to 15k), and
3) the oil is not used more than 1 year.

Amsoil makes a good oil, but it is no better than Mobil 1. In fact there was a test run (called the space bears study on bobistheoilguy) where the guy ran the oils for about 18k miles with analysis every 1k miles. Guess what, as many have found, Amsoil thickend out of grade over time while the Mobil 1 continued to stay in grade, offer lower wear numbers, and maintain its TBN. This while being cheaper. It is hard to beat Mobil 1's R&D.

[vinuneuro]

Originally Posted by cary

I'm going to chime in here as a long time oil enthusiest that has spent way to much time on the subject. If you really want to get into it, go spend some time on bobistheoilguy.com and you will get a whole plethera of knowledge.

What to look for in a BMW oil:

1) BMW has its own oil specs. They are BMW Long Life (LL). There have been three standards LL-98, LL-01, and LL-04. BMW LL-98 allows for Group III hydrocracked oils, but LL-01 is stricter and only allows for Group IV or Group V based oils. LL-04 is very new, designed for primarly diesels in Europe and no oils sold in the US actually are LL-04 approved (Amsoil doesn't count as they claim their oil meets the standard, but it isn't approved).

2) The proper oil for all climates is an oil that meets BMW LL-01 or better. There are only a couple of oils that actually meet this spec widely available in the US. Mobil 1 0w-40 and Valvoline 5w-40 Syntec.

3) All BMW Long Life oils are ACEA A3 oils. An ACEA A3 oil means that it has a high temp high shear (HTHS @ 150c) of more than 3.5. Not that A3 is mutually exclusive of ACEA A1 & A5. A1 & A5 oils have an HTHS of less than 3.5. A5 is simply a newer and stricter standard of A1, so if an oil is A5 rated than it is also A1 rated. NOTE NOT ALL A3 OILS ARE BMW LL OILS, ONLY THOSE SPECIFICALLY LABLED AS SUCH.

4) Note that Mobil 1 30 weight oils are not A3 or LL approved. So the next question that will be asked is why does BMW USA recommend them? It is because they never have updated their recomendation from the 90's when Mobil 1 was available in the US in either 30 or 50 weight. There was no 0w-40 then. THE ONLY MOBIL 1 OIL THAT IS BMW LL APPROVED IS THE 0W-40.

5) Don't get to hung up on weight. 30 weight oil runs from about 10-12.5 cst at 100c. Mobil 1 30 weights are forumlated on the light end of the 30 weight scale at about 10.5 cst, so are nearly 20 weight. By contrast BMW's relabled Castrol 30 weight is about 12.2 cst, which is nearly a 40 weight. As a rule of thumb, Mobil formulates on the light end of any grade, Amsoil on the heavy end.

6) Redline is a great race oil. For street use it does not work well for extended intervals. The problem is that their chemestry is very old and the oil tends to oxidate quickly and generate higher wear number than Mobil 1 or Amsoil when used in street vehicles.

7) The best widely available oils for your BMW. 1) Mobil 1 0w-40, 2) BMW 5w30 synth. Why the Group III BMW oil that is only LL-98 approved. It is because the 15k interval used by BMW is to far for even Mobil 1 oils under most conditions, so either oil should be changed at 10k or less intervals. As it is easiest to just change once between the indicator lights (about 7.5k miles) the advantage that Group IV oils have over the BMW labled oils are largely negated.

8) You want Mobil 1 0w-40 but cant find it. Mobil 1 5w-40 Truck and SUV will work fine. Note it is not not BMW LL approved or ACEA A3 rated, but meets the spec with an HTHS of 4.1.

This is good stuff! I too love reading on Bobistheoil.com.

As far as Sytnec goes: 5W-40 is actually LL-98. 0W-30 is the LL-01 approved oil as per Castrol website. One oil that I forgot about is the Mobil1 Extended Performance oil (Mobil rates it up to 15k), but can't find out if it's LL- approved.

As far as M1 goes, the only ones I would use are 5W-40 and 0W-40, which do shear down to a 30wt after a decent amount of use (yes, M1 30wt oils do get quite thin).

Amsoil is not a "widely available oil" because you need to get it from a dealer. People have had great results, when analyzed, with Castrol 0W-30, also fondly known as German Castrol (GC). I remember, GC used to be green at one point out of the bottle.

[vinuneuro]

Originally Posted by cary

Note that that 35k is subject to qualifications:

1) That you peform regular oil analysis to make sure the oil isn't breaking down,
2) Vehicle is not operated under severe circumstances (or else drop to 15k), and
3) the oil is not used more than 1 year.

Amsoil makes a good oil, but it is no better than Mobil 1. In fact there was a test run (called the space bears study on bobistheoilguy) where the guy ran the oils for about 18k miles with analysis every 1k miles. Guess what, as many have found, Amsoil thickend out of grade over time while the Mobil 1 continued to stay in grade, offer lower wear numbers, and maintain its TBN. This while being cheaper. It is hard to beat Mobil 1's R&D.

Amsoil does tend to thicken. Only one of the oils exhibits this characteristic, 5W-30. This tendancy is only in larger American engines (esp pushrod ones).

[cary]

Originally Posted by vinuneuro

This is good stuff! I too love reading on Bobistheoil.com.

As far as Sytnec goes: 5W-40 is actually LL-98. 0W-30 is the LL-01 approved oil as per Castrol website. One oil that I forgot about is the Mobil1 Extended Performance oil (Mobil rates it up to 15k), but can't find out if it's LL- approved.

As far as M1 goes, the only ones I would use are 5W-40 and 0W-40, which do shear down to a 30wt after a decent amount of use (yes, M1 30wt oils do get quite thin).

Amsoil is not a "widely available oil" because you need to get it from a dealer. People have had great results, when analyzed, with Castrol 0W-30, also fondly known as German Castrol (GC). I remember, GC used to be green at one point out of the bottle.

My understanding is that the only Castrol 0w-30 that was LL-01 approved was the German Stuff which they stopped importing. The current 0w-30 is supposedly not LL-01. Bottom linke check the bottle.

The Mobil EP oils are not LL approved. Only the 0w-40.

The 0w-40 "shearing" is a bunch of crap. It started because some guy with a turbo 1.8T had a ton of fuel dilution that led to the viscosity dropping. If you follow the UOA's for the 0w-40, the only ones where is dropped out of grade are those where there was fuel dilution.

[motordavid]

I read Bob'sOil stuff, too...interesting, but I tend to feel that this "oil issue" has gotten way overblown with today's level of engineering and motors.

Regular or reasonable time period filter changes, any quality name brand oil, reasonable driving habits until warmed up, etc., all seem to provide for very reduced risk of engine wear and motor longevity...

I feel most of it is spec chasing/who's lab or test says what, and a Lot of marketing, both in verbage and packaging.

These are not ProStock cars we are riding around in...

Just my 2Cts.
BR,md

[cary]

You are correct, these aren't pro-stock cars. These are cars that have to meet emission regs, as well as be enviromentally friendly. A pro stock car gets its oil changed every race. Auto manufactures are continuing to explore longer change intervals that are friendlier for the enviroment. Also, oil temps continue to climb in newer motors, leading to sludging issues with mineral oils and necessitating synthetic oils (ala Toyota 4 cyl engines, VW 1.8T motors).

Making a race oil is easy. Load the crap out of it with AW additives and call it a day. After all, the motor won't be started when it is -20f, or have the oil in it for long periods.

Making an oil that can work in eviroments from -30f to 120f+, last for 10k+ miles, minimize wear, not thicken or thin out of grade, not pollute the cat converter, and not create deposits in an engine takes a great deal of work. Manufactures create certain specs because they carefully design their motors around certain oils that balance these factors correctly for their engines. Step outside of this and you are on your own.

In the USA, BMW NA has kind of screwed up, as they have varied from BMW AG's own requirements. They should be requiring and using an oil that meets the newer LL-01 spec, rather than the stuff they are using that just doesn't quite make it for the intervals they are recommending.

[motordavid]

cary,
I don't disagree, but this oil thing is much ado about nothing, imo.
Most brands of syn are so good, the arguements are moot, I believe.
GL,md

[vinuneuro]

Originally Posted by cary

You are correct, these aren't pro-stock cars. These are cars that have to meet emission regs, as well as be enviromentally friendly. A pro stock car gets its oil changed every race. Auto manufactures are continuing to explore longer change intervals that are friendlier for the enviroment. Also, oil temps continue to climb in newer motors, leading to sludging issues with mineral oils and necessitating synthetic oils (ala Toyota 4 cyl engines, VW 1.8T motors).

Making a race oil is easy. Load the crap out of it with AW additives and call it a day. After all, the motor won't be started when it is -20f, or have the oil in it for long periods.

Making an oil that can work in eviroments from -30f to 120f+, last for 10k+ miles, minimize wear, not thicken or thin out of grade, not pollute the cat converter, and not create deposits in an engine takes a great deal of work. Manufactures create certain specs because they carefully design their motors around certain oils that balance these factors correctly for their engines. Step outside of this and you are on your own.

In the USA, BMW NA has kind of screwed up, as they have varied from BMW AG's own requirements. They should be requiring and using an oil that meets the newer LL-01 spec, rather than the stuff they are using that just doesn't quite make it for the intervals they are recommending.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by motordavid

cary,
I don't disagree, but this oil thing is much ado about nothing, imo.
Most brands of syn are so good, the arguements are moot, I believe.
GL,md

Interesting to read about, just wondering how many of us have had an oil-related engine failure on a street car, in the past decade or so.

We should have a new term; us motor-heads can hang together and the oil-heads can line up on the other side of the room.

Cary, welcome to X5 world in any case, good to have you here

Jeff

[cary]

Originally Posted by JCL

Interesting to read about, just wondering how many of us have had an oil-related engine failure on a street car, in the past decade or so.

We should have a new term; us motor-heads can hang together and the oil-heads can line up on the other side of the room.

Cary, welcome to X5 world in any case, good to have you here

Jeff

Thanks for the welcome. Concerning oil failures. This has become an increasingly common problem again. Toyota had to extend their warranty on the 4 cyl and 3.0 V6 motors due to severe sludging in 1999-??? models. VW and Audi have extended their warranty on the 1.8t cars after many of them experience failure due to sludging from dealers not using the properly speced VW 501 oil.

My mechanic has noted that in clients BMW's (they are a independing BMW repair shop) that have followed the 15k interval on the factory Synth that the motors have very noisy valvetrains by 100k and some have had to have the heads rebuilt due to excessive valve guide and drivetrain wear. On the motors that have had an intermediate oil change at about 7500 miles (their recommendatioin), he says they are as tight as a drum.