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  #21  
Old 03-02-2008, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL
You are much better off using good fuel, with sufficient additives, but as that is not always possible there are additives available to correct problems associated with the build-up of deposits. BMW recommends not using additives, but they acknowledge the need in some cases. I just wouldn't ever use them as a preventative measure, given the other problems they can cause.
Listen to JCL. He knows his stuff when it comes to this. It is much better to get good gas like Chevron or other fresh fuels with good detergents every time you fill up then to buy second grade fuel and then try to remedy the issues with fuel system cleaner.

I also noticed about a year ago that the BMW fuel system cleaner I paid twice as much for from the dealer was manufactured by Chevron. I won't ever buy it from the stealer again.
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  #22  
Old 03-02-2008, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkl
I would like to see the actual TSB that recommends using additives every 3k. If that's the case, then there's definitely a design flaw in BMW engines since no other manufacturers have this recommendation. It's a catch22 when using fuel additives. While it's great for fuel injectors and intake valves, the concentrated additives isn't good for alot of the other components in the fuel system.

The TSB has been republished by BMW practically every year now, going on a few years. If I can find a copy I'll try to post it. You should read about the history of carbon deposits on intake valves and so forth. BMW was instrumental in investigating the problem years ago (like in the 80's) and actually did independent testing of fuels to determine how much deposits form for a given fuel. I believe it was called the "BMW Test." They took a brand new engine, took it apart, weighed all the major components very accurately. Put it back together. Ran the engine for 50,000 miles or something like that in a lab and then stripped it again and re-weighed all the components. At the time they determined that Chevron gas was the least offensive, though all gas left deposits. Working with Chevron they decided to package their detergent (Techron) in concentrated form for a cleaning "boost" and recommended to do it on regular intervals to maintain performance. Chevrons own testing determined that Techron was safe for all major engine components and has been in all their grades of gas for decades now. (So I'm not sure where is your data on it not being good for fuel system components maybe you should send it to Chevron.)

As far as other manufacturers recommendations, I really could care less what honda, toyota, or anyone else has to say on the matter...that's why I have a BMW and have only purchased BMW's for the past 30 years.
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  #23  
Old 03-02-2008, 03:44 AM
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One of the BMW TSBs is here:

http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/...p/B130206g.htm

Note that it says to use good quality gasoline. If you can't do so, the 20 oz bottle of Techron is second-best.

I have worked on engines that had an additive poured in, to fix a problem caused by a build-up of deposits. The result was that the deposits were cleaned out, but didn't make it out of the engine. They caused consequential damage to the engine. It was an expensive fix for the owner, involving engine disassembly.

I stand by my previous recommendation: use good quality gas. If you can't, use a Techron-based additive, but realize that they are not without risks.
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  #24  
Old 03-02-2008, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgruber
The TSB has been republished by BMW practically every year now, going on a few years. If I can find a copy I'll try to post it. You should read about the history of carbon deposits on intake valves and so forth. BMW was instrumental in investigating the problem years ago (like in the 80's) and actually did independent testing of fuels to determine how much deposits form for a given fuel. I believe it was called the "BMW Test." They took a brand new engine, took it apart, weighed all the major components very accurately. Put it back together. Ran the engine for 50,000 miles or something like that in a lab and then stripped it again and re-weighed all the components. At the time they determined that Chevron gas was the least offensive, though all gas left deposits. Working with Chevron they decided to package their detergent (Techron) in concentrated form for a cleaning "boost" and recommended to do it on regular intervals to maintain performance. Chevrons own testing determined that Techron was safe for all major engine components and has been in all their grades of gas for decades now. (So I'm not sure where is your data on it not being good for fuel system components maybe you should send it to Chevron.)

As far as other manufacturers recommendations, I really could care less what honda, toyota, or anyone else has to say on the matter...that's why I have a BMW and have only purchased BMW's for the past 30 years.
The BMW deposit test was many years ago, and was similar to a Honda test and a Toyota test. Gasoline at the time did not have sufficient additives at many stations to control deposits on intake valves, a very specific problem that is not the same as the injector problems many manufacturers have had.

EDIT: The SAE report on the Toyota study is here: http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/922265. Note that it is from 1992; as I said, the original issue was many years ago. The BMW test is documented here: http://www.swri.org/3pubs/brochure/d08/qualify/qual.htm. It is from 1985, with the SAE paper presented in 1987 (I belonged to SAE at that time, and remember this series of papers). Given the progress made in the last 25 years in engine technology (ie injector pressures), the tests are interesting but less relevant.

Some other brands use cleaners other than Techron; some brands purchase the rights to use the chemicals that Chevron brands as Techron.

Techron is safe, but not in very high concentrations, IMO. That isn't news to Chevron.
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Last edited by JCL; 03-02-2008 at 04:01 AM.
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  #25  
Old 03-02-2008, 04:28 AM
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Excellent comments, thanks for sharing and also for the great links. I can't believe I was right about the date! (1980's)

While those issues seem to more of the past then the present, speaking to BMW techs lately, high alcohol content in fuel is the current problem. One dealer told me of M3 / M5 owners in particular complaining of huge power losses that they couldn't explain or understand. After lots of diagnosis, it turned out their fuel alcohol content was enormous. The dealer would drain all the fuel and refill the car with specialty fuel they have in tanks and problem was solved. I believe BMW has a SIB on this as well.

In the end I think it basically depends on how one wants to run their car. I know people who change oil every 25,000 miles, never changed coolant, brake fluid, etc. put in the cheapest gas they can find, and have yet to experience any consequences. Personally, without going too overboard, I think that a precision instrument should be maintained accordingly. Thus I use the best gas I can find, only Shell or Chevron and always Super unleaded, and I always add BMW gas additive every 3,000-5,000 miles.
YMMV.
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  #26  
Old 03-02-2008, 02:15 PM
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From what I have read gas mixture is not an exact science. Many factors can affect the mixture. With that in mind how do you know that the gas you purchase has the right level of cleaner in it? What if it is a little low? If you put a bottle of cleaner in your car periodically then you know for sure the engine is being maintained properly.
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  #27  
Old 03-02-2008, 02:46 PM
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i use SEAFOAM additive in the oil system and the fuel system. I've used in the E36 M3 for years now and it runs strong even after 10 years of abuse
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Old 03-02-2008, 02:59 PM
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Anyone use Lubro Molly?
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  #29  
Old 03-02-2008, 03:16 PM
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I think Yamaha also repackages Techron for marine engines.

Carbon in 2 cycle engines can cause the rings to stick/break.
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  #30  
Old 03-02-2008, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NextGen
From what I have read gas mixture is not an exact science. Many factors can affect the mixture. With that in mind how do you know that the gas you purchase has the right level of cleaner in it? What if it is a little low? If you put a bottle of cleaner in your car periodically then you know for sure the engine is being maintained properly.
That's the point and you're right. That's why BMW and several other manufacturers banned together to verify and certify those fuels that meet a certain level of performance and detergent content. That is what Top Tier Gas is all about. And like I said before, in addition to that gas, I add a bottle regularly and so I know at least I am doing my best to keep the car running good.
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