Transmission Reliability

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Ah OK I get it now. It appears to me at least that you believe you have
assumed some sort of moral stand regarding BMW transmissions.
You also believe that BMW is purposely robbing people by installing in
X5's a transmission they know will fail prematurely.

I believe Fraser expressed it this way "BMW has sold 845,000 X5s world wide."
If what you say is true then either 845,000 X5s world wide will
fail prematurely or some will fail. The question then becomes
what are the published facts regarding the amount of
transmissions that have failed according to your recollections that would lead us to presume
that an injustice and terrible wrong has been committed and justice is required?
How many of the 25K members on this board have
transmission troubles that can attributed to some sort of
premature failure BMW planned in order to cheat customers.

I sympathize with anyone who has had difficulties regarding their
transmissions but like all vehicles I have owned I expect that
at some point mechanically something is gonna break. When it
does break I wont believe and I doubt anyone believes there is a
moral conspiracy on the part of BMW to cheat or rob people
regarding transmissions. But then you never know. Someone at BMWNA
may indeed be sitting in a board room trying to figure out
how to rob the next unsuspecting BMW owner.

Good grief, man, your "version" is far more fantastic than anything I was thinking. I simply see a problem with a significant number of X5 transmissions that BMW is not willing to correct as they should. As such, I strongly believe a formal complaint should be and will be filed in order to "assist" BMW in doing the right thing to remedy the issues (monetary losses, etc) associated with a less-than-adequate major component that they had thought to be "maintenance free", and built to last at least 150k miles. Do tell me how/why BMW would have built the X5 believing the transmission would've lasted less than 150k miles under normal conditions? Now THAT would be grounds for investing in the conspiracy theory you outline that I was not implying.

[Quicksilver]

I don't remember BMW ever saying that they provided a component that they had thought to be "maintenance free", and built to last at least 150k miles. (remember I quoted you regarding the ""maintenance free", and built to last at least 150k miles" part

But I was just responding/joking about your previous posts where you said "why do we defend and come to the aid of people being robbed? Because it is wrong, and we know that if there is injustice for one, then none of us can rest assured that we shall have justice." Being robbed.....


I'm just laughing because defending truth and the American way is the motto of
Superman and just may take Superman to reveal the true motive behind those
BMW crooks who are robbing BMW users.

I do agree with you and have already said that if one believes there is indeed
a problem then "PLEASE" get started suing BMW. I'm anxious to see the outcome. Still laughing........

[JCL]

Originally Posted by willgabriel

Do tell me how/why BMW would have built the X5 believing the transmission would've lasted less than 150k miles under normal conditions? Now THAT would be grounds for investing in the conspiracy theory you outline that I was not implying.

BMW never said the transmission would last 150,000 miles. If they wanted to make the transmission last longer, they would simply put a larger and heavier transmission in, add some redundant systems to monitor it, buy sensors and actuators with a lower failure rate, essentially taking a NASA approach to MTBF. The problem with that is that the vehicle would be heavier, slower, less sporting, and more expensive. All of those are going against the philosophy of what they are selling, which is good performance at a certain price point.

I buy new BMWs, and replace them every few years. Others buy 100,000 mile BMWs and worry about transmission failures. Here's the problem: Every policy settlement and gift that BMW gives to those owners well out of warranty makes my next BMW more expensive. If the next vehicle BMW designs is heavier and slower, that is a negative for me. If the price goes up to improve the reliability (and reliability usually costs money....) then the purchase price goes up. I accept the reliability that I paid for. It isn't perfect. I could get much better reliability by trading off other factors, but I choose not to.

I vote against all of the above so-called improvements, and will continue to vote with my wallet. I shouldn't have to pay for other's unrealistic expectations. I don't wish a transmission failure on anybody, but I don't see why I should have to pay for a failure that someone else experiences out of warranty, simply because they feel wronged. If it is under warranty, and hasn't been abused, BMW must fix it. If it isn't, buy an extended warranty and don't expect future BMW purchasers to pay for your loss.

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

I don't remember BMW ever saying that they provided a component that they had thought to be "maintenance free", and built to last at least 150k miles. (remember I quoted you regarding the ""maintenance free", and built to last at least 150k miles" part

But I was just responding/joking about your previous posts where you said "why do we defend and come to the aid of people being robbed? Because it is wrong, and we know that if there is injustice for one, then none of us can rest assured that we shall have justice." Being robbed.....


I'm just laughing because defending truth and the American way is the motto of
Superman and just may take Superman to reveal the true motive behind those
BMW crooks who are robbing BMW users.

I do agree with you and have already said that if one believes there is indeed
a problem then "PLEASE" get started suing BMW. I'm anxious to see the outcome. Still laughing........

So, how long do you think BMW anticipated the X5 transmission would last - under normal conditions - when they installed it? Beyond all the silly nonsense you are "funnin'" with, I'd like to hear a well-thought answer to this most pertinent question ...

[Quicksilver]

100% end of story.

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by JCL

BMW never said the transmission would last 150,000 miles. If they wanted to make the transmission last longer, they would simply put a larger and heavier transmission in, add some redundant systems to monitor it, buy sensors and actuators with a lower failure rate, essentially taking a NASA approach to MTBF. The problem with that is that the vehicle would be heavier, slower, less sporting, and more expensive. All of those are going against the philosophy of what they are selling, which is good performance at a certain price point.

I buy new BMWs, and replace them every few years. Others buy 100,000 mile BMWs and worry about transmission failures. Here's the problem: Every policy settlement and gift that BMW gives to those owners well out of warranty makes my next BMW more expensive. If the next vehicle BMW designs is heavier and slower, that is a negative for me. If the price goes up to improve the reliability (and reliability usually costs money....) then the purchase price goes up. I accept the reliability that I paid for. It isn't perfect. I could get much better reliability by trading off other factors, but I choose not to.

I vote against all of the above so-called improvements, and will continue to vote with my wallet. I shouldn't have to pay for other's unrealistic expectations. I don't wish a transmission failure on anybody, but I don't see why I should have to pay for a failure that someone else experiences out of warranty, simply because they feel wronged. If it is under warranty, and hasn't been abused, BMW must fix it. If it isn't, buy an extended warranty and don't expect future BMW purchasers to pay for your loss.

I am openly laughing at the naivety/willful ignorance that has you believing a "performance" SAV can't have a transmission that SHOULD last at least 150k miles, AND that BMW didn't expect their transmission to last that long from the beginning at the $60k+ price point. BMW transmission are not put under that much stress when compared to other similarly-priced SUV/SAV's that they need to be built more cheaply or lighter to preserve price and/or performance. You go on drinking that Kool-aide if it makes you feel better though ... you and Quicksilver can share a gallon of it as you both have been duped.

[Quicksilver]

I have no clue and I doubt that any other normal BMW owner
knows either. What we do Know is what the warranty period was
and what the options are beyond that and that's about as well
thought out as most people are regarding the issue.

I also know I could have bought an extended warranty which would
have covered certain things to 100k. I choose not to so I understood
the risk when I made that choice. I'm at 62K right now and honestly
I'm not worried about what might happen.

If it breaks I'll fix it or make another choice......

Originally Posted by willgabriel

So, how long do you think BMW anticipated the X5 transmission would last - under normal conditions - when they installed it? Beyond all the silly nonsense you are "funnin'" with, I'd like to hear a well-thought answer to this most pertinent question ...

[JCL]

Originally Posted by willgabriel

So, how long do you think BMW anticipated the X5 transmission would last - under normal conditions - when they installed it? Beyond all the silly nonsense you are "funnin'" with, I'd like to hear a well-thought answer to this most pertinent question ...

Pick me, pick me....

From a technical perspective, you have to separate transmission failures into those that are due to wear-out, and which thus can be predicted in advance by oil sampling, clutch disk wear patterns, load testing, etc. We know from the X5 transmissions that have gone 200,000 miles that the X5 transmissions do have a reasonable life before being worn out. I would even go so far as to say that most if not all failures that we have seen are not due to wearing out, but rather random failures of smaller subcomponents. Those smaller components include plastic pieces in the torque converter, electrical sensors, actuators, software, and so on. The trouble with those sorts of failures is that they are far more random in nature, ie it is hard to draw a bell curve with a predicted reliability rate. (incidentally, it is also why there is such a debate on whether ever changing the transmission fluid really matters, given the nature of the failures that have been documented)

The likely commercial answer is that BMW expects transmissions to go at least 100,000 miles, since they offer extended warranties to that mileage, and such warranties do not appear to be heavily padded to cover the cost of any significant number of transmission failures. If I was the engineer involved in that program, I would have included a safety factor in that calculation, ie more than 100,000 miles.

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

I have no clue and I doubt that any other normal BMW owner
knows either. What we do Know is what the warranty period was
and what the options are beyond that and that's about as well
thought out as most people are regarding the issue.

I also know I could have bought an extended warranty which would
have covered certain things to 100k. I choose not to so I understood
the risk when I made that choice. I'm at 62K right now and honestly
I'm not worried about what might happen.

If it breaks I'll fix it or make another choice......

Fair enough, and I understand and believe in personal responsibility. Yet, as this 2007 Consumer Affairs blurb shows, BMW's response to the transmission issues leaves much to be desired, and in fact, sounds too much like Ford when it came to the Pinto and Toyota about two years ago when they thought they could "get by" with distract and denial tactics. A day of reckoning is coming though ...

Transmission Failures Plague BMW Owners

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by JCL

Pick me, pick me....

From a technical perspective, you have to separate transmission failures into those that are due to wear-out, and which thus can be predicted in advance by oil sampling, clutch disk wear patterns, load testing, etc. We know from the X5 transmissions that have gone 200,000 miles that the X5 transmissions do have a reasonable life before being worn out. I would even go so far as to say that most if not all failures that we have seen are not due to wearing out, but rather random failures of smaller subcomponents. Those smaller components include plastic pieces in the torque converter, electrical sensors, actuators, software, and so on. The trouble with those sorts of failures is that they are far more random in nature, ie it is hard to draw a bell curve with a predicted reliability rate. (incidentally, it is also why there is such a debate on whether ever changing the transmission fluid really matters, given the nature of the failures that have been documented)

The likely commercial answer is that BMW expects transmissions to go at least 100,000 miles, since they offer extended warranties to that mileage, and such warranties do not appear to be heavily padded to cover the cost of any significant number of transmission failures. If I was the engineer involved in that program, I would have included a safety factor in that calculation, ie more than 100,000 miles.

Fair answer. Thanks. I look forward to hearing/reading what BMW says when they are asked the same question under examination ...