REPLACING TIMING CHAIN GUIDE RAILS

[Isambard]

Hi all,

I just had a nasty shock the other day when I heard a ticking/knocking sound coming from the engine. It got worse as I was driving to my friends garage for him to investigate further, when I got there it was now sounding like a tractor!!

He said its the plastic guide rail that has deteriorated and the knocking/ticking sound is the chain slapping about.

I have read many threads here about similar problems, but they are all mainly about the changing of the timing chain, or VANOS unit as a whole etc. I just need to know how long/big of a job/what tools (if any) are required to change JUST the chain guide(s) for a 2001 4.4 euro, with 100k miles.

Thanks

[m5james]

You need to stop running that motor until you drop the oilpan and find ALL the pieces before they start making there way around the engine. I'm dead serious, do NOT start that engine again until you've checked everything thoroughly, replaced the guide rail, etc.. That happened to me in my 7 while doing 80 down the highway, but before I could even do anything, the timing jumped and the motor ate itself alive. Replacing that guide is no easy task as it requires removing the whole front of the motor, so short of pulling the motor and/or the entire front end off your car, you're going to have your work cutout for you. I've got PDF's on timing, adjustments, etc if you'd like them, then I'm sure people like myself, Weasel, JCL and MAYBE another BMW tech (tends to be a little grumpy, but we know who he is aka kill ) can help you get this resolved. I hope it's not too late though.

[J.Belknap]

Isambard, if you follow this link, there's a .pdf attached in the first post that includes 4.6iS timing parts.

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...-attached.html

I copied a potion of the parts of that .pdf as you can see below..... since these are for a 4.6iS check here:

RealOEM.com Online BMW Parts Catalog

...to see what the exact confirmed correct parts for your 4.4i are.

In any case, this should give you a *ballpark* idea of the parts involved.

RealOEM.com Section RealOEM.com Diagram Title Diagram # Part Description Quantity Part Number Price (Each)

[11-10] Lower Timing Case 3 Shaft seal, 48X65X10 QTY 1 11141275466 $30.02
[11-10] Lower Timing Case 6 GASKET SET CHAIN CASE QTY 1 11141436978 $28.00
[11-10] Upper Timing case 3 Gasket ring, 8,1X3,5X7,7 QTY 1 11141736758 $2.48
[11-10] Upper Timing case 4 PROFILE-GASKET, ZYL.1-4 QTY 1 11141741532 $10.69
[11-10] Upper Timing case 5 PROFILE-GASKET, ZYL.5-8 QTY 1 11141741533 $10.69
[11-10] Upper Timing case 9 GASKET-FLANGE QTY 2 11141435023 $12.74
[11-10] Upper Timing case 13 O-ring, 17X3 QTY 2 12141748398 $1.74
[11-10] Engine Block Mounting Parts 1 Cap with seal QTY 1 11141742042 $76.03
[11-10] Engine Block Mounting Parts 3 Cover QTY 1 11141736106 $16.37
[11-10] OIL LEVEL INDICATOR 14 O-ring 15,0X5,0 QTY 1 11431707164 $4.06
[11-10] OIL LEVEL INDICATOR 20 O-ring 9X2,2 QTY 2 11431717666 $0.73
[11-10] OIL LEVEL INDICATOR 5 Gasket Steel QTY 1 11137500261 $24.02
[11-10] OIL LEVEL INDICATOR 9 Oil Levelling Sensor QTY 1 12617508003 $163.50
[11-15] Cylinder Head Attached Parts (VANOS) 8 non-return valve QTY 2 11121706921 $16.11
[11-15] Cylinder Head Attached Parts (VANOS) 9 O-ring13X1,5 QTY 2 11121706927 $0.58
[11-15] Cylinder Head Cover 2 Set of profile gaskets, ZYL.1-4 QTY 1 11120034104 $48.06
[11-15] Cylinder Head Cover 3 Cover lid QTY 1 11127509328 $10.35
[11-15] Cylinder Head Cover 6 Set of profile gaskets, ZYL.5-8 QTY 1 11120034105 $48.06
[11-15] Cylinder Head Cover 8 PROFILE-GASKET QTY 2 11121733969 $15.77
[11-15] Cylinder Head Cover 11 Rubber seal QTY 16 11121437395 $1.70
[11-15] Cylinder Head Cover 13 Rubber seal QTY 6 11121721879 $1.74
[11-15] Cylinder Head Cover 14 spacer sleeve with O-ring QTY 4 11121715404 $2.94
[11-15] Cylinder Head Cover 15 Gasket ring QTY 4 61311459030 $1.67
[11-18] BELT DRIVE-VIBRATION DAMPER 6 Collar screw QTY 1 11231736585 $6.43
[11-25] Chain Tensioner parts lower 6 DEFLECTION RAIL QTY 1 11311741777 $114.87
[11-25] Chain Tensioner parts lower 13 GUIDE RAIL QTY 1 11311745406 $32.22
[11-25] Chain Tensioner parts lower 16 CHAIN TENSIONER QTY 1 11311741236 $95.44
[11-25] Chain Tensioner parts lower 19 CHAIN TENSIONER QTY 1 11317531813 $78.27
[11-25] Chain Tensioner parts lower 20 Gasket ring A22X27-AL QTY 1 07119963355 $0.36
[11-25] Timing Gear Chain Top (VANOS) 1 Camshaft adjuster unit with imion QTY 2 11367515357 $520.38
[11-25] Timing Gear Chain Top (VANOS) 2 DISTRIBUTION PIECE ZYL.1-4 QTY 1 11361433660 $54.68
[11-25] Timing Gear Chain Top (VANOS) 2 DISTRIBUTION PIECE ZYL.5-8 QTY 1 11361433664 $54.68
[11-25] Timing Gear Chain Top (VANOS) 3 Gasket Steel ZYL.1-4 QTY 1 11361705578 $6.08
[11-25] Timing Gear Chain Top (VANOS) 3 Gasket Steel ZYL.5-8 QTY 1 11361705579 $6.08
[11-25] Timing Gear Chain Top (VANOS) 9 Solenoid Valve (SOLV) QTY 2 11367524489 $178.00
[11-25] Chain Tensioner parts top 13 CHAIN TENSIONER ZYL.1-4 QTY 1 11311435026 $127.43
[11-25] Chain Tensioner parts top 13 CHAIN TENSIONER ZYL.5-8 QTY 1 11311435027 $127.43
[11-25] Chain Tensioner parts top 14 SLIDING PIECE QTY 4 11311435028 $4.98
[11-25] Chain Tensioner parts top 15 Clip QTY 2 11311742176 $4.32
[11-25] Chain Tensioner parts top 16 O-ring 7,1X1,8 QTY 2 07119906361 $0.46
[11-25] VALVE TIMING GEAR - CAMSHAFT 2 RECTANGRING QTY 6 11311705512 $5.62

Again, those parts are for a 4.6iS, so be sure to check RealOEM.com Online BMW Parts Catalog

Hope that at least points you in the right direction. Unsure if any difference, but that's what I replaced for the timing guide refresh. And it's up to you, but if the oil separator system, coolant valley pan, and rear coolant crossover gaskets need refreshing, might as well imho. Valve covers might be ready for a good cleaning, blasting, and powercoat of the top side. It's a slippery slope between "if it's good, leave it be" or "it's overlapping work, might as well" (at least it was for me).

Hope that helps,

- J

[J.Belknap]

James, JCL, killcrap, Weasel, and the rest of the experts...

If plastic bits have a chance of being in the oiling system.... can the system be backflushed?

[Isambard]

Thank you very much for your responses guys.

James, the car is at my friends garage and will stay there until he's fixed it. I dropped it off there as I knew it was something bad, and so I have his car for now..

I dont think the timing has jumped because she was still running sweet with no misfire or lumpiness. And I made sure I took it really easy until I dropped her off-barely getting over 2000rpm, and taking it really smoothly to reach it.

Guys, do you think I need to do all the things J. Belknap has done? Do I not just need the guides, and the gaskets/seals etc? Assuming there is no other damage found..

Also, you guys 'across the pond' talk about 'valley pans', or 'oil pans' is that the same as our 'sumps'? Sorry to be ignorant to your terminology, but I want to be sure we are talking about the same thing.

Basically I just need to know the bare bones of what is required, and then get the things I find damaged etc later and replace if needed. I totally understand your way of doing things J. Belknap, I'm just praying I dont have to go to that extreme and just replace the guides. Or am I wrong to expect/hope this?

Your beast's engine bay is a piece of art by the way J. Belknap!

Once again, thanks very much for your advice.

Ian

[m5james]

Ehh, I fear the damage is already done by the way he explained how the engine sounded. As long as he can make doubly sure the timing hasn't jumped, he might have a chance to save this engine. It's really too soon to tell at this point if it'd even be worth the effort of trying to backflush.

[Sergei-e]

Originally Posted by m5james

Ehh, I fear the damage is already done by the way he explained how the engine sounded. As long as he can make doubly sure the timing hasn't jumped, he might have a chance to save this engine. It's really too soon to tell at this point if it'd even be worth the effort of trying to backflush.

Hi m5james,

My X5, 2001, 4.4 has done the same at 270k.
I got the front of the engine apart and discovered that the plastic lining on the entire V deflection rail is gone and there is a substantial slack on the chain. The camshafts location @ the 1cyl. TDC seem to be slightly off and the chain was kinda clicking and skipping when I was aligning the TDC rotating the vibration damper pulley by hand.
I was not far away from home when the car started this "ticking" noise and I parked it on my driveway and haven't driven it after. The codes were cam shaft VANOS control cyl. 1-4 and knock sensor cyl. 1-2. I have replaced both sensors and tried to start the vehicle couple times - it started no problem, although the sound of the cold engine was accompanied by a loud clanking rattle that would disappear @ about 1500-2000 rpm (of idle run). I did not hear any other unusual sounds. The rattle by itself was quite unusual and I shut down the car and haven't started it since.
With 270K on the engine I will go to full extend and replace both timing adjustment units, their solenoids,timing chain, all guides, and all the tensioners and the distributor piece with the total cost of parts approaching $2,500 ...if only the engine is repairable.
You guys have probably seen these cases a lot and may give a good advise. What would be the safest way of approaching the repair? Is it possible to check the engine somehow to make sure it is repairable before investing an all the parts? I have purchased the timing adjustment tool and it is coming tomorrow.
I appreciate your help and expertise a lot.
Thank you.

[m5james]

I'd double check now before ever starting the car again, it can be costly if you decide to start cutting corners now.

JK's list is pretty extensive, but as he said, you're going to be it there doing some major open heart surgery...do you really want to skimp on $20 here and $30 there with what's happened? I can't make you replace more than what is needed, but at the same time, IMHO it'd be foolish not to.

Valley pan refers to the area sitting inside the V of the engine, underneath the intake manifold. I preach to people all the time that 80-100k is the time to replace EVERY single piece of the cooling system...radiator, hoses, thermostat, water pump, valley pan gasket, hoses, etc You're going to be taking off a TON of things as is, so no better time than now to refresh all the auxiliary components that bolt onto the engine as well.

You're way past bare bones brotha...do you really wanna take short cuts now? I HIGHLY doubt you're going to be getting away with replacing only the guides, but then again, even if you do, you've got a bunch of things that I'd be replacing while you're in there that knuckle deep anyways. Yeah, I thing you're wrong to expect to get away with a few hundred dollar repair.

[Isambard]

Yep, I hear you loud and clear, thanks James. You're right, I suppose I'm still in shock that this has happened to me-never had ANYTHING like this in my 20 years of driving. Especially seeing as its a V8. Especially seeing as its a BMW!!! Its like they planted a frigging 'this is gonna cost you big at some point' timebomb in your car!!!

I'll talk to my friend tomorrow and go through all this with him to make sure we're on the same page. He's a good mechanic, and I wouldn't trust my cars with anyone else, especially something as important as this, but we still need to be on the same page, right?!

Thank you again. Sorry to hear about your 7 series too, thats heartbreaking.

[m5james]

Originally Posted by Isambard

Yep, I hear you loud and clear, thanks James. You're right, I suppose I'm still in shock that this has happened to me-never had ANYTHING like this in my 20 years of driving. Especially seeing as its a V8. Especially seeing as its a BMW!!! Its like they planted a frigging 'this is gonna cost you big at some point' timebomb in your car!!!

I'll talk to my friend tomorrow and go through all this with him to make sure we're on the same page. He's a good mechanic, and I wouldn't trust my cars with anyone else, especially something as important as this, but we still need to be on the same page, right?!

Thank you again. Sorry to hear about your 7 series too, thats heartbreaking.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I'd hate to see you go through all that work of disassembly, trying to take some shortcuts, going through all the reassembly just to start the engine and have some little oversite bite you in the butt and have the engine do to itself what happened to mine. Trust me, these motors are pretty strong and will last, it's just BMW cheaped out themselves in the wrong places...plastic guide rails? My situation was slightly different in that I bought the 7 used and the previous owner had overheated the engine, so the headgaskets were replaced. The shop did that the work failed to properly torque the guide down, so mine failed due to it falling off completely. Naturally none of this was discovered on the buyers inspection when I asked about the ticking noise the engine made, but it was such a deal and the car was in immaculate condition inside and out, so I took the chance. Not more than 3-4 weeks later and bam...that's all she wrote. Once my rebuilder tore the engine down is when I learned about what the PO had done, but thankfully my repairs, while expensive, got me into basically a brand new engine.

Thanks for your kind words. I was a little upset at first, but then when I got into researching the motor, I was actually kind of excited once I found the people who completely rebuilt mine since I was able to knock a lot of forced induction issues of the list with the sleeved block, camwork, etc. while the engine was apart. Granted I didn't have the car for about 3 months, but in the end, it was all worth it.