X5 4.4 - Sludge in engine and oil filter housing... help!

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by FSETH

OK, so would it be fair to say that you disagree with Mike Miller's, JCL's, etc. opinion that changing the fluid for the first time on an un-maintained, higher mileage (say 100,000 miles) automatic transmission comes with risk of failure due to the fluid?

No, it would not be fair to say that. I agree there is a risk. Why do you keep arguing as if I am not acknowledging there is a risk when I have clearly said there is?

With that said given there is a risk does that translate into an appreciable number of subsequent transmission failures? I have seen no evidence that it does. Hence the claim changing the fluid, while it carries a risk, results in subsequent transmission failures is an urban legend.

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by sunny5280

No, it would not be fair to say that. I agree there is a risk. Why do you keep arguing as if I am not acknowledging there is a risk when I have clearly said there is?

With that said given there is a risk does that translate into an appreciable number of subsequent transmission failures? I have seen no evidence that it does. Hence the claim changing the fluid, while it carries a risk, results in subsequent transmission failures is an urban legend.

Well, with all due respect, when you say "there is no proof showing a correlation between transmission fluid changes and subsequent transmission failures. And that such a claim is nothing but an urban legend.". That sure makes it sounds as though because you have no proof, you don't think there is a risk and it is an urban legend. Do you see how it comes across that way? How else should one interpret what I quoted you on? I am really trying here, but read what you wrote and see if you can understand what I am talking about.

I know you are looking for diffinitive, written in stone proof and I don't really know how I can provide you with that. What I have done is provide you with factual info where BMWCCA's head tech guru has stated that he has personally seen this exact situation happen all too many times. He even gives his thoughts on why this happens. Yes, he does say he would probably chance it and change the fluid in his own car, but if you read the entire article, you can tell that the decision didn't come easy. It does seem like he did some hand wringing over the decision and this leads me to believe the risk is much greater than you are giving it credit for. Well beyond the percentage of urban legend.

So, to sum up; I am basing my info, which I have shared with you, on someone who has years of experience working on cars, is trusted by the BMWCCA, Bimmer Magazine and European Car magazine to feild technical questions and help diagnose problems, etc., other actual members posting in this thread as well as another long-term member who happens to be a tech at a BMW dealer and you are basing your opinions on some mechanic that none of us have ever heard of and that you have failed to prove actually exists. Am I missing something here?

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by FSETH

Well, with all due respect, when you say "there is no proof showing a correlation between transmission fluid changes and subsequent transmission failures. And that such a claim is nothing but an urban legend.". That sure makes it sounds as though because you have no proof, you don't think there is a risk and it is an urban legend. Do you see how it comes across that way? How else should one interpret what I quoted you on? I am really trying here, but read what you wrote and see if you can understand what I am talking about.

I don't think you're trying at all. To go back to my oil change example. If I were to say changing your oil results in a stripped oil pan would you or would you not agree with that statement? Please explain why.

I know you are looking for diffinitive, written in stone proof and I don't really know how I can provide you with that. What I have done is provide you with factual info where BMWCCA's head tech guru has stated that he has personally seen this exact situation happen all too many times. He even gives his thoughts on why this happens. Yes, he does say he would probably chance it and change the fluid in his own car, but if you read the entire article, you can tell that the decision didn't come easy. It does seem like he did some hand wringing over the decision and this leads me to believe the risk is much greater than you are giving it credit for. Well beyond the percentage of urban legend.

I am looking for more than anecdotes. I am looking for something along the lines of:

Out of 100,000 transmissions where the fluid was changed 10,000 of them exhibited a failure. Compare this with 100 (per 100,000) that failed where the fuild was not changed.

So, to sum up; I am basing my info, which I have shared with you, on someone who has years of experience working on cars, is trusted by the BMWCCA, Bimmer Magazine and European Car magazine to feild technical questions and help diagnose problems, etc., other actual members posting in this thread as well as another long-term member who happens to be a tech at a BMW dealer and you are basing your opinions on some mechanic that none of us have ever heard of and that you have failed to prove actually exists. Am I missing something here?

I am basing my information on my mechanic who has 25 years servicing BMW's who states he has observed no increased failures as the result of fluid changes. I am also basing it on the manufacturers recommendation to change it at 100K miles. I am also basing it on my phone calls today to three BMW dealers inquiring into a transmission fluid flush. None of which were reluctant to perform the work. In addition I am partially basing it on both JCL and Mr. Millers statement that the risk is slight (JCLs exact qualifier). And finally I am basing it the complete lack of any supporting evidence. I will remind you the person making a claim ha the burden of proof.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by sunny5280

Imy phone calls today to three BMW dealers inquiring into a transmission fluid flush. None of which were reluctant to perform the work.

Out of curiosity, did they give you some price quotes?

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Out of curiosity, did they give you some price quotes?

Yes, ~$320, ~$360, and ~$370. But I was inquiring about my 328i so I suspect the cost would be slightly higher for the X5. The cost for my mechanic was $300.

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by sunny5280

I don't think you're trying at all. To go back to my oil change example. If I were to say changing your oil results in a stripped oil pan would you or would you not agree with that statement? Please explain why.

I really am...I really am.

Your oil change example is not relevant to what we are discussing. I was not talking about tech error (as in stripped drain plug). I was referring to a flawlessly performed ATF fluid and filter change with the proper parts.

I am looking for more than anecdotes. I am looking for something along the lines of:

Out of 100,000 transmissions where the fluid was changed 10,000 of them exhibited a failure. Compare this with 100 (per 100,000) that failed where the fuild was not changed.

How can you deny the sheer number of BMW issues that Mike Miller deals with? He is on a whole nother level than your guy. If he even exists. So far we have seen no proof of this mystery man.


I am basing my information on my mechanic who has 25 years servicing BMW's who states he has observed no increased failures as the result of fluid changes. I am also basing it on the manufacturers recommendation to change it at 100K miles. I am also basing it on my phone calls today to three BMW dealers inquiring into a transmission fluid flush. None of which were reluctant to perform the work. In addition I am partially basing it on both JCL and Mr. Millers statement that the risk is slight (JCLs exact qualifier). And finally I am basing it the complete lack of any supporting evidence. I will remind you the person making a claim ha the burden of proof.

For the love of God, Mike Miller never said the risk is slight. He said it happens ALL TOO OFTEN! How the hell are you getting "slight chance" from that?

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by sunny5280

Yes, ~$320, ~$360, and ~$370. But I was inquiring about my 328i so I suspect the cost would be slightly higher for the X5. The cost for my mechanic was $300.

Why wouldn't you ask about the car in question, which is the X5? What year is your 328i? e36, e46, e90? What are we talking about here?

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by FSETH

Why wouldn't you ask about the car in question, which is the X5? What year is your 328i? e36, e46, e90? What are we talking about here?

What does it matter? FYI it's a 1999 328i (E46).

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by FSETH

If he even exists. So far we have seen no proof of this mystery man.

The above statement indicates there's no use in discussing this with you further. If you can't make your argument with doubting the existence of my mechanic (because independent BMW mechanics are so rare as to call into question the truthfulness of anyone stating they have one) then there's nothing more to say.

[chefwong]

Bolt Drain and Fill at 5 Qts - $60 on ride requiring Esso LT71141.
I just did another bolt and fill 2 weekends ago.
Pan Drop and Fill - IF memory serves me correct, it took around 8-9 qts.

Fluid ain't rocket science. Such a heated debate. DO what makes you comfortable. Just make sure you are putting in the correct fluids...