X5 4.6 Build

[JCL]

I have never had a problem with Mobil 1 oils. I would be comfortable using them in my BMW.

On the other hand, I won't ever use an Amsoil oil, as the company just smacks of internet hucksterism. Their marketing model stresses pyramid sales strategies over product quality and importantly to me, product validation.

Amsoil products have not historically had API certifications. They try and trick readers by using phrases such as "suitable for applications that call for API xx...." when they should just come out and say they don't meet the API specs. They hide behind a wall of secrecy using the phrase "proprietary formulation of additives", which is fine, but to those of us who believe in independent validation, such as API, it just means that they are selling undocumented mystery oil, and they are free to change the formulation any time they like, and not tell their customers. That is just nonsense IMO.

Amsoil has now come out with some lower cost oils that are certified to the API spec. Good for them. Makes their previous complains that they couldn't afford to do it seem silly, since they are doing it for their cheaper oils. However, here is the catch. They advise that these oils can not last for the change intervals recommended by BMW, where as the oils with the 'secret sauce' can go several times the BMW recommendation. BS.

Slick, that Amsoil OE oil (another low price point oil that they sell) would be a really bad idea in a gasoline engine BMW in North America. It is an LL-04 spec. BMW had to issue a technical bulletin years ago advising that they were seeing oil breakdown on LL-04 oils in gasoline engines in North America, due to the fuel quality. IIRC correctly it was an interaction between the ethanol, and the sulphur level, with the additives used in an LL-04 oil. No problem on diesel. But putting that in your vehicle is a huge step backwards from a proper oil. Their internet sales model is hard at work, selling the concept of BMW certifications, when they should know full well the downside of the combination they are selling. They are just hoping their customers aren't well informed. Again, they take a hit on reputation.

[SlickGT1]

Originally Posted by JCL

I have never had a problem with Mobil 1 oils. I would be comfortable using them in my BMW.

On the other hand, I won't ever use an Amsoil oil, as the company just smacks of internet hucksterism. Their marketing model stresses pyramid sales strategies over product quality and importantly to me, product validation.

Amsoil products have not historically had API certifications. They try and trick readers by using phrases such as "suitable for applications that call for API xx...." when they should just come out and say they don't meet the API specs. They hide behind a wall of secrecy using the phrase "proprietary formulation of additives", which is fine, but to those of us who believe in independent validation, such as API, it just means that they are selling undocumented mystery oil, and they are free to change the formulation any time they like, and not tell their customers. That is just nonsense IMO.

Amsoil has now come out with some lower cost oils that are certified to the API spec. Good for them. Makes their previous complains that they couldn't afford to do it seem silly, since they are doing it for their cheaper oils. However, here is the catch. They advise that these oils can not last for the change intervals recommended by BMW, where as the oils with the 'secret sauce' can go several times the BMW recommendation. BS.

Slick, that Amsoil OE oil (another low price point oil that they sell) would be a really bad idea in a gasoline engine BMW in North America. It is an LL-04 spec. BMW had to issue a technical bulletin years ago advising that they were seeing oil breakdown on LL-04 oils in gasoline engines in North America, due to the fuel quality. IIRC correctly it was an interaction between the ethanol, and the sulphur level, with the additives used in an LL-04 oil. No problem on diesel. But putting that in your vehicle is a huge step backwards from a proper oil. Their internet sales model is hard at work, selling the concept of BMW certifications, when they should know full well the downside of the combination they are selling. They are just hoping their customers aren't well informed. Again, they take a hit on reputation.

This is good. I always had the same feeling. Thanks man. Really taking this info to heart.

So what do you put in your high perf Euro engine?

[JCL]

Originally Posted by SlickGT1

This is good. I always had the same feeling. Thanks man. Really taking this info to heart.

So what do you put in your high perf Euro engine?

Castrol, Mobil 1, or BMW OE. No LL-04. API-SM. 5w-30. The BMW oil is just as easy for me, since the dealer price isn't particularly high, and they also sell real OE filters.

[tynashracing]

It's so easy to dismiss a company due to the way they market?!

I don't know, I don't have a dog in this fight. I've never used their product but have heard people exclaim how well Amsoil has worked for them.

I seem to recall though that if you're going to use Mobil 1 synthetic...look for the red capped bottles. Sounds crazy I know...but that must have been the good/real stuff prior to the change in formula. Seems the bottles are capped with silver caps now.


If one of the premier engine builders for BMW racers in the USA is touting the benefits of Amsoil and Redline....there's probably a reason. Or, is it just that he's making money off those sales and hopes that the Amsoil will prematurely destroy an engine?

I suspect he's seen his fair share of damage with those using "off the shelf" oil and has witnessed something different with Amsoil and Redline fluids?!

[JCL]

I find it easy to deny my business to companies that have misleading marketing practices. Maybe that is just me.

I look for independent certification to published standards, things like API, rather than the colour of the packaging.

I don't know the anonymous engine builder, but since Amsoil operates a multilevel marketing program, he is most likely getting paid for his recommendation. That is how Amsoil, Amway , etc, operate. What is in it for him? A percentage. He doesn't have to hope for an engine failure, that would be a logical fallacy. He just gets to collect his share of the sales.

Redline? Another oil that doesn't typically certify to independent standards, such as API. They are the ones that say to use their Dexron-clone ATF in ZF transmissions, despite the known problems associated with doing so.

[tynashracing]

Originally Posted by JCL

I find it easy to deny my business to companies that have misleading marketing practices. Maybe that is just me.

I look for independent certification to published standards, things like API, rather than the colour of the packaging.

I don't know the anonymous engine builder, but since Amsoil operates a multilevel marketing program, he is most likely getting paid for his recommendation. That is how Amsoil, Amway , etc, operate. What is in it for him? A percentage. He doesn't have to hope for an engine failure, that would be a logical fallacy. He just gets to collect his share of the sales.

Redline? Another oil that doesn't typically certify to independent standards, such as API. They are the ones that say to use their Dexron-clone ATF in ZF transmissions, despite the known problems associated with doing so.

A Ponzi Scheme Called America

I would suggest that the worlds economy is one big ponzi scheme.

JCL, you're obviously very well versed in these issues and respected for your opinions.
How much does it cost to play in the game of "certification"? Do you think cost could be a factor...or is it free for companies to have their oil "certified"?
You're smart, you know where I'm going with this. I honestly don't know the answer, but suspect that it's probably quite expensive to "certify"...which knocks out any of the small competitors to the large multi-nationals.

"Independent"...define Independent analysis/certification. Yes, I'm quite skeptical that these "findings/certifications" are completely and totally independent...unless they're getting paid an enormous amount of money for such certifications...which again puts me back to my first concern with small companies not being able to compete. I've seen in too many cases where the game is rigged. Heck, our entire energy policy here in the US is rigged. Uggghhh.

No doubt, there's a part of me that wants the underdog to win. I'm sick of the multi-nationals calling all the shots. If Stickley is making money off of a client using Amsoil...it can't be much. Not to mention, it's very easy to sign up and buy it directly from Amsoil.
Like I said, no dog in this fight. My last oil change, I actually used Mobil 1 5/30 extended life. I used it because it was available and wanted to see if I liked the oil or not. I'm not going to use it on my next oil change. I'm going to put my money with the underdog and see what happens. If I don't like the oil...I'll report back.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by tynashracing

JCL, you're obviously very well versed in these issues and respected for your opinions.
How much does it cost to play in the game of "certification"? Do you think cost could be a factor...or is it free for companies to have their oil "certified"?
You're smart, you know where I'm going with this. I honestly don't know the answer, but suspect that it's probably quite expensive to "certify"...which knocks out any of the small competitors to the large multi-nationals.

It costs money to certify. But if cost was the reason, then why would Amsoil come out with multiple lines of API-certified oil, at a lower price point? They could afford the cost of certification there. But not for the products they refer to as their premium products?

I suspect it isn't cost, but flexibility. By not certifying, they retain the ability to change the recipe from batch to batch, if they want. At no incremental cost. And they get to perpetuate the underdog myth, the small company against the giants. They go to great lengths to keep that going.

Or maybe they spend so much money developing super oil that they then can't afford to test it. No, I think I'll go with theory A.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by tynashracing

.....My last oil change, I actually used Mobil 1 5/30 extended life. I used it because it was available and wanted to see if I liked the oil or not. I'm not going to use it on my next oil change. I'm going to put my money with the underdog and see what happens. If I don't like the oil...I'll report back.

I am interested in what your criteria is for liking an oil or not, over a single oil change cycle.

I have seen lots of posters refer to having good results on a particular oil in their vehicle, over a relatively short period of time. Without multiple oil samples and trend lines, without control samples or base lines, I don't know how to judge the validity of the recommendation.